APF 2K9: What Could Have Been

[asu666]

"Balls to the wall is what they should have done."

That's called Blitz and it stinks for sim fans. They should have done something simular to Pro Evolution Soccer is to FIFA, but let the community build everything and share it.

[Hassan Darkside]

Re: APF 2K9: What Could Have Been

I just feel like it was a blown opportunity for a game that could have been so much better. I remember that they clamped down on customization options just to avoid confrontation with the NFL/EA Sports. What's the worst that they could do? Prohibit 2k from making another football game? Now look where we are.

[CPRoark]

Re: APF 2K9: What Could Have Been

Great article? When the author is talking about the game context could've had something to do with the "football gods" ruling over every city and... I had to stop reading that junk. Like so many other throwaway OS articles of late. Pretty much nothing useful in it but the title.

Sorry you feel this way. I knew when I was writing that there would be some who wouldn't buy what I was going for. If you would have finished reading, you would have seen that we agreed with the full customization aspect. That was certainly something that was lacking.

You also criticize me and IGN ripping the game for what it wasn't. That wasn't my intent at all; that's why the article wasn't "APF 2K8: What wasn't." As it is, 2K8 was a fine playing football game. In my opinion, which is contrary to yours, they didn't do enough to differentiate themselves from Madden. We were left with a great playing, albeit very generic feeling game.

To me, without customization, context is huge. I want a universe that seems tangible and ongoing. You are right, a bare-boned franchise mode wouldn't have worked--it would have felt empty. My "football gods" thing was a creative way to incorporate the legends--assuming that APF 2K9 would not have abandoned that concept--using imagination and maximizing replay. Using legends messes with any franchise attempt--what about retirement, drafting new players, etc.? If you legends never change, that removes a huge element of what's interesting about traditional franchises.

The point is these games will never do well without some creativity--on the part of the developers or the users (Winning 11, et al).

Whether or not my article is of use beyond the title, it has at least spurred some conversation about this game that may never come back.

[spankdatazz22]

Re: APF 2K9: What Could Have Been

Sorry you feel this way. I knew when I was writing that there would be some who wouldn't buy what I was going for. If you would have finished reading, you would have seen that we agreed with the full customization aspect. That was certainly something that was lacking.

Personally I felt the football gods concept felt a little too out-there, but that isn't me talking down to your idea. And I definitely didn't mean to lump you in with IGN - I despise IGN's editorial and sports review content. I did mean what I said about OS's articles, because they have been mostly disappointing. That aside, I was trying to underscore the difficulty of how the game should be framed. Even in this thread we've seen x-number disparate ideas/directions people feel 2K should've taken, everyone feeling their idea was the right one. We had this debate leading up to APF's release - everybody had their own ideas about how franchise should be, how many teams, how many conferences/divisions, themes, etc. I just think we underestimate how difficult it was to try to create a viable football game essentially from scratch.

Most of us feel the player abilities system they were putting in place showed a lot of promise, but how might that have worked in a franchise mode? How might progression work? Or players declining in ability? Or if that should be taken into account at all? There was so much that was vague about the system to begin with, it's hard to see how they might've implemented it in the first year because people are so used to seeing numbers.

I agree w/your points on expanding on the personalities of the players. To some degree the players are somewhat distinguishable by the abilities, and I'm sure they would've expanded on that in future games. But the expectation seems to be that they have things relatively set on their first attempt. All I'm saying is trying to come up with a viable scheme that would please most is difficult, because there were a lot of hurdles to overcome. That they got the game made and it played very well on the field should've been considered a success in it's own right. Instead you had people saying the presentation sucked because it didn't match 2K5 - even though the game looks to be presented better than a new game like Madden '09 will be. No franchise. Game looks horrible (mostly 2K's fault in large part because of the ridiculous uniform choices imo). Just a lot for an unlicensed game to have to match up to

[CPRoark]

You are right...I don't think they could ever win trying to please everyone. It couldn't be an NFL sim, might be too arcadey, presentation might be off, etc. That's why I think they either have to go the way many suggested, full customization, or go way out there with something that's focused and consistent. It doesn't have to be crazy, it just has to be implemented fully.

Madden will always be the big NFL game, Blitz is the arcade title. We know these are true because they've always been true (except maybe for Blitz: Pro). The NFL 2K series, I think, was gaining a reputation as the "true fans" game, i.e., if you are a real die-hard NFL fan, you'll like this better than Madden. But without the license, that rep was lost.

APF might be known as the Legends game, but it didn't do that well enough to gain a market share.

Again, it comes down to making it "our" game with customization, or it has to be the ______ game (fill in the blank with a solid ID). That could be the "football gods" game or something more grounded. In either case, it has to be creative and consistent.

