Madden NFL 09 2008 Super Bowl Video (IGN)

[cdon2k]

Re: Madden NFL 09 2008 Super Bowl Video (IGN)

I too have issues with the imbalance of play every year. I know it's the nature of the beast when adding features, but if something such as spec catch imbalances the game THAT much, maybe it isn't worth putting in.

[bls]

Re: Madden NFL 09 2008 Super Bowl Video (IGN)

Yeah, that's just not true. Can you point me to the thread?

I think what many are trying to say is if fundamental things can be done the right way in other games even on old consoles then why is it so hard to implement in madden next gen???

I think what it all boils down to when it comes to superior gameplay is the LITTLE THINGS, and that's what Madden fails at year after year. It's not about just taking one element such as "Juke Stick" and making it the main focus of your game for that particularly year. It's about getting all the LITTLE things right which in the end will make your game stand out in a BIG way.

Little things such as giving each O-linemen different reacting animations to add that feel of realism. Seeing your running back put his hand on an O-linemans back and push off to get thru a whole. Seeing a DB/WR jamming each other at the line of scrimmage only to see the WR slip and lose his balance for a sec. Seeing the refs out there on the field and sometimes even being involved in plays getting ran over. Seeing a lb in the process of trying to bring down a Maroney and having the ability to come over there help the lb bring him down. Seeing a WR release down the field into his route only to pull up and start limping due to him pulling a hamstring. Different D-line rip animations, the QB having a smooth drop back and when I move him around he's not just back pedaling and looking stiff. Lineman tussling with one another after a play is over. WR's slipping in the rain. Seeing different running backs have there actual running style and QB's have there actual throwing styles.

I could go on and on with the LITTLE things as far as GAMEPLAY is concern that makes a game standout. And at the end of the day adds replay value to a game and brings the consumer back time after time.

I remember the old Lakers vs Celtics games every star had there own little move from Chris Mullin to Hardaway's ustep to Jordan and Wilkins..etc. This is what made the game so fun. The individuality that stood out with the game.

And remember NBA Showdown? The on fire and cold streaks? Star players had there own indivdual moves in that game as well. Those were the fun days of gaming. And seems like with the technology we have nowadays, gaming companies should not only be able to implement those things but expand upon them in a way that has never been done before.

[Vikes1]

Re: Madden NFL 09 2008 Super Bowl Video (IGN)

Madden is definitely much more "sim" than NCAA.

In all seriousness...I just can't read this statement enough.

It warms the cockles of my heart knowing I can count on this. I can understand the NCAA game being fun, to a point, being more arcade-like than Madden. However...if I'm going to spend possibly a few hundred hours in franchise mode, for me...fun just isn't enough. I need the game to be as realistic as possible to warrant such a large time commitment to my franchise.

Not meaning to knock the NCAA game, but a commitment to a more "sim-like" experience is the reason I choose Madden for the long haul. I'm thankful Ian, that you and your team haven't lost site of what brought Madden to the heights that it has seen through the years. That gamers look to the Madden game for enjoyment AND as much of a realistic video football gaming experience as possible.

We're on the right course Ian....full steam ahead!

[DONF]

Re: Madden NFL 09 2008 Super Bowl Video (IGN)

Yeah I got your sarcasm...I wanted to quote you because you kind of echoed the point I wanted to drive home.




The new wrap system helped our "animation matching" problem greatly for this year. Unfortunately we weren't able to fully utilize it for blocking moves yet. The good news is that it will make improvements easy in the future.

Future? Not trying to be a Pain in the azzzz, but if you know the problem and have the fix, why wait????
Is this going to be a selling point for 2009??? We fixed the DL rushing scheme. It's in the game. blah, blah.

[DONF]

Re: Madden NFL 09 2008 Super Bowl Video (IGN)

I think what many are trying to say is if fundamental things can be done the right way in other games even on old consoles then why is it so hard to implement in madden next gen???

I think what it all boils down to when it comes to superior gameplay is the LITTLE THINGS, and that's what Madden fails at year after year. It's not about just taking one element such as "Juke Stick" and making it the main focus of your game for that particularly year. It's about getting all the LITTLE things right which in the end will make your game stand out in a BIG way.

