Madden NFL 09 2008 Super Bowl Video (IGN)

[BrianFifaFan]

Re: Madden NFL 09 2008 Super Bowl Video (IGN)

All valid points. I definitely understand where the criticism is coming from, and there's nothing wrong with that.

What I'm trying to do though is dig to the bottom - if someone will not accept a game as being good or improved if a "fundamental" issue is not addressed, this to me is an easy cop-out to always be disappointed with the game, because no matter what I'm assuming there will always be an issue that could be categorized as "fundamental". It's still a video game, and I don't foresee any time in the near future us programming an exact representation of the NFL. I'm going to make it awesome and realistic...but it will never be EXACT...ya know?

Am I making sense here, or am I just rambling?

I'm feeling you, Ian. But I'm gonna mix games right now and bring up what could be considered a "fundimental" design flaw with the football gameplay engine. Already I can see where the underlying code in NCAA is tuned to be Offensive friendly. That'll make the game more "fun." Problem is that you can't bring any D-Line pressure without blitzing. And then the CPU is superhuman anyway, so if you get close he just goes into Tom Brady mode anyway and completes 85% of his passes.

What's my point? The game wasn't re-written so much, save the breakaway engine and new controls. But then they "tune" the game to put the D at a major disadvantage to complete the illusion. Why? Why can't both be good? It really wouldn't be such a big deal if the OL/DL stuff wasn't so broken to begin with. But to tune the game to lessen my ability to get pressure when I could barely get any in previous games? It's like the Michael Vick fiasco of Madden 04 again. I'm not saying that Madden will be this way, really hoping not. But it is really evident that NCAA needs some fundimental reprogramming to get the game to balance out where you can have fast smart offense and fasr smart D. This tuning back and forth is making for unbalanced, bordering on unrealistic gameplay. Oh yeah, I can see the comeback AI has been brought back to keep the game exciting. Overall a good game, but I'm hoping that Madden is far more "sim" than NCAA.......

[Ian_Cummings]

Re: Madden NFL 09 2008 Super Bowl Video (IGN)

I'm feeling you, Ian. But I'm gonna mix games right now and bring up what could be considered a "fundimental" design flaw with the football gameplay engine. Already I can see where the underlying code in NCAA is tuned to be Offensive friendly. That'll make the game more "fun." Problem is that you can't bring any D-Line pressure without blitzing. And then the CPU is superhuman anyway, so if you get close he just goes into Tom Brady mode anyway and completes 85% of his passes.

What's my point? The game wasn't re-written so much, save the breakaway engine and new controls. But then they "tune" the game to put the D at a major disadvantage to complete the illusion. Why? Why can't both be good? It really wouldn't be such a big deal if the OL/DL stuff wasn't so broken to begin with. But to tune the game to lessen my ability to get pressure when I could barely get any in previous games? It's like the Michael Vick fiasco of Madden 04 again. I'm not saying that Madden will be this way, really hoping not. But it is really evident that NCAA needs some fundimental reprogramming to get the game to balance out where you can have fast smart offense and fasr smart D. This tuning back and forth is making for unbalanced, bordering on unrealistic gameplay. Oh yeah, I can see the comeback AI has been brought back to keep the game exciting. Overall a good game, but I'm hoping that Madden is far more "sim" than NCAA.......

Madden is definitely much more "sim" than NCAA.

It's been a while since I've heard the old "comeback code" line...I swear on my life there is no such thing.

[SoxFan01605]

Re: Madden NFL 09 2008 Super Bowl Video (IGN)

I'm feeling you, Ian. But I'm gonna mix games right now and bring up what could be considered a "fundimental" design flaw with the football gameplay engine. Already I can see where the underlying code in NCAA is tuned to be Offensive friendly. That'll make the game more "fun." Problem is that you can't bring any D-Line pressure without blitzing. And then the CPU is superhuman anyway, so if you get close he just goes into Tom Brady mode anyway and completes 85% of his passes.

