APF 2K9: What Could Have Been

**mwjr** · 07-30-2008, 01:41 PM

Forget football gods. Forget teams crossing eras.

Just add a franchise option where you can opt to use all fictional characters in a fictional league.

The gameplay is amazing. Always has been. If you add a franchise and drop the cost from $59 to, say, $29, license or no, people are going to buy the game.

**totalownership** · 07-30-2008, 01:52 PM

Re: APF 2K9: What Could Have Been

I always thought that the Legends should have been used as owners/coaches not as actually players. Now don't get me wrong their idea was great too and being a person who doesn't care too much about franchise in football it doesn't bother me too much but for others actually playing Legends in franchise is wrong.

**kcxiv** · 07-30-2008, 02:10 PM

Re: APF 2K9: What Could Have Been

First off. APF was made for online play. They stated that from the get go. Jeff Thomas i think his name was, said this game is for the hardcore 2K5 fans. It was a barebones game, but they stated that from the get go. They didnt lie to their fans. They were up front about it. They also said they wanted to release a football game every 2 years.

Game has some problems just like every sports game, but imo their problems were not completely broken like we have seen from the game that was just released. IMO, they did a damned fine job in their first step towards next gen football. It was by far the best gameplay game ever created that i have played. I though Madden 05 was decent, i just cant get over ea's animations they are horrible and not fluid. 2k5 while it was the total package did have problems with to much animation at times. Seriously toned down in 2k8 though.

I am sure if they were going on their 3rd game and not their 7th or 8th game like the other football games, it would be heads and shoulders better then what you all get this year. Yeah, i said you all, becuase i am not falling for their crap. lol

Another thing about people saying they should have recreated the nfl in 2k8. They already said, that they were hoping to acquire the NFL license for 2k10 i beleive, but since the NFL is ******** and reupped with EA, thats out the window. They have no reason to not let you go full out custimization for another game.

While we dont have alot of info, they did say that the series is not dead. So we really dont know wtf is going on. lol

**metallicatz** · 07-30-2008, 03:31 PM

I'd venture to say there are/were far more hardcore 2K gamers playing offline than online. APF was a day 1 purchase for me, but since the game was virtually a direct port of 2K5 (which I already have and would rather play than APF) missing 90% of the bells & whistles........it wasn't more than a couple of weeks before it went back to Gamestop. I know I wasn't the only one judging from the big stack of used copies I saw on the shelf when I took mine back. 2K screwed up huge with APF.

**asu666** · 07-30-2008, 05:10 PM

"While we dont have alot of info, they did say that the series is not dead. So we really dont know wtf is going on." kcxiv

EA has the NFL covered for years to come. 2K has a better playing game and should press on with the total customization theme and forget the licenses. I would love to create my own league, or be able to download some crazy fan's version of the NCAA or even the NFL. It's a really beautiful concept because 2K basically just has to focus on making little improvements to the gameplay engine, graphics, and content creation tools. Most game devs would love it if they just had to come up with the tools to trick out a game and didn't actually have to design every little detail themselves and put all of the assets in place.

**Valdarez** · 07-31-2008, 02:57 AM

You really lost me on the whole football Gods concept. They need to dump the Legends in the game, use the money they spent on the Legends on putting a story / backdrop on a custom league, and then provide complete customization such that we can have a virtual Orange Box for football gaming where we can create our own NCAA, NFL, Arena League, Canadian style, or even high school football leagues.

Other than the Football Gods concept, most of what you presented has been discussed in the forums. In fact, there are a couple of lines there that look copy/pasted directly from the forums themselves.

I read a lot on APF, so for me at least, nothing new in the story.

A better game would include a fictional league, with a complete backdrop ala Blitz the League, and there's an expansion where you're allowed to create a team from scratch. You get a few left over Vets, but must build the team from scratch, starting out with mostly scrubs. As the team progresses, players gain abilities, and raise in their Tier (progress).

Instead of a normal CAP mode, players create football players using an RPG'ish style build trees, such that players can't create over powered players, and they have a speed back, power back, or all around back, or a speed WR, or a possession WR.

I have a 20 page write up that I put together for 2K Sports that they basically ignored that I can share some day if you want a write that incorporates ideas from the forums, and a lot of other new ones like the ones listed here, complete with game play changes and screen shots to boot. PM me if you want an article on it, and I'll see what I can do.