Little things such as giving each O-linemen different reacting animations to add that feel of realism. Seeing your running back put his hand on an O-linemans back and push off to get thru a whole. Seeing a DB/WR jamming each other at the line of scrimmage only to see the WR slip and lose his balance for a sec. Seeing the refs out there on the field and sometimes even being involved in plays getting ran over. Seeing a lb in the process of trying to bring down a Maroney and having the ability to come over there help the lb bring him down. Seeing a WR release down the field into his route only to pull up and start limping due to him pulling a hamstring. Different D-line rip animations, the QB having a smooth drop back and when I move him around he's not just back pedaling and looking stiff. Lineman tussling with one another after a play is over. WR's slipping in the rain. Seeing different running backs have there actual running style and QB's have there actual throwing styles.

I could go on and on with the LITTLE things as far as GAMEPLAY is concern that makes a game standout. And at the end of the day adds replay value to a game and brings the consumer back time after time.

I remember the old Lakers vs Celtics games every star had there own little move from Chris Mullin to Hardaway's ustep to Jordan and Wilkins..etc. This is what made the game so fun. The individuality that stood out with the game.

And remember NBA Showdown? The on fire and cold streaks? Star players had there own indivdual moves in that game as well. Those were the fun days of gaming. And seems like with the technology we have nowadays, gaming companies should not only be able to implement those things but expand upon them in a way that has never been done before.

Classic post and should be the bible for EA from here on out.

[spankdatazz22]

Re: Madden NFL 09 2008 Super Bowl Video (IGN)

I'll be brief; I know you're busy with NCAA stuff:

Number 1, it's probably not a good idea to make assumptions on what I'm thinking or expecting based on written posts. You are saying things like "you seem" to be doing this...all kinds of tone is lost in this virtual world. If it's not being said literally, then you probably shouldn't try to infer it. Though this is kind of ironic though because when I did actually spell something out literally, you didn't believe it (re: thinking I am here as a marketing ploy).

Agreed, which is why I said "you seem" - I wasn't making the assumption that you were [implying whatever]. I was just saying how it appeared to me. Regarding the marketing ploy statement, I never said I did/didn't believe it. I thought I said I felt you're sincere in wanting to interact with the community but that I could also see how the sudden EA dev involvement across the board has been beneficial from a marketing standpoint.

To make sure I'm clear, I don't want anyone on these forums to give Madden a pass on anything. I've stated this many times before. I want everyone to be honest, and brutally honest if they so feel. You aren't going to scare me away. I have said this multiple times...don't buy the game if you these issue are deal breakers for you. And even if they aren't feel free to post all you want about issues that bug you.

Cool, because it probably needed to be said.

For this post specifically, to clarify I am not saying "don't judge our game because I'm looking into fixing it for the future". That sucks if that is what was implied, but that's what written text can do I suppose - lose the message. All I am saying is that I feel it's a great video game - and that's because of the sum of it's parts, regardless of those 2 issues you saw in the video.

A great game to me is a fun game, as long as the problems that may be there don't detract too much from the game experience. Madden 08 and NCAA 08 were not GREAT games because turnovers are glaring problems that in turn make the game not fun to play. Tecmo Bowl is a GREAT game, but that's because I enjoyed the whole experience and ignored the fact that you could drop back and throw it 100 yards from one endzone to the other, or that I could chase down any player with Lawrence Taylor even if they had a 50 yard head start.

We're likely arguing semantics. For me a great game is a unique achievement - any fun game can be classified as good, a special game is great. Imo NCAA/Madden '08 weren't even good - they had many more issues other than turnovers. I'd say '09's football games have a chance to be good despite their issues - it just remains to be seen what the games will be. If you feel Madden '09 will be great that's fine; just saying how I'd define differences between good/great.

I know you expect realism...I do too. But again, this is my serious question to you personally...try to envision a game where the 2 issues in this video are fixed, the OL/DL play is awesome, the WR/DB play is more finely tuned, and the QB control and animations are spot on. After seeing videos of all of the above, would your posts then be about the lack of pile-ups, or the fact that sideline catches aren't triggering frequently enough, or that players aren't slipping and falling enough in the rain? Or would your posts be about how you can't believe how this is actually a great game?