What's my point? The game wasn't re-written so much, save the breakaway engine and new controls. But then they "tune" the game to put the D at a major disadvantage to complete the illusion. Why? Why can't both be good? It really wouldn't be such a big deal if the OL/DL stuff wasn't so broken to begin with. But to tune the game to lessen my ability to get pressure when I could barely get any in previous games? It's like the Michael Vick fiasco of Madden 04 again. I'm not saying that Madden will be this way, really hoping not. But it is really evident that NCAA needs some fundimental reprogramming to get the game to balance out where you can have fast smart offense and fasr smart D. This tuning back and forth is making for unbalanced, bordering on unrealistic gameplay. Oh yeah, I can see the comeback AI has been brought back to keep the game exciting. Overall a good game, but I'm hoping that Madden is far more "sim" than NCAA.......

I haven't played the new NCAA yet, but I can definitely echo the general sentiment. Too often in videogames period (including Madden...at least up to this point) it seems that instead of actually fixing issues they are "patched up" leading to other issues entirely (isn't this essentially how the excessive turnover garbage came to fruition in 08?). I know nothing about game development, and I'm sure it's not an easy thing to flat out fix balancing issues in a short time frame, but it is frustrating from the consumers end.

It would be nice if Madden could take a year and just focus on core gameplay tuning (like OL/DL, WR/DB, and QB pocket movement, etc) without having to weaken "A" to strengthen "B," but I also understand that (as I beleve Ian said some time ago) it would be tough to market that to the average consumer. The irony is that all the time taken to "tune" the game to be more competative or exciting could probably be used to make a more authentic experience...which would probably lead to competative and exciting games.

[BrianFifaFan]

Re: Madden NFL 09 2008 Super Bowl Video (IGN)

Madden is definitely much more "sim" than NCAA.

It's been a while since I've heard the old "comeback code" line...I swear on my life there is no such thing.

It might not exist, but I'm up by two score on Miami of Ohio and the QB starts calling the exact right play against my D every time. And the AI knows the "money plays" by heart. And the D is in perfect position every play. And "voila" before I know it were tied. I hope you ubderstand the point I'm trying to make. It kind of a "yin-yang" kinda thing. They add "wide-open" gameplay but then no D-line upgrades to balance it out. So I'm there fighting a CPU AI with D-Lineman who now get blocked better than ever and can't stop the super accurate QB. I guess what frustrates me is that the game goes one way or the other depending on focus for that year instead of growing in a balanced manner toward reality. Is it a time thing or a vision thing, "the running game is weak so lets give them hit and truck sticks....." But not to sound overly negative, I like the tuning on D-backs. Nicely balanced and make realistic plays. It is good to hear about Madden! Brian

P.S. I might be the only one who does this but I read the credits on NCAA. I saw the shared resource teams you were talking about. I tinl they were called "centrals?" It was cool to see your name and Simon's and Adam's. That's why I'm bringing up NCAA gameplay. It seems to be a shared resource, to an extent.

[BrianFifaFan]

Re: Madden NFL 09 2008 Super Bowl Video (IGN)

I haven't played the new NCAA yet, but I can definitely echo the general sentiment. Too often in videogames period (including Madden...at least up to this point) it seems that instead of actually fixing issues they are "patched up" leading to other issues entirely (isn't this essentially how the excessive turnover garbage came to fruition in 08?). I know nothing about game development, and I'm sure it's not an easy thing to flat out fix balancing issues in a short time frame, but it is frustrating from the consumers end.

It would be nice if Madden could take a year and just focus on core gameplay tuning (like OL/DL, WR/DB, and QB pocket movement, etc) without having to weaken "A" to strengthen "B," but I also understand that (as I beleve Ian said some time ago) it would be tough to market that to the average consumer. The irony is that all the time taken to "tune" the game to be more competative or exciting could probably be used to make a more authentic experience...which would probably lead to competative and exciting games.