**Valdarez** · 07-31-2008, 03:09 AM

Re: APF 2K9: What Could Have Been

Originally posted by asu666

EA has the NFL covered for years to come. 2K has a better playing game and should press on with the total customization theme and forget the licenses. I would love to create my own league, or be able to download some crazy fan's version of the NCAA or even the NFL. It's a really beautiful concept because 2K basically just has to focus on making little improvements to the gameplay engine, graphics, and content creation tools.

Dead on. User Content is not only the future, it's now. Look at places like wikipedia, myspace, urbandictionary.com even. Users are more than willing to create their own content when it's something they enjoy.

Focus on the tools.
Make them PC available.
Provide a share system (2K Share, whatever).

Sit back and watch as 2K Sports enjoys a lower cost of delivering a more realistic football experience that fans can cater to their own desires.

**Malachi** · 07-31-2008, 08:58 AM

Re: APF 2K9: What Could Have Been

Originally posted by spankdatazz22

lol seems I've pissed off a lot of people with my posts the last few days here and in the Madden forum. No prob. First, my opinion on the football gods idea was just that - an opinion. And I thought I did point out that what the author brought up was that we all have our ideas about which direction 2K should've taken. I don't think we've ever been able to come up with a consensus on what the game should be. Pre-release, there was a strong contingent of people that wanted fully customizable, 2 conference, 4 division, 32-teams at a minimum - which sounds awfully familar. Or at least the option to create that format, or any format they desired.

oNotOptimizeForBrowser/> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><style>  </style> As I’ve said at the opening of my last post, I don’t care about what you think about the article being good or not. Especially when you admitted to not even reading it, but yet still found a way to be critical of it as if it’s slamming the game for being crap. Again, the football gods idea was nothing more than an idea, a creative one at that, that seemed like it could have actually worked and added much needed substance and replay value to the game. I applaud the article and the person who wrote it for the simple fact that this is one of the few ideas I’ve heard where it could actually work. Sure it would need to be tweaked, and reformulated in a way that it would all make sense, but the core of the idea is solid. It’s funny that you say people wanted the ability to fully customize everything, but yet that was one of 2K’s biggest selling points for All Pro 2K8, customization. I don’t think it’s too much to ask for a non-licensed game to be largely customizable. Regardless of what you and I think, 2K needed something that would make people say “okay, this may not be the NFL, but it’s a hell of a football and gaming experience that I see myself playing for awhile, at least to the next installment comes out.” And, in my opinion All Pro definitely didn’t do that and fell short of it.

I see those who are fans of All Pro say there’s so many combinations of players that they’ve have yet to use. Wow, is that what’s suppose to keep gamers coming back to play the game, putting together different teams? I’m sorry, but I’m not appease nor am I enticed by the thought of putting together different teams every time I’m done with a single season. In fact, this goes to my point even more about customization, franchise mode, etc and how those things were strongly needed. I never felt connected to with my “created team”. A lot of people fail to factor in that part when talking about sports game. A lot of people buy sports games solely because they are connected to their favorite teams or players. All pro needed to find a way to feel that void, and I think a largely customizable game, and a franchise mode would have been somewhat a remedy for that.

Regarding the franchise issue, most people logically assume if they had added one it would've been bare-bones simply because of the complexity of trying to develop something new. How would progression work with the new ratings system that has no numbers visible to the gamer? How would the legends be incorporated? What would be a fair financial structure? How are the yearly pool of college players generated/raked/rated? These are just things off the top of my head - I'm sure there's a ton of complexity involved in trying to develop a legitimate franchise mode. I don't think any of the current sports games have had to start from scratch developing a franchise mode. For example, while I'd guess while much of Madden next gen's franchise mode isn't exactly the same as the current gen version, I'd guess they were able to use *some* of the current gen version's code as a base. And well they should, because franchise mode was very well done last gen.
While 2K might be able to keep the format, pretty much all the names/numbers had to change at the very least, because they no longer had the NFLPA license. Then they'd have to think how to structure players given their focus on player abilities versus player ratings. I'm no programmer; I'm just wondering aloud what I'd think would be hurdles in trying to develop a functional franchise mode.

