The Abomination That is Madden Nation

[chia51]

Re: The Abomination That is Madden Nation

I disagree with the blanket statement that EA is not committed to sim style footall. Madden 2010 features a brand new design team, all of which want to deliver an authentic NFL video game experience. I'm not saying the previous design team didn't, but understand that the Madden audience is incredibly diverse and we need to come up with features that provide a good experience for as many of them as possible.

Phil

First off that is the problem... you guys are too worried about adding new features to sell copies... when all you need to do is work on GAMEPLAY. If the gameplay simulates REAL FOOTBALL alot of this "cheese crap" would go out the window. There will always be exploits no matter what. But atleast it would be toned down to "realistic" cheese if thats possible.

[Exonerated]

Re: The Abomination That is Madden Nation

Just make the gameplay realistic, then its all good.

Its true, everyone like 70 yard tds and aerial shows. I do too. But in order to dominate the air, you need to be good. None of this scrambling and bombing off back foot crap.

Dominating passing is very hard but the rewards are very pretty.

Emulate this in Madden. Still allow for the huge completions and spectacular catches, but make them only successful because the user is playing good sim ball.

[faster]

Re: The Abomination That is Madden Nation

I disagree with the blanket statement that EA is not committed to sim style footall. Madden 2010 features a brand new design team, all of which want to deliver an authentic NFL video game experience. I'm not saying the previous design team didn't, but understand that the Madden audience is incredibly diverse and we need to come up with features that provide a good experience for as many of them as possible.

I personally don't enjoy the style of gameplay that is often used in tournament play or on Madden Nation. You will see this sort of game abuse in any product that's used for a competitive event. Let's be honest, if you knew of a tactic that you could run play after play and ultimately get you a real shot at winning $100,000 dollars, wouldn't you do it too? If you think people wouldn't use a glitch or cheese tactic in any other game to win a huge prize, I think you would be mistaken.

Over the years we've brought in guys that compete in these hyper-competitive environments with the purpose of squashing their tactics. It's become a cat and mouse game. We fix one problem and another pops up. We've even had Madden Challenge winners on our QA team to better find these issues before we ship.

In a perfect world, we provide a way for all styles of gameplay to exist. There should be a way for our hardcore fans (you) to set up a game that provides the ultimate sim experience. There should also be a place for more casual NFL fans to have a quick pick-up-and-play experience. This is something we've certainly discussed on the team and hope to better solve in the future.

Phil

Well said. There's certainly a balance that needs to be found. I think many of us have seen an improvement in Madden this year but there still remains countless bugs and strange AI that hampers the simulation feel. Why aren't these bugs and AI deficiencies all addressed? I have a feeling your testers are finding them. Why aren't they being squashed in time for the release of the game? Not enough time? Not important enough in the grand scheme of things? People want to blame testers but let's get real here folks. Testers found these issues, we all found many of them on day one and two.... these issues just weren't addressed by the programmers/team for one reason or another. Perhaps the testing cycle needs to happen earlier in the process so that ample time is given to fix the problems that are found and are truly preventing a solid game from arriving in stores.

[RedskinsGM2B]