Do you see what I'm getting at? In a nutshell...can I ever meet your expectations? Your knee-jerk reaction will likely be to post something like "of course you can...just make a realistic football game without all these fundamental issues" - but I'm asking you to think deeper...is every issue you see going to be a "fundamental" issue for you?

Actually I'm less of a realism nut than many on the boards. I think there would be a lot of complaints from the hardcore if the game was purely realistic. I still laugh at how people wanted realism in Franchise mode and 2K did Weekly Prep for 2K4. Then people were saying "Ummm... that's too hard". I've said before - it's a lot easier to tolerate the game when it's positives outweigh it's negatives. If I took your hypothetical of QB play/WR/DB play/OL/DL play playing reasonably well versus the negatives you noted, then of course that would mean the game would be looked at positively.

But unfortunately it seems those gameplay facets will be issues again this year. It also needs to be understood we're factoring in that this is the 4th next gen Madden. If it were the first year or maybe even the second, these issues would be looked at differently. But for four years someone at Tiburon's looked at the completely awkward-looking QB play and has thought "that's good enough"? I'd be sitting here criticizing 2K if they still had the same stiff running animations four years running - I was disappointed when they didn't change the running animations significantly from 2K4 to 2K5. And I can cite any number of the game's other issues. But it's positives far outweighed it's negatives.

And of course every issue isn't a fundamental issue. I'm not talking about lack of sideline interaction, lack of penalties, lack of stat pop ups during the game, or some other fringe concern. We're talking about OL/DL interaction - pretty much the foundation of what occurs during any game. We're talking about QB play. WR/DB interaction. Tackling. Core player interaction. Madden's been weak in these areas and it's the reason the game has been viewed poorly. It's not just because the game has too many interceptions and fumbles.

[spankdatazz22]

Re: Madden NFL 09 2008 Super Bowl Video (IGN)

I think what many are trying to say is if fundamental things can be done the right way in other games even on old consoles then why is it so hard to implement in madden next gen???

I think what it all boils down to when it comes to superior gameplay is the LITTLE THINGS, and that's what Madden fails at year after year. It's not about just taking one element such as "Juke Stick" and making it the main focus of your game for that particularly year. It's about getting all the LITTLE things right which in the end will make your game stand out in a BIG way.

Little things such as giving each O-linemen different reacting animations to add that feel of realism. Seeing your running back put his hand on an O-linemans back and push off to get thru a whole. Seeing a DB/WR jamming each other at the line of scrimmage only to see the WR slip and lose his balance for a sec. Seeing the refs out there on the field and sometimes even being involved in plays getting ran over. Seeing a lb in the process of trying to bring down a Maroney and having the ability to come over there help the lb bring him down. Seeing a WR release down the field into his route only to pull up and start limping due to him pulling a hamstring. Different D-line rip animations, the QB having a smooth drop back and when I move him around he's not just back pedaling and looking stiff. Lineman tussling with one another after a play is over. WR's slipping in the rain. Seeing different running backs have there actual running style and QB's have there actual throwing styles.

I could go on and on with the LITTLE things as far as GAMEPLAY is concern that makes a game standout. And at the end of the day adds replay value to a game and brings the consumer back time after time.

I remember the old Lakers vs Celtics games every star had there own little move from Chris Mullin to Hardaway's ustep to Jordan and Wilkins..etc. This is what made the game so fun. The individuality that stood out with the game.

And remember NBA Showdown? The on fire and cold streaks? Star players had there own indivdual moves in that game as well. Those were the fun days of gaming. And seems like with the technology we have nowadays, gaming companies should not only be able to implement those things but expand upon them in a way that has never been done before.