Yeah, this balancing thing was brought up in a thread in NCAA about a conference call with the NCAA guy. He was asked about the lack of DL pressure and said that had to be as not to mess up the balancing of other parts of the game. So did they rob Peter to pay Paul. That can end up being just as frustraing as was the lack of responsiveness that my Offensive players controlling like barges the first few years of this gen. Now my D guys move half-dumb and you can see the advantage that O players have with the new branching animations and super juking ability. Games not fair. Now I'm the Colts, trying to outscore everyone.

[adembroski]

Re: Madden NFL 09 2008 Super Bowl Video (IGN)

Madden is definitely much more "sim" than NCAA.

It's been a while since I've heard the old "comeback code" line...I swear on my life there is no such thing.

Over the years it's been denied and denied, but I've always had a hard time believing it. Seriously; there have been years when it was positively uncanny. The consistency with which the opponent would come back was staggering.

There came a point where my strategy became "Get as big an early lead as humanly possible and try to out last 'em".

[Ian_Cummings]

Re: Madden NFL 09 2008 Super Bowl Video (IGN)

I guess what frustrates me is that the game goes one way or the other depending on focus for that year instead of growing in a balanced manner toward reality. Is it a time thing or a vision thing, "the running game is weak so lets give them hit and truck sticks....."

Yeah in the situation of NCAA this year the focus as a company was on "Wide Open Gameplay". The main goal there was to really add more disparity between teams and also spread the feel out more between Madden and NCAA. It's unfortunate to hear that the DL play isn't quite up to snuff and the "Robo-QB" seems to be back. Those are pretty straightforward to tune...maybe they can be patched (I'll ask around). I don't think the goal is to skew the play one way or the other...but I do know that there was a bit of guarded caution this year to make sure the offense could actually be effective and fun due to the skewed amount of pick-6's and turnovers last year.

P.S. I might be the only one who does this but I read the credits on NCAA. I saw the shared resource teams you were talking about. I tinl they were called "centrals?" It was cool to see your name and Simon's and Adam's. That's why I'm bringing up NCAA gameplay. It seems to be a shared resource, to an extent.

Yeah, the gameplay and animation team is shared between Madden and NCAA...but we built tools and processes that allow us to easily change key aspects across the two games, from AI to animation. Simon is the director of animation...I was the guy in charge of gameplay until January of this year...now it's Sean Bailey.

[Ian_Cummings]

Re: Madden NFL 09 2008 Super Bowl Video (IGN)

Over the years it's been denied and denied, but I've always had a hard time believing it. Seriously; there have been years when it was positively uncanny. The consistency with which the opponent would come back was staggering.

There came a point where my strategy became "Get as big an early lead as humanly possible and try to out last 'em".

I think the only explanation has to be our play-tracking AI. It's in there, though relatively basic, where the CPU has some memory to what plays you are calling, and mixes up what they are doing to beat you.

[Ian_Cummings]

Re: Madden NFL 09 2008 Super Bowl Video (IGN)

Yeah, this balancing thing was brought up in a thread in NCAA about a conference call with the NCAA guy. He was asked about the lack of DL pressure and said that had to be as not to mess up the balancing of other parts of the game. So did they rob Peter to pay Paul. That can end up being just as frustraing as was the lack of responsiveness that my Offensive players controlling like barges the first few years of this gen. Now my D guys move half-dumb and you can see the advantage that O players have with the new branching animations and super juking ability. Games not fair. Now I'm the Colts, trying to outscore everyone.

Yeah, that's just not true. Can you point me to the thread?

[Agame]

Re: Madden NFL 09 2008 Super Bowl Video (IGN)

Re: Line play the foundation of video game?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Line play the foundation of video game?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nza





It all starts up front, in real life and in virtual representations of the sport. 09 may play well, hell it may play great, but Madden can't and won't push the gameplay barrier until this is addressed; it is simply too integral to the sport for it to not to matter this much. Right now, Madden plays its own brand of football that, while mimicking real life, fails to address far too many real life aspects. Properly done OL and DL will change this into Madden playing NFL football.