Has EA considered designing 2 seperate games? I know, I know...marketing, advertising, franchising, dev cost, double the teams yadda, yadda. But, bare with me a second THEN you can tear me to pieces on such a "crazy" notion.
A HUGE percentage of "sim" fans are holdovers from the 2K series right? Sim players want a dedicated product aimed toward realistic presentation, gameplay and strategy. This would ALSO pacify the 2K5 fanatics. This would allow for a focused mission without the complexities and pitfalls of trying to include "EVERYTHING TO EVERBODY" on the same project. Then perhaps you would be able to bring back the nuances of this country's NFL (not ONLINE NFL) such as, the chain gangs, cheer leaders, crazy fans, more internal control of the franchise, pre-game, in-game, halftime, end of game highlights by a noted personality, POG's Halftime Hero...As a result, most of THIS demographic will play this "out of the box" with tears in their eyes, the way the NFL GODS intended. Just provide them with accurate roster updates and they'll send you money AFTER they've purchased the product. They'll even buy an "extra" copy for display & put it in a glass case on their mantle. LOL...seriously. All are happy in the SIM/2K5 camps.
On the other hand, design yet ANOTHER project that is 'intentionally" built & marketed to the "other" side of the house...cheezers, glitchers, playas...whatEVER you wanna call them. This product should cater to the wide open, no holds barred, see who can be the MOST ridiculous/shockingly creative addict. Without having to concentrate as much on impeccable representation or detail or worrying if this conflicts with the TRUE NFL, it leaves the door open to let it all hang out and let's the team focus on the 'fun factor". Both products can be supported online. Hell, try to engineer a way that the two camps could compete against each other if desired...wow, I heard crickets on that one.
With both crowds being catered to on dedicated endeavors, you cut down on the conflict in fans, conflicts in design, & conflicts in these forums. Both projects should be stellar quality when the focus is narrowed yet, you produce a supreme product!
You can ONLY say that this is unheard of to a certain degree. Take HEAD COACH (which only needs roster/coach updates to make this camp happy) for example. Head Coach pretty much has everything that crowd needs. You'd only need to retool it every now & again to polish it and keep it looking new. No, serious overhauls until you want to change graphics or something.
You could box these two "versions" of Madden together for a premium, seperate for greed...LOL Hell, market a combo pack with all included, Head Coach 2010, Madden "NFL" Football 2010, and...ready for this?...Madden "Skillz" Football 2010. Yeah, I know it was a pretty bad title but, you get the jist of it.
Bottom line is this; If you concentrate on ONE thing, ONE style...you DO manufacture the SUPERIOR product. As a result, you DO become the reigning authority in your respective specialty, leaving no room for argument. It WOULD be a major/costly undertaking. I understand this. However, it WOULD put an end to so many problems and unite such a diverse and demanding crowd under on banner. And, if your desire is to be KING of anything, a TRUE KING provides for ALL of his provinces & people.

[BezO]

Re: The Abomination That is Madden Nation

I disagree with the blanket statement that EA is not committed to sim style footall. Madden 2010 features a brand new design team, all of which want to deliver an authentic NFL video game experience. I'm not saying the previous design team didn't, but understand that the Madden audience is incredibly diverse and we need to come up with features that provide a good experience for as many of them as possible.

How can you be committed to sim football AND creating features for a diverse crowd? That method has shorted the sim crowd since... Those committments are contridictory. The casual gamer features DETRACT from the sim experience. You can't do both.

I personally don't enjoy the style of gameplay that is often used in tournament play or on Madden Nation. You will see this sort of game abuse in any product that's used for a competitive event. Let's be honest, if you knew of a tactic that you could run play after play and ultimately get you a real shot at winning $100,000 dollars, wouldn't you do it too? If you think people wouldn't use a glitch or cheese tactic in any other game to win a huge prize, I think you would be mistaken.

Over the years we've brought in guys that compete in these hyper-competitive environments with the purpose of squashing their tactics. It's become a cat and mouse game. We fix one problem and another pops up. We've even had Madden Challenge winners on our QA team to better find these issues before we ship.

You all can't implement AI that makes CPU controlled defenders more effective against plays run a certain number of times? That would at least help deter players from using the same plays over & over, from rolling out EVERY play.

IMO, the bigger problems are the lack of animations and meaningful ratings. If blocking interaction were better, for example, you couldn't roll out and break contain at will. And this has been an exploitable part of the game for years. This hasn't been a noticable issue when you brought these tourney guys in? Why hasn't that been addressed?

And if speed weren't the only factor determining a player's effectiveness, users would feel comfortable implementing styles other than roll out & chuck. Where are the good route running possession WRs & TEs? Where are the dominating run-blocking offensive lines? Give users something to use other than their speed guys.

Those tourney guys use what works. Why not make the football strategies work better than the Madden strategies? Those guys are obviously resourceful. And they will probably discover good football strategy easier than they find exploits. They get a headstart learning football strategy every Sunday.

In a perfect world, we provide a way for all styles of gameplay to exist. There should be a way for our hardcore fans (you) to set up a game that provides the ultimate sim experience. There should also be a place for more casual NFL fans to have a quick pick-up-and-play experience. This is something we've certainly discussed on the team and hope to better solve in the future.

This must be so much harder than we can imagine. Is it that tough to make the game sim, but allow the pick up & play experience on lower difficulties? It seems like you all can't separate sim from difficulty. And why not have sim & arcade modes?

Or maybe my definition of sim is different. To me, sim is not the outcome. It's not the difficulty. It's how you get to the result. It's the feel of the game. How players react, how they move, ect. IMO, you can have a user score 50 on the CPU without the cheesiness and have the game still look like football.

Minnesota/Chicago ended 41 to 48. And it wasn't because of sticky, suction blocking. It wasn't because QBs were able to break contain at will. It wasn't because DBs had eyes in back of their heads. It wasn't WRs breaking on balls they had no idea were coming. It WAS turnovers & opportunistic defense, good routes & poor coverage, good blocking & poor discipline on defense, ect. Why can't you all mimic that for pick up & play users?