Great post

[cdon2k]

Re: Madden NFL 09 2008 Super Bowl Video (IGN)

Pretty interesting stuff, I'd like to chime in. I'm with these guys as "engine" and "the little things" are concerned. The difference between me and them though is that I usually try and stay positive even as I criticize the games flaws. I believe this is due to one reason, I have accepted that 2k is gone. I am willing to accept Tiburion's best effort which can result in a "good" game as I believe 09 will be and possibly a "great" game which 2010 should be. All that said, I don't expect mind blowing due to the fact I just don't think the Tiburion guys are as talented as 2k was. The Madden next gen engine they created shows it, and even when they get to their destination, we will still be left with just "great", not mind blowing.

To answer your question, Ian, will guys like spank have a hard time getting to a point where they will have a game where everything's perfect, I suspect it will be difficult as they will haven't accepted that 2k is gone forever. It is due to this fact that I refuse to even play 2k5 or 2k8 because there is no point. There is no future for 2k football. We have to learn to accept Tiburion's best and live with it. There is a term around here called "Madden Ball" basically it describes arcadey Madden style gameplay (high bullet pass anyone?) and no matter how great the game gets, to some, Madden Ball will never be good enough. Heck, even the legendary PS2 Madden 08 features it. Hope that answers your question.

[spankdatazz22]

Re: Madden NFL 09 2008 Super Bowl Video (IGN)

To answer your question, Ian, will guys like spank have a hard time getting to a point where they will have a game where everything's perfect, I suspect it will be difficult as they will haven't accepted that 2k is gone forever. It is due to this fact that I refuse to even play 2k5 or 2k8 because there is no point. There is no future for 2k football. We have to learn to accept Tiburion's best and live with it.

? I'm not holding a candle in the window hoping for 2K football's return. I'd like to see them get an honest rip at a football title but I've said all along how unlikely I believe that is. Nor am I expecting perfection from Madden. I'm just not going to compromise my expectations accept "Tiburon's best" at face value. I'm sure they wouldn't like the implication that they're not talented enough to do certain things and that we should cut them a break. At four years in, it's definitely not too much to ask for that linemen don't look like synchronized swimmers, QBs that display remotely plausible throwing mechanics (if not outright unique throwing styles - which I'm sure will be focused on next year), etc. It's so bad that it's gotten to the point where these are things that won't even be mentioned in reviews - until they fix them, then they're "huge improvements". I'm positive that '09 will be an improvement over '08, that should be expected. Unfortunately there are many that seem surprised that's the case

[NYGmen56]

Re: Madden NFL 09 2008 Super Bowl Video (IGN)

I'll be brief; I know you're busy with NCAA stuff:



Agreed, which is why I said "you seem" - I wasn't making the assumption that you were [implying whatever]. I was just saying how it appeared to me. Regarding the marketing ploy statement, I never said I did/didn't believe it. I thought I said I felt you're sincere in wanting to interact with the community but that I could also see how the sudden EA dev involvement across the board has been beneficial from a marketing standpoint.



Cool, because it probably needed to be said.



We're likely arguing semantics. For me a great game is a unique achievement - any fun game can be classified as good, a special game is great. Imo NCAA/Madden '08 weren't even good - they had many more issues other than turnovers. I'd say '09's football games have a chance to be good despite their issues - it just remains to be seen what the games will be. If you feel Madden '09 will be great that's fine; just saying how I'd define differences between good/great.



Actually I'm less of a realism nut than many on the boards. I think there would be a lot of complaints from the hardcore if the game was purely realistic. I still laugh at how people wanted realism in Franchise mode and 2K did Weekly Prep for 2K4. Then people were saying "Ummm... that's too hard". I've said before - it's a lot easier to tolerate the game when it's positives outweigh it's negatives. If I took your hypothetical of QB play/WR/DB play/OL/DL play playing reasonably well versus the negatives you noted, then of course that would mean the game would be looked at positively.

But unfortunately it seems those gameplay facets will be issues again this year. It also needs to be understood we're factoring in that this is the 4th next gen Madden. If it were the first year or maybe even the second, these issues would be looked at differently. But for four years someone at Tiburon's looked at the completely awkward-looking QB play and has thought "that's good enough"? I'd be sitting here criticizing 2K if they still had the same stiff running animations four years running - I was disappointed when they didn't change the running animations significantly from 2K4 to 2K5. And I can cite any number of the game's other issues. But it's positives far outweighed it's negatives.