[burnwood]

Re: APF 2K9: What Could Have Been

"Balls to the wall is what they should have done."

That's called Blitz and it stinks for sim fans. They should have done something simular to Pro Evolution Soccer is to FIFA, but let the community build everything and share it.

Blitz most definitely wasn't what I shooting for in my post. The individual things in my previous post were though.

[asu666]

1. Drop the Legends it's Cheaper and Less Limiting
2. Full Customization (Players, Stadiums, Team Names and Locations Uniforms, Play Clock, Penalties, Game Play Sliders)
3. File Sharing
4. Owner Mode/ Franchise Mode

The concept is that a new league is starting up and the first draft is life a Necessary Roughness or The Replacement Players Concept. You are the league Commisioner and a Franchise Owner. The goal is to build your team and the league into the premier football league in the country within 30 seasons. The league acts like a character in an RPG, you start off small and grow. I would like to see variable attendance as an option too so I can see more fans packing my custom stadium as the league and my team does better.

[CPRoark]

1. Drop the Legends it's Cheaper and Less Limiting
2. Full Customization (Players, Stadiums, Team Names and Locations Uniforms, Play Clock, Penalties, Game Play Sliders)
3. File Sharing
4. Owner Mode/ Franchise Mode

The concept is that a new league is starting up and the first draft is life a Necessary Roughness or The Replacement Players Concept. You are the league Commisioner and a Franchise Owner. The goal is to build your team and the league into the premier football league in the country within 30 seasons. The league acts like a character in an RPG, you start off small and grow. I would like to see variable attendance as an option too so I can see more fans packing my custom stadium as the league and my team does better.

Good ideas. If only OS readers and staff had the resources to make a football game.

[metallicatz]

I played APF for 6 Season Mode go-rounds and it just got boring. Very little replay value for offline guys who like franshise mode. Plus, the whole legends gimmick got old pretty quick because it added a huge arcade element to the game. The legends were programmed seemingly by guys who watched NFL Films highlights of these guys under the assumption that guys like Earl Cambell or Walter Payton rattled off highlight reel calibur runs on every down. That just wasn't the case in real life. The game was every bit the mediocre product the cumulative review scores indicate.

[pietasterp]

Re: APF 2K9: What Could Have Been

I played APF for 6 Season Mode go-rounds and it just got boring. Very little replay value for offline guys who like franshise mode. Plus, the whole legends gimmick got old pretty quick because it added a huge arcade element to the game. The legends were programmed seemingly by guys who watched NFL Films highlights of these guys under the assumption that guys like Earl Cambell or Walter Payton rattled off highlight reel calibur runs on every down. That just wasn't the case in real life. The game was every bit the mediocre product the cumulative review scores indicate.

I'm a huge 2K guy, but I have to agree with you here, metallicatz. The game was fine, but in the end, it did seem like a incrementally-improved NFL2K5 without the NFL part. I have to say I think the game was mediocre, and I agree that the legends were a bit overly impactful on games.

Having said that, the football gods idea wasn't bad - it's a way to go to give the game character. Personally, I just think a stripped-down game with a boffo engine and next-gen graphics which the community could customize the hell out of was THE way to go. Give us the tools to re-create the NFL, and I promise the game would be a better recreation of the league than Madden, because the hardcore users would take all the inconsistencies they point out in these forums and translate that into the game directly. I don't see how that would be that difficult. Hell, if you built in enough customization (and frankly I don't see why they couldn't - it's just a matter of letting you put as many teams in a league as you want and customizing the structure of a season), you could even make it so that the game could either be a pro (NFL) OR college (NCAA) game. There's really no reason that couldn't happen.

BTW, my idea for a different way 2K could've gone would have been to make a high school football game, wherein you could set up your own leagues/divisions/conferences, customize all the schools (so you could make your own high school!), and play out a high school season to the state championship. Has anyone ever tried this? It seems kinda cool to me...

[Malachi]

Re: APF 2K9: What Could Have Been

Great article? When the author is talking about the game context could've had something to do with the "football gods" ruling over every city and... I had to stop reading that junk. Like so many other throwaway OS articles of late. Pretty much nothing useful in it but the title. 2K made lots of mistakes with some of the choices they made with APF, but gamers need to acknowledge the difficulty of what they were attempting. So many of us wanted the game to be what we (individually) wanted the game to be. This author's laughably talking about some "football gods" game, the IGN review slammed the game for not being more bold choices like rethinking overtime rules or something, etc. Everybody wanted the game to be what they wanted it to be and faulted it when it wasn't.

