The High Groove - Cornering 101

[ramenite]

No, braking points vary for everyone.

Braking is about two things. And both will affect your braking point. One is slowing the car down. So if I just don't press the pedal as hard as you, my braking point is going to be sooner than yours.

Second thing is weight transfer. Braking puts more weight on the front of the car. Depending on the setup, you may need a little more weight in the front for it to "bite" into the corner and turn. Brakes aren't JUST for slowing the car down.

These things combined will tell you when you should brake. And you may need to adjust these as the run goes on.

There's one constant you need to be concerned with. Corner speed. HOW you get to that corner speed doesn't matter. Some people like to brake as late as possible, and just use every bit of braking power they have, and have their cars set up to handle the weight transfer for it. Some other people--like the writer--believe in smoother driving, and spread out the effects of the weight transfer and make the car a bit easier to drive.

I'm a follower of the latter. I find if I need to hit a corner at 137, it is a lot easier if it's eased into. I can pick a spot, hit the brakes 1/2 way and get to 137 by my turn-in point. I can also go 20-30 feet past that point, threshold brake(use all my braking power, just shy of locking wheels) and still slow down to 137. But the former, I can hit that 137 lap after lap. the latter? I may get it 1/2 the time, the other 1/2 I get to 134 and have to give it more throttle, or get to 139 and have to break DURING the turn(referred to as trail braking). Neither method is going to give me any real speed advantage over the other. But when I'm in 2nd, and 1/2 second behind 1st and 3rd is on my arse, what method do you think is going to hold up under the pressure?

[mwjr]

Re: The High Groove - Cornering 101

So...
1. Coming off the straightaway, I've got the throttle floor. Lift off the throttle.
2. Ease down on the break to slow down to cornering speed.
3. Coast through turn, at apex ease into the accelerator?

Is that about right?

[Bahnzo]

Re: The High Groove - Cornering 101

So...
1. Coming off the straightaway, I've got the throttle floor. Lift off the throttle.
2. Ease down on the break to slow down to cornering speed.
3. Coast through turn, at apex ease into the accelerator?

Is that about right?

I'd say you ideally want to combine 1 & 2. While you are coming off the throttle you want to be coming on the brake. This keeps the car balanced and helps avoid any sudden shift in weight. Works for both oval and road racing.

Most times you never really want to be coasting through a turn. You are always fastest when you are braking to the last moment and then accelerating immediately after. This isn't always possible, but that's the idea anyways.

[CMH]

This is why I try to give every sport some respect no matter how much I dislike it. The size of this article and it's all about racing and not only that, but one small aspect of racing. Wow. Great job here, Terry. This is sports video game coverage.

[mwjr]

Re: The High Groove - Cornering 101

I'd say you ideally want to combine 1 & 2. While you are coming off the throttle you want to be coming on the brake. This keeps the car balanced and helps avoid any sudden shift in weight. Works for both oval and road racing.

Most times you never really want to be coasting through a turn. You are always fastest when you are braking to the last moment and then accelerating immediately after. This isn't always possible, but that's the idea anyways.

OK, was trying this out yesterday, and I think I'm starting to get it.

But here's my dilemma: you and Terry mention the idea of braking vs. decelerating, with the former being a faster option to get you in and out of turns. But if I'm on the gas full-bore, and I come to a corner, I have to lift off the gas (i.e. decelerate), right? So does that mean I should wait until the latest moment, decelerate and squeeze the brake simultaneously?

[Hellisan]

Great article.... Love to read stuff like this.

[kennytomson]

Re: The High Groove - Cornering 101

OK, was trying this out yesterday, and I think I'm starting to get it.

But here's my dilemma: you and Terry mention the idea of braking vs. decelerating, with the former being a faster option to get you in and out of turns. But if I'm on the gas full-bore, and I come to a corner, I have to lift off the gas (i.e. decelerate), right? So does that mean I should wait until the latest moment, decelerate and squeeze the brake simultaneously?

i'm a little confused on that as well. so there is a point during the lap that the driver will be pushing both pedals at the same time? it always seems during qualifying on TV that the HUD never has the red and green lit up at once. usally the driver will let up entirely off the gas and then brake (example below).

http://youtube.com/watch?v=LvWWlAI6F8s&feature=related

[TCrouch]