And of course every issue isn't a fundamental issue. I'm not talking about lack of sideline interaction, lack of penalties, lack of stat pop ups during the game, or some other fringe concern. We're talking about OL/DL interaction - pretty much the foundation of what occurs during any game. We're talking about QB play. WR/DB interaction. Tackling. Core player interaction. Madden's been weak in these areas and it's the reason the game has been viewed poorly. It's not just because the game has too many interceptions and fumbles.

Spankdatazz22, Excellent post! Very well put..

I really like this part, "We're talking about OL/DL interaction - pretty much the foundation of what occurs during any game. We're talking about QB play. WR/DB interaction. Tackling. Core player interaction." Ian this is the key.
You fix or redo that from scratch, and i'm almost sure Madden wouldn't be viewed or talked about so poorly. Get the core right, and everything else will fall in it's place. Eye candy isn't everything, yes we want it to look good or real, but if doesn't play right what good is the eye candy?

[Exonerated]

Re: Madden NFL 09 2008 Super Bowl Video (IGN)

Its already be stated by Ian that OL/DL interaction and WR/DB interaction
will be high priorities if not the highest for 010.

[cdon2k]

Re: Madden NFL 09 2008 Super Bowl Video (IGN)

I agree spank, good post

[yamabushi]

Re: Madden NFL 09 2008 Super Bowl Video (IGN)

? I'm not holding a candle in the window hoping for 2K football's return. I'd like to see them get an honest rip at a football title but I've said all along how unlikely I believe that is. Nor am I expecting perfection from Madden. I'm just not going to compromise my expectations accept "Tiburon's best" at face value. I'm sure they wouldn't like the implication that they're not talented enough to do certain things and that we should cut them a break. At four years in, it's definitely not too much to ask for that linemen don't look like synchronized swimmers, QBs that display remotely plausible throwing mechanics (if not outright unique throwing styles - which I'm sure will be focused on next year), etc. It's so bad that it's gotten to the point where these are things that won't even be mentioned in reviews - until they fix them, then they're "huge improvements". I'm positive that '09 will be an improvement over '08, that should be expected. Unfortunately there are many that seem surprised that's the case

Beautifully put sir.

[NYGmen56]

Re: Madden NFL 09 2008 Super Bowl Video (IGN)

What surprises me about this years Madden 20th Anniversary is that you would think this would be a perfect time after 20 years to put out something that would blows peoples minds away(Next Gen) and yet we get the same thing year after year.. This would wouldd of been a great time for something new! Makes you think if they have the Dev team capable to make something special?? I'm guessing not..

[Goffs]

Re: Madden NFL 09 2008 Super Bowl Video (IGN)

I think what many are trying to say is if fundamental things can be done the right way in other games even on old consoles then why is it so hard to implement in madden next gen???

I think what it all boils down to when it comes to superior gameplay is the LITTLE THINGS, and that's what Madden fails at year after year. It's not about just taking one element such as "Juke Stick" and making it the main focus of your game for that particularly year. It's about getting all the LITTLE things right which in the end will make your game stand out in a BIG way.

Little things such as giving each O-linemen different reacting animations to add that feel of realism. Seeing your running back put his hand on an O-linemans back and push off to get thru a whole. Seeing a DB/WR jamming each other at the line of scrimmage only to see the WR slip and lose his balance for a sec. Seeing the refs out there on the field and sometimes even being involved in plays getting ran over. Seeing a lb in the process of trying to bring down a Maroney and having the ability to come over there help the lb bring him down. Seeing a WR release down the field into his route only to pull up and start limping due to him pulling a hamstring. Different D-line rip animations, the QB having a smooth drop back and when I move him around he's not just back pedaling and looking stiff. Lineman tussling with one another after a play is over. WR's slipping in the rain. Seeing different running backs have there actual running style and QB's have there actual throwing styles.

i know this isnt much but i like that they added sideline interaction in APF...where the runner would be stopped by a player from the sideline

actually the sideline has some different animation for situations..love that