Ian, I think that you feel this way....YOU want real Football.....It starts with the line play............WE ALL (O.K. Most) thing 2009 looks like a base for a fun and realistic game of Madden ................can Madden NFL 2010 be the year for the focus on OL/DL?


Bring your "A" game

[BrianFifaFan]

Re: Madden NFL 09 2008 Super Bowl Video (IGN)

Yeah, that's just not true. Can you point me to the thread?

Here you go Ian. Bout halfway down.....http://www.operationsports.com/forum...r-gamplay.html

[maddenps2]

Re: Madden NFL 09 2008 Super Bowl Video (IGN)

People complain about a comeback code and complain about realism at the same time. Those complaints somewhat contradict each since in many instances a real-life NFL team will be more aggressive when they are down and need to score. Especially a team with talented players and a top quarterback such as manning of favre. Not all teams/players can do this but many do and can.

Do people not want teams/players to change their intensity regardless of the situation?

I hope that EA takes this into account somewhat because computer players should mimic there real life counterparts at times and turn up the intensity during crucial game-time situations.

[MaxMan1000]

Re: Madden NFL 09 2008 Super Bowl Video (IGN)

All valid points. I definitely understand where the criticism is coming from, and there's nothing wrong with that.

What I'm trying to do though is dig to the bottom - if someone will not accept a game as being good or improved if a "fundamental" issue is not addressed, this to me is an easy cop-out to always be disappointed with the game, because no matter what I'm assuming there will always be an issue that could be categorized as "fundamental". It's still a video game, and I don't foresee any time in the near future us programming an exact representation of the NFL. I'm going to make it awesome and realistic...but it will never be EXACT...ya know?

Am I making sense here, or am I just rambling?

I hear ya. I agree that the idea of the game being exact is virtually impossible. I've read stuff where people won't play the game because a guy doesn't move a quarter of an inch the right way in a specific animation, lol. I have my wants too, but even I don't understand giving up on a game for things like that, especially considering that no football game has ever been so exact like that... well, there was Mike Ditka's Quarterback Attack but that was FMV and you couldn't control a whole lot...

I'm not a hardcore guy, I barely touch franchise and I play 5 min quarters of less. I can't say that all who fall into my category think this way, but I honestly don't even notice the issues people bring up about stuff like OL/DL interaction and a bunch of other slight movements and things. I'm so focused on trying to make a play down the field that I'm hardly paying attention to that.

I think if you're a hardcore football fanatic AND a hardcore Madden player, you're going to notice everything about everything; OL/DL play/movement is fundamental in real life and so you're probably going to carry that expectation over. Quarterback footwork, RB instincts, precise headtracking... all that stuff is a hardcore thing I think and I doubt stuff like that is scrutinized at all by any group other than the hardcore. I never notice problems with those things unless an animation looks really strange. Now, I'm a football fanatic but only a casual gamer, but the football fanatic part of me doesn't carry over much into what I want from Madden. Gameplay feel, graphics, presentation... that's all I care about. As long as no animation pops-out as terribly quirky, I would never notice or even look into it hard enough to see if it's 100% fundamentally sound to pro football.

I think back to why I enjoyed old Madden's on PS1, and it was because of the feel, graphics and presentation (like Madden '98 on PS1! I still play it!). I scrutinize the hell outta those three things, but beyond those it doesn't take much to satisfy me.

[Ian_Cummings]

Re: Madden NFL 09 2008 Super Bowl Video (IGN)

Here you go Ian. Bout halfway down.....http://www.operationsports.com/forum...r-gamplay.html

Thanks for the link. He's actually incorrect on a few of those...d'oh! I am going to talk with him and we'll post more info soon.

[MaxMan1000]

Re: Madden NFL 09 2008 Super Bowl Video (IGN)

Ya know... After reading my own previous post again, I just realized that it's strange that my playing frequency is casual yet I still crave a lot more control of my experience in Madden... something about that is abnormal...