I honestly could care less if you found the article great or not. You said you stop reading when you saw him mention the football gods, but if you would have read more, you would have 1, saw him state that this idea may be little out there to some and he may be letting his imagination run wild. Secondly, in which you pretty much missed the whole point of the entire football gods thing was that its main purpose was to add to the longevity of the game, so players that would want to play a franchise mode would get their wish, along with a story. I'm sorry everyone is not a online gamer, infact, 70% of gamers don't play online. You seem to have took it personal that he's suggesting things that would have made the game more interesting, and you took the article way out of context and way too serious. You're saying people need to acknowledge what 2K attempted to do, no one put a gun to their heads and told them to put out a game where you know people would be critical for various and obvious reasons. In this day and age, is it too much to ask for a franchise mode? Is it too much to ask for the presentation to be atleast on par with NFL 2K on a next gen console? Is it too much to ask not to have duplicate players lining up in the same game? I think you get the point by now. I for one understand what IGN was saying, and its just speaks to an larger issue. This was and is not an NFL license game, get out of safe mode, stop treating it as such, and make your own brand of football. No one is saying that this has to be APF Blitz 2K8/9, but you are (talking about 2K) no longer associated with the NFL.

2K definitely tripped over themselves by making some frustratingly head-scratching choices. The game gives you no control over the cpu teams, and the generics. Perhaps if they approached the game with the idea of giving people that near-full customization many wanted (over everything except the legends), it would've extended the game's replay value somewhat on it's own. Personally I feel that was 2K's single biggest mistake. No franchise was a biggie also, but I think a bare-boned franchise mode would've been tagged useless and gotten almost as much flak as the hardcore gave it for not being there in the first place. In the end I think 2K was trying too hard to seperate themselves from the NFL. I can understand the approach, but in the end it's obvious that was pretty much unavoidable. I endorsed the approach myself and was wrong.

I agree with some of your setiments, but why are you automatically assuming that if a much needed franchise was included, that it would be bare bones? Was their last football game franchise mode bare bones prior to All pro? No. Once again, you're being an apologist for 2K. Have you ever thought about what if it would have been good and even deeper than the franchise mode of NFL 2K5? There's a flip side to what you're saying. at them not including a franchise because they were trying to seperate themselves from the NFL. Please stop with the non sense. They didn't include it because they didn't think hard enough on how to implement a franchise mode with legends.

Still there's a lot 2K did right with the game, particularly on the field. And that's the frustrating thing - it's easy to see the game's immense potential that will likely never be realized. From what I've read APF didn't have a full compliment of people working on the game; it wasn't approached like an NFL2K or an NBA2K would be. Which makes sense, because it was a risky undertaking in the first place. But I think given that it's still pretty remarkable what they accomplished on their first attempt. Sadly gamers weren't going to show the game the patience they've shown Madden and NCAA, and in return we're going to miss out on something that could've been special in year 2/3, not year 5/6

Again I agree with your notion that All pro had potential and also had flashes of greatness, but again, you follow that up with an excuse as to why All Pro 2K8 wasn't up to par in alot of people minds. Do you think I as a gamer, care about how many people was working on the game? NO I don't give a F, when I'm dishing out 60 plus dollars for it, and then I have somewhat high expectations. I'm not trying to hear about anyones excuses as to why a game isn't as good as alot of people thought it would. I knew it was just a matter of time until you mention Madden. I, for one have been done with Madden since it release one of the worse games I've ever played in Madden 06 (next gen), so no I don't have patience for EA B.S either. Just imagine the uproar you would hear not only from this site, but from all football gamers if Madden didn't have a franchise mode. You can speculate however much want to, but you don't know the exact reason why 2K sports didn't release an All pro videogame this year. Stop blaming people for a change and blame 2K for not releasing all pro this year. They fumbled the ball and that's that.

[videobastard]

Re: APF 2K9: What Could Have Been

I agree with the people saying drop the legends, add fileshare, great customize feature, franchise mode and improved graphics.

[Triathlete_201]

Re: APF 2K9: What Could Have Been

I agree with the people saying drop the legends, add fileshare, great customize feature, franchise mode and improved graphics.

Agreed! Although I love the playing with the legends in 2K8, if they make another game, I'd rather have them spend all that money on everything you just mentioned. I honestly feel if they added file share, full customization, top notch presentation, graphics, etc. the game would sell very well.

[TCF]

the only problem i had with all of the 2k series was how they designed the facemasks on the helmets they looked cartoonish and for some reason that didn't agree with me. plus i couldn't stand the actors who were the commentators the game play was good and the presentation was awesome.