I was also taking into account they didn't have the same number of people working on the game as they did the NFL2Kx games. Yes, I should've taken the god idea more seriously and looked at how it might've circumvented some of the issues I noted above. But as I said - everybody had their own idea on what they wanted the game to be. For some, the themed stadiums were too much and not grounded in reality enough.

oNotOptimizeForBrowser/> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><style>  </style> I said this in my last post. You said the reason why All pro didn’t have a franchise mode was because they were trying to branch out from the NFL. And I also find it funny that you’re asking all of these questions when the article itself found away that All pro could have gotten a franchise mode to work. To answer some of your questions however, they could have kept the same system that they have. When a player is progressing, or having a “hot streak”, weapons or special abilities could have been added under the players’ profile. The same thing goes for regression, weapons could have been taking away. Legends could have easily been included in an ongoing franchise mode. You could have had them where they were in their prime, thus playing for a longer period of time, you could put time constraints on how long a legend plays, not to let my ideas run amok, but it could have been goals that a legend wanted to accomplish, and once achieving them, or not achieving them, they would retire. The financial structure (if there would be any at all) would be up to the developers to decide. Why would the pool of players that you choose from have to be college players?

All of the questions you ask just goes to show that you’re being closed minded about this entire thing, and of course, you’re trying to defend 2K for not having a franchise mode in All pro. And I also think you’re misunderstanding what people are asking for. I for one am not asking for a long drawn out franchise mode that would span over 20 years; all I’m asking for is a good 5 years of franchise mode.

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oNotOptimizeForBrowser/> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><style> *</style>But you know what, I wouldn’t have had a problem and I would have lowered my expectations drastically if they would have took the NFL 2K5 route and charged 20 bucks for this game. It could have been a reintroduction to 2K football if you will, but 60 bucks? I bought All Pro for the simple fact that I thought it could be on the level of NFL 2K5.Not exceeding it, but it would at the very least be on par with it. I was wrong. You see the price that All Pro 2K8 is now? That’s exactly how much it’s worth, and how much it should have cost from the jump. <link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Owner/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msoclip1/01/clip_filelist.xml"><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w

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You keep bringing up however many people worked on the game, again, I don’t care to know and it doesn’t concern me as a gamer who has nothing invested in 2K sports. If you want to use that as an excuse, I can easily say that they had over three years between football titles to get ideas out in the open and make something concrete. Honestly, what you need to realize, NO game is above criticism. That includes All Pro, Madden, NCAA Football, NBA 2K, NBA Live, etc. People will always find something wrong with a game and yes people have visions on how they want a game to play and how its played. Some want the ultimate sim experience from all of these titles aforementioned, and some just want to have fun while playing. Usually, what a developer does is try to find a common ground to appease both hardcore and casual gamers, and that’s when the conflict and criticisms take place. All pro is no different than any other game. But the difference is when you hear how things should be fixed or added REPEATEDLY. That’s when you know there’s a problem, and that’s when these developers are force to listen on how they can fix or improve their game.

**spankdatazz22** · 07-31-2008, 10:27 AM

Re: APF 2K9: What Could Have Been

Originally posted by Malachi

It’s funny that you say people wanted the ability to fully customize everything, but yet that was one of 2K’s biggest selling points for All Pro 2K8, customization. I don’t think it’s too much to ask for a non-licensed game to be largely customizable. Regardless of what you and I think, 2K needed something that would make people say “okay, this may not be the NFL, but it’s a hell of a football and gaming experience that I see myself playing for awhile, at least to the next installment comes out.” And, in my opinion All Pro definitely didn’t do that and fell short of it.

Of course it fell short - they were one and done. But as you said, they seem to have focused more on the online portion of the game versus the offline portion of the game. As I said, rightly or wrongly that's the direction they chose. And from the way the game is structured, they wanted to maintain some sense of balance so you wouldn't get online and see the same combinations of players on every team. AS I SAID, as a mostly offline player myself the offline portion of the game is somewhat disappointing because it seems needlessly restrictive. But I'm not sure why certain decisions were made. I'd guess if you're going to have full customization offline, they may have needed to have two roster files, one for online and one for offline so there would be no way a gamer could circumvent the system and create some player combination that was unstoppable and make the online portion of the game mostly unplayable. It took less than a month for someone to create a 7ft (i think) receiver with x-capabilities.