Re: The High Groove - Cornering 101

It really depends on the track, and the driver, obviously. The basis for the entire thing is to keep the car's weight centered. Bahnzo and I disagree completely on the style. He thinks that there should never be a time that you're off both pedals, and I think that pushing it in way too hard leads to inconsistency and tearing up the tires unnecessarily. I tried to explain the safest and most consistent method for cornering, and I used to be of Bahnzo's mindset as well. It wasn't until a hardcore simracer buddy of mine showed up a few years back and turned faster laps on everything using my setups, my PC, and my equipment, that I was open for the explanation. He explained the "rolling through" concept, where you decelerate and coast through the corner, and it made perfect sense. If you drive it in as deep as possible, and overshoot the brake point the smallest bit, you're going to have to overbrake and lose time. If you are constantly going back and forth between gas/brake, you're going to be less smooth. Any time you have drivers with identical setups, the "roll through" method will beat out the late-in, hard brake setup with drivers of equal abilities. It's just too tough to save tires through an entire fuel run pushing a car so hard, but it can be done. The margin for error is just miniscule, and it's more of a hotlapping/qualifying style than actual racing.

As for trail-braking, where you have both feet working, it will vary from track to track. At a track like Phoenix (as in the Youtube vid) where you're going to dip into turn three pretty quickly, you don't have a ton of time to get happy with the pedals. There's a fraction of a second at the end of the backstraight where you'll see Jr. still on the throttle and applying brake, as with almost any graph that you'll see. If you spend too much time trying to balance the ratio of throttle-to-brake application, you're going to lose time anyway. The trick is to just get the car down to cornering speed as smoothly as possible, and not tearing up the rubber in the process. My method will vary from Bahnzo's (obviously), and tons of other people out there.

But for the people who would get the most out of the article (meaning newbies), it was based around keeping the car stable and smooth into and through a corner, and learning very simple practical applications for double-footing it help immensely for tracks later where they're needed. Even then, we're talking about a fraction of a second here, not a long, drawn out process that lasts forever.

[Jeff_Downey]

That's a catchy name for a racing column.

[TCrouch]

Re: The High Groove - Cornering 101

Jeff!! How have you been??

Ladies and gentlemen, Mr. Downey is the original author of The High Groove when I came onto OS in '99 or '00. Talk about time flying...

[Bahnzo]

Re: The High Groove - Cornering 101

I don't know about "completely" but I certainly have learned from all the sim racing that I've done that if you aren't braking, then you better be accelerating. Keep in mind I don't necessarily mean you should be on the gas all the way, but just enough to keep your speed in the corner. There are corners/track where it makes sense to "coast" in the corner (Martinsville comes to mind) but IMO they are few and far between.

And I also don't mean you should be braking hard all the way. You should do most of your braking before you enter a corner, but still using some brake as you continue into the corner entry.

One thing we do completely agree on however is the need to be smoooooth into a corner. Upsetting the balance of a car, either by letting up all the way on the throttle suddenly or braking really hard helps no-one. Smooth inputs between throttle, brake, and steering are crucial. How you get about to doing that may vary.

Some concepts work better for road racing than they do for NASCAR. With NASCAR your vehicle is so heavy that you generally need to do more braking earlier. With a high performance road car, you can do more braking deep into the corner because the car will allow it. And of course you want to balance the way you do it as far as "hot lap" vs "race". The real fast people are those that can find a medium between pushing the car to it limits, corner after corner, without over driving it to the point your gains are lost due to worn tires (or spinning the car).

[Steve_OS]

Re: The High Groove - Cornering 101

That's a catchy name for a racing column.

What's up Jeff! Hope all is well brother!

[kennytomson]

Re: The High Groove - Cornering 101

method has worked great for a newbie like me who's just trying to get through a race in one piece.

-tap the break 2-3 car lengths before the turn
-coast through the turn, or at least 55% of it
-slowly accelerate out of corner

eventually through the race you get more brave with your break spot, breaking later, and also with when to accelerate (though you almost always spin out when you get too aggressive out of the turn).

[ramenite]

Re: The High Groove - Cornering 101

Well, in a car you should NEVER press both the gas and brake at the same time.

He's the problem with games, and I'm not sure where Nascar 09 falls. It depends if they combine the axises on the throttle and brake. In other words, if I'm full on the throttle, and I hit the brake with the single axis--it's no different than if I just let off the accelerator. It also has to do with what pedals send as an axis. Some of the less expensive wheels only report one axis for the pedals, others such as the Logitech MOMO and G25 separate them.

If you separate them, and if you're in a realcar--you need to let off the accelerator fully before you press the brake. One or the other, but never both.

[RunN1st]

Re: The High Groove - Cornering 101

This article came just at the right time for me. I'm currently teaching my 6 yr. old boy and 8 yr. old girl racing 101.

Off topic:
They are currently playing Forza 2 and Mater National Championship racing. They enjoy Forza 2 more than the CARS game!
:wink: