Madden NFL 09 2008 Super Bowl Video (IGN)

[Ian_Cummings]

Re: Madden NFL 09 2008 Super Bowl Video (IGN)

We'll see, but I don't see how the game could be great when it's lacking in so many key fundamental areas. There's obviously nice things going on with the game, and the graphics pop. But the animations are very questionable at times. This video is a good example - it gives the game an unnatural and rehearsed feel. It's like the game is trying to call what the devs feel are "cool" animations, instead of appropriate ones - like defensive ends getting flipped for example. Let alone when they're getting flipped in unison. It's more like the offensive/defensive line is an afterthought where there's no individuality, little sense that these guys are engaging in their own individual battles while trying to work cohesively as a group. The game looks much improved, but if you have to throw out the caveat of looking past the OL/DL play, WR/DB play, QB play, etc., I don't see how the game is to a point where it can be considered great - at least from a gameplay standpoint

I guess I call a game that is fun to play a great game. Just wondering out loud if say we deliver those 3 things above in 2010, will you then point out some other fundamental area that you feel is lacking? Would I then see a post for Madden 2010 saying "Sure they have better OL/DL, WR/DB, and QB play, but the players still don't pile on to the ball when there is a fumble. How can EA consider this game great when they are lacking in such fundamental areas as this?"

What I mean is, (and not trying to sound condescending...trying to ask a valid question), will all the additions in the world ever outweigh the constant drive to be critical and push the game farther? Realistically...won't there always be something in real life that we just aren't simulating in a video game? Or do you think there will be a point where you are like "Holy Crap this is the game of my dreams...don't change anything!"?

[RealmK]

Re: Madden NFL 09 2008 Super Bowl Video (IGN)

Theres a difference between a natural looking sync with the offensive lineman and the identical animations and approach and follow engagement blocking in the video. All 3 offensive lineman used the EXACT same animation, frame for frame, from the beginning to the end of the block. It looked really scripted, the defensive lineman also almost react in the exact same manner.

In real life while they would be in sync, but the way they move into the block, technique and engagement would be varied. Their arms, legs and the animations after engaging the different defensive lineman would be varied because the battle between different athletes differs because of various reason such as strength, weight, technique, balance, and angle of attack.

The sync in the video looks unnatural that would be obvious to anyone who watches it.


As for your defense of RB de-cleating and plowing over the defensive lineman. There are many problems with what happened in the video. First of all Maroney is running nearly straight up when he is approaching the incoming defender, he hits the dt while standing nearly straight up, the collision then de-cleats the 300 pound defensive lineman, yet there no reaction to Maroney's upper body from the collision.
Realistic?, huh, No reaction from a collision that de-cleated a defensive lineman outweighing maroney by 80 pounds, a collision in which he was standing straight up.

Some of you guys sure do nitpick the smallest things. RB's DO stiff arm DT's in the NFL, watch real football sometime, these guys are pro players and routienely pull off plays they prolly shouldn't for their size.

As for the Oline animations, getting all upset over the Oline using the same animation is really silly. Oh gods I can't buy the game now! When the Oline shifts they don't have super special different animations for each guy! the world is going to end!

Add to that its been said time and time again that Off/Def line issues that are well documented will be addressed, theres only so many months in a dev cycle and only so much focus you can put on a particular thing. I'd rather they do it right and not half *** it, thanks very much.

[RealmK]

Re: Madden NFL 09 2008 Super Bowl Video (IGN)

I guess I call a game that is fun to play a great game. Just wondering out loud if say we deliver those 3 things above in 2010, will you then point out some other fundamental area that you feel is lacking? What I mean is, (and not trying to sound condescending...trying to ask a valid question), will all the additions in the world ever outweigh the constant drive to be critical and push the game farther, or will there be a point where you are like "Holy Crap this is the game of my dreams...don't change anything!"?

No Ian, I'm sure he'd find another list of things to harp on. I for one appriciate the input we've gotten to add to the game this year, I also appriciate you guys working on the game taking the time to post on various forums. It pains me that everyone these days is so all about "entitlement" that they take stuff like that for granted and just piss and moan for the sake of pissing and moaning. Or at least coming off like that even if it wasn't the intention.

[Exonerated]

Re: Madden NFL 09 2008 Super Bowl Video (IGN)

^^^^^

Yeah Agreed. Too many complainers for the sake of complaining.

The game is heading in the right direction. Add the same level of input and effort in future years as you did this year, and no one can fault you.

[spankdatazz22]

Re: Madden NFL 09 2008 Super Bowl Video (IGN)

I guess I call a game that is fun to play a great game. Just wondering out loud if say we deliver those 3 things above in 2010, will you then point out some other fundamental area that you feel is lacking? Would I then see a post for Madden 2010 saying "Sure they have better OL/DL, WR/DB, and QB play, but the players still don't pile on to the ball when there is a fumble. How can EA consider this game great when they are lacking in such fundamental areas as this?"

Here's my problem with your statements: you seem to want to have things in all ways. You said yourself that there are somewhat significant issues that will need to be addressed next year and beyond in Madden - okay. You just said "if you can look past this...", which seems to me you're saying don't judge "this" because you're going to fix "this" next year. Or beyond. Why shouldn't "this" be judged for what it is now, not for what you're saying it will be? You're admitting the lineman are going to have synchronized reactions, that they're going to look scripted - and in the same breath you're saying look past that, don't judge the game on that because you'll fix it. That's what I have a problem with. No, it's not being said literally. But it's what seems to be being said, and I've heard this same mentality from more than a few posters here.

Not to put words in your mouth, but you seem to be trying to equate what I said about the various gameplay aspects as expecting perfection which is ridiculous. All I said was an observation - I don't see how this-this-this-and this can be admittedly wrong or not work the way you yourself have said you want it to work - but the game is great, as long as you look past those things because you've promised to fix them. For all I know, the game IS great - I'm just making an observation based on video we've seen. But when you have the excuses of "wrong animations getting called/that's why Maroney ran through a lineman with little effect to his forward trajectory" or you imply certain things shouldn't be judged because they're going to be fixed. At some point.

What I mean is, (and not trying to sound condescending...trying to ask a valid question), will all the additions in the world ever outweigh the constant drive to be critical and push the game farther? Realistically...won't there always be something in real life that we just aren't simulating in a video game? Or do you think there will be a point where you are like "Holy Crap this is the game of my dreams...don't change anything!"?

I'm busy this a.m. so can't properly respond to your post. Needless to say, no one's expecting perfection. But look around you. If NBA2K8 had Tim Duncan taking off from the foul line and slam dunking like Michael Jordan, with regularity, then people would have a problem with that. Same with any number of examples in basketball or hockey. Part of this is about having a realistic expectation, which I feel I have. For me there's a big difference between moving in the right direction, and great.

[K_GUN]

Re: Madden NFL 09 2008 Super Bowl Video (IGN)

the longer one stairs at a painting the more imperfections one will find

leave the museum for a bit boys......you'll find more enjoyment afterwards

[Exonerated]

Re: Madden NFL 09 2008 Super Bowl Video (IGN)

^^^^^

So true

[Ian_Cummings]

Re: Madden NFL 09 2008 Super Bowl Video (IGN)

DELETE: Double post

[Ian_Cummings]

Re: Madden NFL 09 2008 Super Bowl Video (IGN)

You just said "if you can look past this...", which seems to me you're saying don't judge "this" because you're going to fix "this" next year. Or beyond. Why shouldn't "this" be judged for what it is now, not for what you're saying it will be? You're admitting the lineman are going to have synchronized reactions, that they're going to look scripted - and in the same breath you're saying look past that, don't judge the game on that because you'll fix it. That's what I have a problem with. No, it's not being said literally.

Number 1, it's probably not a good idea to make assumptions on what I'm thinking or expecting based on written posts. You are saying things like "you seem" to be doing this...all kinds of tone is lost in this virtual world. If it's not being said literally, then you probably shouldn't try to infer it. Though this is kind of ironic though because when I did actually spell something out literally, you didn't believe it (re: thinking I am here as a marketing ploy).

To make sure I'm clear, I don't want anyone on these forums to give Madden a pass on anything. I've stated this many times before. I want everyone to be honest, and brutally honest if they so feel. You aren't going to scare me away. I have said this multiple times...don't buy the game if you these issue are deal breakers for you. And even if they aren't feel free to post all you want about issues that bug you.

For this post specifically, to clarify I am not saying "don't judge our game because I'm looking into fixing it for the future". That sucks if that is what was implied, but that's what written text can do I suppose - lose the message. All I am saying is that I feel it's a great video game - and that's because of the sum of it's parts, regardless of those 2 issues you saw in the video.

A great game to me is a fun game, as long as the problems that may be there don't detract too much from the game experience. Madden 08 and NCAA 08 were not GREAT games because turnovers are glaring problems that in turn make the game not fun to play. Tecmo Bowl is a GREAT game, but that's because I enjoyed the whole experience and ignored the fact that you could drop back and throw it 100 yards from one endzone to the other, or that I could chase down any player with Lawrence Taylor even if they had a 50 yard head start.

I know you expect realism...I do too. But again, this is my serious question to you personally...try to envision a game where the 2 issues in this video are fixed, the OL/DL play is awesome, the WR/DB play is more finely tuned, and the QB control and animations are spot on. After seeing videos of all of the above, would your posts then be about the lack of pile-ups, or the fact that sideline catches aren't triggering frequently enough, or that players aren't slipping and falling enough in the rain? Or would your posts be about how you can't believe how this is actually a great game?

Do you see what I'm getting at? In a nutshell...can I ever meet your expectations? Your knee-jerk reaction will likely be to post something like "of course you can...just make a realistic football game without all these fundamental issues" - but I'm asking you to think deeper...is every issue you see going to be a "fundamental" issue for you?

[fsu851]

Re: Madden NFL 09 2008 Super Bowl Video (IGN)

i cant wait to play madden ,first time in about 2years

[Rawdeal28]

Re: Madden NFL 09 2008 Super Bowl Video (IGN)

Number 1, it's probably not a good idea to make assumptions on what I'm thinking or expecting based on written posts. You are saying things like "you seem" to be doing this...all kinds of tone is lost in this virtual world. If it's not being said literally, then you probably shouldn't try to infer it. Though this is kind of ironic though because when I did actually spell something out literally, you didn't believe it (re: thinking I am here as a marketing ploy).

To make sure I'm clear, I don't want anyone on these forums to give Madden a pass on anything. I've stated this many times before. I want everyone to be honest, and brutally honest if they so feel. You aren't going to scare me away. I have said this multiple times...don't buy the game if you these issue are deal breakers for you. And even if they aren't feel free to post all you want about issues that bug you.

For this post specifically, to clarify I am not saying "don't judge our game because I'm looking into fixing it for the future". That sucks if that is what was implied, but that's what written text can do I suppose - lose the message. All I am saying is that I feel it's a great video game - and that's because of the sum of it's parts, regardless of those 2 issues you saw in the video.

A great game to me is a fun game, as long as the problems that may be there don't detract too much from the game experience. Madden 08 and NCAA 08 were not GREAT games because turnovers are glaring problems that in turn make the game not fun to play. Tecmo Bowl is a GREAT game, but that's because I enjoyed the whole experience and ignored the fact that you could drop back and throw it 100 yards from one endzone to the other, or that I could chase down any player with Lawrence Taylor even if they had a 50 yard head start.

I know you expect realism...I do too. But again, this is my serious question to you personally...try to envision a game where the 2 issues in this video are fixed, the OL/DL play is awesome, the WR/DB play is more finely tuned, and the QB control and animations are spot on. After seeing videos of all of the above, would your posts then be about the lack of pile-ups, or the fact that sideline catches aren't triggering frequently enough, or that players aren't slipping and falling enough in the rain? Or would your posts be about how you can't believe how this is actually a great game?

Do you see what I'm getting at? In a nutshell...can I ever meet your expectations? Your knee-jerk reaction will likely be to post something like "of course you can...just make a realistic football game without all these fundamental issues" - but I'm asking you to think deeper...is every issue you see going to be a "fundamental" issue for you?

Ian, Spankdatazzz and people like him will always find something to criticize. i mean look at the uniform errors thread. unless u guys give the team the wrong color pants, jersey, or helmet i never noticed anything else and i played 08 extensively when i first got it last year. u got people going haywire over socks and shoes and stuff. although i am glad alot of the errors got fixed.

point is, alot of people bypass the positive and focus on the negative. they will always find a fundamental issue with things. as for me, as long as the negatives arent gamebreakers like last year (i.e. the franchise bug, turnover issue, and and QB throwing too many INT's) im good. but i do look at positives and most people arent like that.

[MaxMan1000]

Re: Madden NFL 09 2008 Super Bowl Video (IGN)

This is some interesting stuff. I'd like to chime in...