The reason I brought up the number of people working on the game is because there's no way they'd be able to account for the unlimited number of combinations and variables people were going to come up with. Things every other dev has to deal with. But if you're working with less people, it only makes sense to extend yourself enough as to be able to control things to a certain degree.

Originally posted by Malachi

I see those who are fans of All Pro say there’s so many combinations of players that they’ve have yet to use. Wow, is that what’s suppose to keep gamers coming back to play the game, putting together different teams?

For online players I could see where it is. And where your skills as a player versus your choices while working within the limitations of the system truly show if someone is the better player.

Originally posted by Malachi

You said the reason why All pro didn’t have a franchise mode was because they were trying to branch out from the NFL. And I also find it funny that you’re asking all of these questions when the article itself found away that All pro could have gotten a franchise mode to work.

*sigh* First, I seriously doubt I said All Pro didn't have a franchise mode because they were trying to be different from the NFL lol. I said there are complications in trying to implement a franchise mode and rattled off questions I'd have in trying to create a franchise mode. I'm sure there are a ton more issues that need to be taken into account that I'm not even considering. Of course there are probably ways it could work - just as they could choose a way that didn't work. I spoke to the complexity of the situation.

Originally posted by Malachi

All of the questions you ask just goes to show that you’re being closed minded about this entire thing, and of course, you’re trying to defend 2K for not having a franchise mode in All pro. And I also think you’re misunderstanding what people are asking for. I for one am not asking for a long drawn out franchise mode that would span over 20 years; all I’m asking for is a good 5 years of franchise mode.

see above. glad you were only asking for a 5yrs frachise mode lol. That's a new one to me

Originally posted by Malachi

But you know what, I wouldn’t have had a problem and I would have lowered my expectations drastically if they would have took the NFL 2K5 route and charged 20 bucks for this game. It could have been a reintroduction to 2K football if you will, but 60 bucks? I bought All Pro for the simple fact that I thought it could be on the level of NFL 2K5. Not exceeding it, but it would at the very least be on par with it. I was wrong. You see the price that All Pro 2K8 is now? That’s exactly how much it’s worth, and how much it should have cost from the jump.

Cost definitely factored into people's expectations. And in retrospect it would've been better to release the game at $39.99 or $49.99. But practically every game releases at the same price regardless of quality - Superman 360 had the same msrp as Grand Theft Auto. I've seen no original 360/PS3 release at less than that so I don't get the expectation that the title should've been $20 since that's all it's worth in your opinion (guess the price is lower). Expecting the game to be on par with NFL2K5 never should've been an expectation - that's totally unrealistic on your part.

Originally posted by Malachi

You keep bringing up however many people worked on the game, again, I don’t care to know and it doesn’t concern me as a gamer who has nothing invested in 2K sports. If you want to use that as an excuse, I can easily say that they had over three years between football titles to get ideas out in the open and make something concrete.

See above; the number of people working on the game combined with the need to develop a new football concept should've brought about more grounded expectations. I listed a bunch of problems I had with the game, and I have a ton more. But my expectations were a little more realistic. Just as I wouldn't expect the world from Backbreaker when it comes out. But many people will.

**mwjr** · 07-31-2008, 12:00 PM

Originally posted by Valdarez

You really lost me on the whole football Gods concept. They need to dump the Legends in the game, use the money they spent on the Legends on putting a story / backdrop on a custom league, and then provide complete customization such that we can have a virtual Orange Box for football gaming where we can create our own NCAA, NFL, Arena League, Canadian style, or even high school football leagues.

Other than the Football Gods concept, most of what you presented has been discussed in the forums. In fact, there are a couple of lines there that look copy/pasted directly from the forums themselves.

I read a lot on APF, so for me at least, nothing new in the story.

A better game would include a fictional league, with a complete backdrop ala Blitz the League, and there's an expansion where you're allowed to create a team from scratch. You get a few left over Vets, but must build the team from scratch, starting out with mostly scrubs. As the team progresses, players gain abilities, and raise in their Tier (progress).

Instead of a normal CAP mode, players create football players using an RPG'ish style build trees, such that players can't create over powered players, and they have a speed back, power back, or all around back, or a speed WR, or a possession WR.

I have a 20 page write up that I put together for 2K Sports that they basically ignored that I can share some day if you want a write that incorporates ideas from the forums, and a lot of other new ones like the ones listed here, complete with game play changes and screen shots to boot. PM me if you want an article on it, and I'll see what I can do.