IMO, the ONLY difference from the sim crowd, tourney crowd & casual gamer should be what difficulty and or mode they play on. The look & feel of the game doesn't have to change for everyone to have the experience they want.

[PaulZweber]

I disagree with the blanket statement that EA is not committed to sim style footall. Madden 2010 features a brand new design team, all of which want to deliver an authentic NFL video game experience. I'm not saying the previous design team didn't, but understand that the Madden audience is incredibly diverse and we need to come up with features that provide a good experience for as many of them as possible.

I personally don't enjoy the style of gameplay that is often used in tournament play or on Madden Nation. You will see this sort of game abuse in any product that's used for a competitive event. Let's be honest, if you knew of a tactic that you could run play after play and ultimately get you a real shot at winning $100,000 dollars, wouldn't you do it too? If you think people wouldn't use a glitch or cheese tactic in any other game to win a huge prize, I think you would be mistaken.

Over the years we've brought in guys that compete in these hyper-competitive environments with the purpose of squashing their tactics. It's become a cat and mouse game. We fix one problem and another pops up. We've even had Madden Challenge winners on our QA team to better find these issues before we ship.

In a perfect world, we provide a way for all styles of gameplay to exist. There should be a way for our hardcore fans (you) to set up a game that provides the ultimate sim experience. There should also be a place for more casual NFL fans to have a quick pick-up-and-play experience. This is something we've certainly discussed on the team and hope to better solve in the future.

Phil

The bugs that have been there for years are still there. You aren't exactly getting people to have much confidence in you by not releasing the DLC. Good luck making Madden 2010, I might pick it up used a few weeks after release.

[PaulZweber]

As for making two games, we haven't gotten one great game in a long time, I think they should just concentrate on that.

[Trevytrev11]

Re: The Abomination That is Madden Nation

Let's be honest, if you knew of a tactic that you could run play after play and ultimately get you a real shot at winning $100,000 dollars, wouldn't you do it too? If you think people wouldn't use a glitch or cheese tactic in any other game to win a huge prize, I think you would be mistaken.

But isn't it your guys job to prevent these obvious problems from being possible ? How many years in a row has a below average quarterback been able to drop back 10-15 yards and then throw on the run and hit a receiver perfectly 45 yards downfield who makes a catch in double coverage.

I understand this is a tactic used by a certain part of your audience, but it is only used because the game permits it. The game allows the success of this play to be almost as equal to a QB actually sitting in the pocket, stepping up to avoid the rush and hitting an open receiver.

In reality, the odds of the first situation being successful should be minute compared to the latter, but it's not the case.

I think that much of the cheese gameplay that we see is a product of the patterns that these players have been accustomed to for years. The reason they cheese and exploit the game is because they have never been penalized for doing so by realistic results and because the game allows it.

Maybe I'm overestimating the minds of these players and maybe you are underestimating, but we'll never know because they have never been forced to play football the way it is meant to be played. They have never really been penalized for doing what should be impossible or nearly impossible. Is it possible that after realizing 10 times in a row that rolling out with Chad Pennington and throwing downfield on the run isn't working that the player may be forced to try and stay in the pocket and hit a receiver for a 7 yard gain? Maybe once they realize the improbably isn't working they will learn to play a little smarter. Maybe if you force them to play football, they will play football.

Now you said glitches and tactics, but I'm focusing on tactics as this is what the programming should be trying to stop. True glitches will always come up and I beleive that a true glitch is purely unintentional and just a miss...but a tactic that works over and over when it shouldn't is completely different.

[LingeringRegime]

Bravo!!!! Best article I have read in a long time!

[asu666]

Removing the Turbo button, improving the run game, and highlighting the benefits of staying in the pocket would go a long way towards fixing the gameplay. I miss the clock run down feature in the Xbox/PS2 version too. The one where a play is choosen and the play clock quickly runs down to 20 seconds. Add that in with a timing simular to the way the QB approachs the line in ESPN NFL 2K5 so there is time to make defensive adjustments. The ball almost never gets snapped in the NFL with more than 10 seconds on the play clock. Most of the time there is only a few seconds left when it's snapped. It's a waste of money to have the ESPN license and not put the presentation in the game. Menu presentation is fine, but let's see some ESPN NFL 2K5 style statistical overlays.