Tecmo Bowl is a GREAT game, but that's because I enjoyed the whole experience and ignored the fact that you could drop back and throw it 100 yards from one endzone to the other, or that I could chase down any player with Lawrence Taylor even if they had a 50 yard head start.

The only difference I see though, is that back then I think gamers expectations were much different, and advances were rather pedestrian as opposed to say the jumps we got in games from 16-bit to 32 or 32/64 to 128. Compared to what preceeded Tecmo Bowl on consoles, Tecmo Bowl was the clear cut next level game for it's time until Madden really took off. And even after, Tecmo Super Bowl made a really huge impact to the point that it went down as a GOAT game.

The problem for Madden (and I think the source of a lot of criticism from hardcore Madden players) is that at this point in history it's not only having to stand up to the legacy it built during it's renaissance period of the 1990's, but also against later franchises that broke the mold and made a lasting historical mark (NFL 2K5). Even more, many hold the belief that the last gen Madden is still a better game. I personally feel the game controls better now than last gen. Last year, glitches killed the game, but the core of what it was in terms of gameplay feel, played and moved smoother than any Madden before it.

I know you expect realism...I do too. But again, this is my serious question to you personally...try to envision a game where the 2 issues in this video are fixed, the OL/DL play is awesome, the WR/DB play is more finely tuned, and the QB control and animations are spot on. After seeing videos of all of the above, would your posts then be about the lack of pile-ups, or the fact that sideline catches aren't triggering frequently enough, or that players aren't slipping and falling enough in the rain? Or would your posts be about how you can't believe how this is actually a greatgame?

I put in bold the part that stood out to me. See, things like that could use a slider. I know I sound like a broken record (lol), but the more ways we can control the game, the better the experience will be for each individual player.

There will always be people (myself included) who'll say this or that happens too much or too little because we have little or no control over its frequency. I'll even step out and say that a great deal of suggestions and complaints have to do with "too much or too little". But with more sliders and more turn on/turn offs the complaints will become fewer because now the control will be in the users hands...

If players slip too much or too little, with options it'll be up to the end user to make the adjustment to get it where he wants it. User doesn't like the color vividness, or picture brightness/darkness/contrast? If the user has options, the user can fix it himself. User doesn't think the game is fast enough or slow enough or medium enough (lol)? Speed slider... user fix.

And as long as the options and sliders have the intended effect on what it's supposed to effect (in other words, the sliders do what they're programmed to do), I truly believe people will have fewer complaints about those things and I say that because of this; in Madden '08, the fumble issue was a big deal for many people. Even turning things down to '0' had no effect, so people still complained, and now the complaint became "I turned it down to '0' and it STILL didn't do anything!"

I might be rambling a bit, but I hope I'm making sense I just think leaving the user more control as fail-safe's may not only make a lot more people happy, but it may also take a lot of the yearly pressure off of you guys in terms of the impossibility of knowing how 6 Million+ people will take to a concrete feature that can't be modified. I'd be a nervous wreck about that myself, lol.

[Rawdeal28]

Re: Madden NFL 09 2008 Super Bowl Video (IGN)

This is some interesting stuff. I'd like to chime in...



The only difference I see though, is that back then I think gamers expectations were much different, and advances were rather pedestrian as opposed to say the jumps we got in games from 16-bit to 32 or 32/64 to 128. Compared to what preceeded Tecmo Bowl on consoles, Tecmo Bowl was the clear cut next level game for it's time until Madden really took off. And even after, Tecmo Super Bowl made a really huge impact to the point that it went down as a GOAT game.

The problem for Madden (and I think the source of a lot of criticism from hardcore Madden players) is that at this point in history it's not only having to stand up to the legacy it built during it's renaissance period of the 1990's, but also against later franchises that broke the mold and made a lasting historical mark (NFL 2K5). Even more, many hold the belief that the last gen Madden is still a better game. I personally feel the game controls better now than last gen. Last year, glitches killed the game, but the core of what it was in terms of gameplay feel, played and moved smoother than any Madden before it.



I put in bold the part that stood out to me. See, things like that could use a slider. I know I sound like a broken record (lol), but the more ways we can control the game, the better the experience will be for each individual player.

There will always be people (myself included) who'll say this or that happens too much or too little because we have little or no control over its frequency. I'll even step out and say that a great deal of suggestions and complaints have to do with "too much or too little". But with more sliders and more turn on/turn offs the complaints will become fewer because now the control will be in the users hands...