I wouldn't dump the legends; I think there is a certain appeal to that.

I would, however, make their presence optional. I'd include a variety of modes - e.g. season, franchise, career, superstar - with fictional leagues, teams and players.

However, I'd also add an option to each of those modes which would allow me to play either (a)without any legends or (b)with legends.

Problem solved.

Where's my royalty check, 2K?

**Valdarez** · 07-31-2008, 12:18 PM

Re: APF 2K9: What Could Have Been

Originally posted by mwjr

I wouldn't dump the legends; I think there is a certain appeal to that.

I would, however, make their presence optional. I'd include a variety of modes - e.g. season, franchise, career, superstar - with fictional leagues, teams and players.

However, I'd also add an option to each of those modes which would allow me to play either (a)without any legends or (b)with legends.

Problem solved.

Where's my royalty check, 2K?

So you want to incur the costs of the x-NFLers and a fictional league. That's too much to ask from a game that's struggling to get by. I'd cut the costs where ever I can, while still providing the ability for the fans to create any custom content they want. If I can't track an ROI to the investment, then I wouldn't incur the cost of the investment. If anything, APF2K8 has shown us that the Legend players are not enough to sale the game.

**spankdatazz22** · 07-31-2008, 01:57 PM

Re: APF 2K9: What Could Have Been

I do think the legends add a known personality to the game. With only generics, the average person isn't going to identify with any player or team - if they're all randoms. Most people know Dan Marino, Joe Montana, Barry Sanders, Nighttrain Lane, etc. and know their abilities off the bat. I would think having full/near-full customization for the generics while retaining the legends would be ideal. I would think they shouldn't have the legends at their current ages, as some of them look way too old to be putting on helmets. Have them look as they did during their playing days

**CPRoark** · 07-31-2008, 02:08 PM

Re: APF 2K9: What Could Have Been

Originally posted by Valdarez

Other than the Football Gods concept, most of what you presented has been discussed in the forums. In fact, there are a couple of lines there that look copy/pasted directly from the forums themselves.

I read a lot on APF, so for me at least, nothing new in the story.

A better game would include a fictional league, with a complete backdrop ala Blitz the League...I have a 20 page write up that I put together for 2K Sports that they basically ignored that I can share some day if you want a write that incorporates ideas from the forums, and a lot of other new ones like the ones listed here, complete with game play changes and screen shots to boot. PM me if you want an article on it, and I'll see what I can do.

As I said to another poster, I knew going in that the "football gods" concept would be hit or miss with some people. It was simply a way to include the legends (which probably wouldn't have been dropped for 2K9...it was their "thing") in a mode that would add some legitimate longevity.

The argument whether to include legends or not is a valid one, but wasn't the point of my article. I like your idea of a fictional league, and that's what is meant by "context." I'm not sure I have the time or desire to read a 20 page dissertation on APF, but I certainly applaud your dedication. I wouldn't take it personally that 2K "ignored" it...most companies do not accept or even read unsolicited ideas. If they even adopted part of your tome, would you expect any kind of acknowledgment or reimbursement? Probably, as would any other armchair developer who sends in ideas. Now 2K, instead of spending money on a game, is passing it out to amateur developers or--more realistically--litigation fees to combat those who are looking for their cut.

Finally, before you make claims of plagiarism, please have evidence. I'm sure that my writing is influenced, much like your 20 page report, by what is said in the forums. In fact, I come out and recognize in some areas what the community's wishes are. However, your insinuation that I used "copy/paste" is without basis and egregious. I can't imagine OS would keep writers around who need to stoop to cannibalizing its own readership. Besides, have you seen the spelling/grammar in a large portion of the posts on here?

**Valdarez** · 07-31-2008, 03:10 PM

Re: APF 2K9: What Could Have Been

Originally posted by CPRoark

I like your idea of a fictional league, and that's what is meant by "context." I'm not sure I have the time or desire to read a 20 page dissertation on APF, but I certainly applaud your dedication. I wouldn't take it personally that 2K "ignored" it...most companies do not accept or even read unsolicited ideas. If they even adopted part of your tome, would you expect any kind of acknowledgment or reimbursement? Probably, as would any other armchair developer who sends in ideas. Now 2K, instead of spending money on a game, is passing it out to amateur developers or--more realistically--litigation fees to combat those who are looking for their cut.