[spankdatazz22]

Re: APF 2K9: What Could Have Been

I agree with some of your setiments, but why are you automatically assuming that if a much needed franchise was included, that it would be bare bones? Was their last football game franchise mode bare bones prior to All pro? No. Once again, you're being an apologist for 2K. Have you ever thought about what if it would have been good and even deeper than the franchise mode of NFL 2K5? There's a flip side to what you're saying. at them not including a franchise because they were trying to seperate themselves from the NFL. Please stop with the non sense. They didn't include it because they didn't think hard enough on how to implement a franchise mode with legends.

lol seems I've pissed off a lot of people with my posts the last few days here and in the Madden forum. No prob. First, my opinion on the football gods idea was just that - an opinion. And I thought I did point out that what the author brought up was that we all have our ideas about which direction 2K should've taken. I don't think we've ever been able to come up with a consensus on what the game should be. Pre-release, there was a strong contingent of people that wanted fully customizable, 2 conference, 4 division, 32-teams at a minimum - which sounds awfully familar. Or at least the option to create that format, or any format they desired.

Regarding the franchise issue, most people logically assume if they had added one it would've been bare-bones simply because of the complexity of trying to develop something new. How would progression work with the new ratings system that has no numbers visible to the gamer? How would the legends be incorporated? What would be a fair financial structure? How are the yearly pool of college players generated/raked/rated? These are just things off the top of my head - I'm sure there's a ton of complexity involved in trying to develop a legitimate franchise mode. I don't think any of the current sports games have had to start from scratch developing a franchise mode. For example, while I'd guess while much of Madden next gen's franchise mode isn't exactly the same as the current gen version, I'd guess they were able to use *some* of the current gen version's code as a base. And well they should, because franchise mode was very well done last gen.

While 2K might be able to keep the format, pretty much all the names/numbers had to change at the very least, because they no longer had the NFLPA license. Then they'd have to think how to structure players given their focus on player abilities versus player ratings. I'm no programmer; I'm just wondering aloud what I'd think would be hurdles in trying to develop a functional franchise mode. I was also taking into account they didn't have the same number of people working on the game as they did the NFL2Kx games. Yes, I should've taken the god idea more seriously and looked at how it might've circumvented some of the issues I noted above. But as I said - everybody had their own idea on what they wanted the game to be. For some, the themed stadiums were too much and not grounded in reality enough.

Again I agree with your notion that All pro had potential and also had flashes of greatness, but again, you follow that up with an excuse as to why All Pro 2K8 wasn't up to par in alot of people minds. Do you think I as a gamer, care about how many people was working on the game? NO I don't give a F, when I'm dishing out 60 plus dollars for it, and then I have somewhat high expectations. I'm not trying to hear about anyones excuses as to why a game isn't as good as alot of people thought it would. I knew it was just a matter of time until you mention Madden. I, for one have been done with Madden since it release one of the worse games I've ever played in Madden 06 (next gen), so no I don't have patience for EA B.S either. Just imagine the uproar you would hear not only from this site, but from all football gamers if Madden didn't have a franchise mode. You can speculate however much want to, but you don't know the exact reason why 2K sports didn't release an All pro videogame this year. Stop blaming people for a change and blame 2K for not releasing all pro this year. They fumbled the ball and that's that.

Imo it wouldn't make sense to waste time developing a franchise mode you know would essentially be broken for the sake of saying there's a franchise mode. And for the reasons I noted above, I would think it would be difficult to get a functioning franchise mode in year one. I've said myself - 2K made a lot of mistakes themselves. They should've involved the community more. In retrospect it probably would've been better to wait another year. The game is unnecessarily restrictive. I've been harping on the horrible uniform choices since day one. I hate that they didn't redo the juke system. Etc. etc., I could name a ton of things I feel they got wrong. I wasn't trying to excuse 2K. But, I look at the game as a first year next gen effort - when compared to other first year next gen sports game efforts compares favorably, if not better, than many. Imo the game was judged more against 2nd/3rd year games and expectations, which isn't a fair comparison.

As to why I don't blame them for releasing another game, the fact is the standard should be different. I wouldn't pick up Blitz expecting it to give me some sim experience. I wouldn't pick up Burnout expecting it to give me some racing experience it's not intended to give. As you said, 2K chose to place more emphasis on the online functionality of APF. Rightly or wrongly, that's the choice they made; that was the game's intention. A lot of the issues we're discussing are the limitations or what the game's lacking offline. I'm not much of an online gamer myself so I understand the frustration. But, 2K did choose to place more emphasis on the online portion of the game.

EDIT: just to add, I think Backbreaker if it sees the light of day will go through something similar - have been saying it all along. It's not going to be judged for the first year game it is