If players slip too much or too little, with options it'll be up to the end user to make the adjustment to get it where he wants it. User doesn't like the color vividness, or picture brightness/darkness/contrast? If the user has options, the user can fix it himself. User doesn't think the game is fast enough or slow enough or medium enough (lol)? Speed slider... user fix.

And as long as the options and sliders have the intended effect on what it's supposed to effect (in other words, the sliders do what they're programmed to do), I truly believe people will have fewer complaints about those things and I say that because of this; in Madden '08, the fumble issue was a big deal for many people. Even turning things down to '0' had no effect, so people still complained, and now the complaint became "I turned it down to '0' and it STILL didn't do anything!"

I might be rambling a bit, but I hope I'm making sense I just think leaving the user more control as fail-safe's may not only make a lot more people happy, but it may also take a lot of the yearly pressure off of you guys in terms of the impossibility of knowing how 6 Million+ people will take to a concrete feature that can't be modified. I'd be a nervous wreck about that myself, lol.

very good post. i cant argue with that playa!

[Ian_Cummings]

Re: Madden NFL 09 2008 Super Bowl Video (IGN)

This is some interesting stuff. I'd like to chime in...



The only difference I see though, is that back then I think gamers expectations were much different, and advances were rather pedestrian as opposed to say the jumps we got in games from 16-bit to 32 or 32/64 to 128. Compared to what preceeded Tecmo Bowl on consoles, Tecmo Bowl was the clear cut next level game for it's time until Madden really took off. And even after, Tecmo Super Bowl made a really huge impact to the point that it went down as a GOAT game.

The problem for Madden (and I think the source of a lot of criticism from hardcore Madden players) is that at this point in history it's not only having to stand up to the legacy it built during it's renaissance period of the 1990's, but also against later franchises that broke the mold and made a lasting historical mark (NFL 2K5). Even more, many hold the belief that the last gen Madden is still a better game. I personally feel the game controls better now than last gen. Last year, glitches killed the game, but the core of what it was in terms of gameplay feel, played and moved smoother than any Madden before it.



I put in bold the part that stood out to me. See, things like that could use a slider. I know I sound like a broken record (lol), but the more ways we can control the game, the better the experience will be for each individual player.

There will always be people (myself included) who'll say this or that happens too much or too little because we have little or no control over its frequency. I'll even step out and say that a great deal of suggestions and complaints have to do with "too much or too little". But with more sliders and more turn on/turn offs the complaints will become fewer because now the control will be in the users hands...

If players slip too much or too little, with options it'll be up to the end user to make the adjustment to get it where he wants it. User doesn't like the color vividness, or picture brightness/darkness/contrast? If the user has options, the user can fix it himself. User doesn't think the game is fast enough or slow enough or medium enough (lol)? Speed slider... user fix.

And as long as the options and sliders have the intended effect on what it's supposed to effect (in other words, the sliders do what they're programmed to do), I truly believe people will have fewer complaints about those things and I say that because of this; in Madden '08, the fumble issue was a big deal for many people. Even turning things down to '0' had no effect, so people still complained, and now the complaint became "I turned it down to '0' and it STILL didn't do anything!"

I might be rambling a bit, but I hope I'm making sense I just think leaving the user more control as fail-safe's may not only make a lot more people happy, but it may also take a lot of the yearly pressure off of you guys in terms of the impossibility of knowing how 6 Million+ people will take to a concrete feature that can't be modified. I'd be a nervous wreck about that myself, lol.

All valid points. I definitely understand where the criticism is coming from, and there's nothing wrong with that.

What I'm trying to do though is dig to the bottom - if someone will not accept a game as being good or improved if a "fundamental" issue is not addressed, this to me is an easy cop-out to always be disappointed with the game, because no matter what I'm assuming there will always be an issue that could be categorized as "fundamental". It's still a video game, and I don't foresee any time in the near future us programming an exact representation of the NFL. I'm going to make it awesome and realistic...but it will never be EXACT...ya know?

Am I making sense here, or am I just rambling?

[Agame]

Re: Madden NFL 09 2008 Super Bowl Video (IGN)

I know you expect realism...I do too. But again, this is my serious question to you personally...try to envision a game where the 2 issues in this video are fixed, the OL/DL play is awesome, the WR/DB play is more finely tuned, and the QB control and animations are spot on. After seeing videos of all of the above…………






I think I would have an orgasm!