Realize I'm a professional software developer (Enterprise Software Architect) who is used to pouring of software documents as well as producing them. Right now I'm considering moving into product management (a bit of change / more business focused than technical) and have been spending a lot of time reading / producing BRDs (business requirement documents) as well as PRD (product requirement documents). The tome you referred to was very well written, broken down into distinct categories with justifications for each feature. One of the guys at 2K Sports said it was the better than anything they had seen internally. Now, he could have just been trying to make me feel good, if so, it worked, but it wasn't just a list of 'add this please'. Someone did look at the document, I just never received any official feedback on it, which was disappointing after all the work. The only feedback I got was from my contact, and I was hoping to have at least an email conversation with one of the developers or the producers so I could publish it on the 2K Football Strategy website and provide the fans of the game a little bit of info.

The document was culmination of fan requests, coupled with other new features that I had thought of myself (not from the forums). That was my only take away from the article. Other than the Football Gods approach, there wasn't really any new thinking in the article, and, unfortunately, the Football Gods approach doesn't really fit in with the sports genre all that well.

Originally posted by CPRoark

Finally, before you make claims of plagiarism, please have evidence. I'm sure that my writing is influenced, much like your 20 page report, by what is said in the forums. In fact, I come out and recognize in some areas what the community's wishes are. However, your insinuation that I used "copy/paste" is without basis and egregious. I can't imagine OS would keep writers around who need to stoop to cannibalizing its own readership. Besides, have you seen the spelling/grammar in a large portion of the posts on here?

Please don't tell me something I said is without basis, when you haven't even asked for evidence, that's extremely rude. A simple, 'no I didn't copy/paste', and 'you must be confused, can you provide evidence' would have sufficed. I'm not going to take the time to post something if there's not a basis for it. Perhaps the wording that I used was a little strong, but I have seen the same thing several times in the forums (which doesn't necessarily mean the OS forums), and, this again, goes along with no new ideas in the article theme which was my main observation.

From the 2K Sports Forums
http://2ksports.com/forums/showthrea...=178425&page=4

I swear I spend more time editing my team in APF than I do playing the game.

Your Quote

During the year I've owned 2K8, I've put more time into creating teams than I have actually playing the game.

So, you're right, it's not copy and pasted, but it's roughly the same idea, which is the point I was really trying to get across. Sorry if you took it as an attack on your ethics, it wasn't meant to be that way.

I run the www.2kfootballstrategy.com website and I'm mod over at the 2ksports.com forums, so I read a TON of posts about APF, which is why I tried to indicate that 'from my viewpoint', which is going to be a lot more diverse than your average reader.

On a bright note, it is good to see any 2K Football themed article on OS after the slew of EA related ones, and the article is very well written.

**CPRoark** · 07-31-2008, 04:12 PM

Re: APF 2K9: What Could Have Been

I didn't mean to sound as if your 20 page idea write-up was worthless or without merit, and it sounds as if you have the experience to create something that's meaningful. I read the "basically ignored" phrase as a bitter fan who dreamed up something as wild as my "football gods" idea and then was upset when 2K passed. This doesn't seem to be the case, and as always, it's hard to infer meaning behind text posts. I was honest that I don't have time to read 20 pages, but I'm certain that you could intrigue me with a basic summary.

Your statement about cut and paste did seem to be an attack on my credibility and honesty, but again, it's hard to read intent behind words. If you notice, I did ask for evidence before bringing down the hammer of "egregiousness." I suppose, as a writer, I am a little sensitive about such claims. It's now "water under the bridge" as far as I'm concerned.

Finally, I recognize that nothing but the football gods idea was earth shatteringly new. My approach was to look at what could have been done to improve this game without a complete overhaul, i.e. building on what was already there. I personally don't mind the legends if they are used in a more creative manner. I didn't go about writing the article with the thought of building my own "ultimate" football game; the foundation of APF still had to be there. To me, the biggest theme of APF was the legends; I wasn't going to scrap that in favor of a dream game.

I think that ultimately, we want APF or 2K5 or whatever, simply because its an alternative to Madden. However, fans aren't going to accept it without substance, whether its football gods or fictitious leagues.

APF 2K9: What Could Have Been

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