[RedskinsGM2B]

As for making two games, we haven't gotten one great game in a long time, I think they should just concentrate on that.

Well, you're exactly right. That's what I'm saying too. They've simply proven, year in & year out that, ONE GREAT, ALL INCLUSIVE, PLEASE EVERYONE, HAVE EVERYTHING game is NOT going to happen. The REASON it's not gonna happen is because they THINK that they can. The reason this game continues to have so many issues, misrepresentations, A(not so)I that doesn't adjust, etc., is because the designers are given this incredibly ridiculous assignment to create a product that embodies EVERYTHING! Problem with that is, all the different aspects that are supposed to attract & please all the different crowds...conflicts with each other. And, due to content/space restrictions, packing in sooo many different bells & whistles forsakes space that could be used to include the work and substance required to transform the current version of this game into what most "NFL" football fans need to see & experience to feel like it's ONE GREAT GAME.
On a completely different disc, without some of the "scientifically exact" interpretations of "NFL" football, you have the world at your feet to create the ONE GREAT GAME for the "Fictional" football fan.
There simply can't be any "effective" focus because the current goal to to have "everything" in there & to have "effective" focus, you must dedicate your attention and effort in ONE direction. As long as EA is trying to produce the "EVERYTHING" game, "NOTHING" will ever be as good as it COULD be.
I say, STOP trying to focus on everything. Stop trying to market a product that "has it all". That's not what we want anyway. The ones that want a dedicated NFL game don't want to play with the likes of the FICTIONAL footballers anyway. So why the need to have it all in one product??? Ahhh...the "overhead" word comes to mind. PROFIT margin is another ugly thing we don't want to admit because it sounds selfish and it doesn't paint EA in a consumer conscious shade, does it?
We are a society of choice. Not to give us that choice is as close to communism as it gets. Ouch! That doesn't sound patriotic either & what's considered the most patriotic sport in the nation? I know...I'm ranting. I'll stop.
Focus on ONE game! Exactly what you say. ONE game. FOOTBALL. If there is a considerate market for "arcade"& casual gamers, have another department focus on that ONE game. I think "arcade" & "casual" gamers can fit under one roof. The result would be ONE GREAT GAME for the "NFL" football crowd & ONE GREAT GAME for the "FICTIONAL" football crowd. Win & Win. There wouldn't be a point where we find that we are "settling" for anything. The quality of EACH game would be superior to any that we've seen in years because the Devs from each product was able to dedicate their entire soul & focus to that ONE specific game that was tailored to its respective demographic. So, I agree completely with that. We do indeed want just ONE GREAT GAME. It's simply a matter of choice. What kind a gamer are you? Well here ya go! The Best Football Game for "YOU"! What's wrong with that? Heck, you might even find that some consumers would cross lines and own BOTH! WHOA! What a concept. Optimizing product quality AND mulitplying potential sales. On THAT day, EA wouldn't need to pay for any exclusive rights because they would be the "ELITE" of BOTH gaming crowds and would still dominate the market. Another win?

[Abar22]

I tuned in for an episode of it. Some guy had the Bengals and he did a FB Dive with Chad Ocho-Cinco. I was embarrassed that someone would even employ such tactics. In all honesty, some of these guys don't even seem that good...

[RedskinsGM2B]

But isn't it your guys job to prevent these obvious problems from being possible ? How many years in a row has a below average quarterback been able to drop back 10-15 yards and then throw on the run and hit a receiver perfectly 45 yards downfield who makes a catch in double coverage.

I understand this is a tactic used by a certain part of your audience, but it is only used because the game permits it. The game allows the success of this play to be almost as equal to a QB actually sitting in the pocket, stepping up to avoid the rush and hitting an open receiver.

In reality, the odds of the first situation being successful should be minute compared to the latter, but it's not the case.

I think that much of the cheese gameplay that we see is a product of the patterns that these players have been accustomed to for years. The reason they cheese and exploit the game is because they have never been penalized for doing so by realistic results and because the game allows it.

Maybe I'm overestimating the minds of these players and maybe you are underestimating, but we'll never know because they have never been forced to play football the way it is meant to be played. They have never really been penalized for doing what should be impossible or nearly impossible. Is it possible that after realizing 10 times in a row that rolling out with Chad Pennington and throwing downfield on the run isn't working that the player may be forced to try and stay in the pocket and hit a receiver for a 7 yard gain? Maybe once they realize the improbably isn't working they will learn to play a little smarter. Maybe if you force them to play football, they will play football.

Now you said glitches and tactics, but I'm focusing on tactics as this is what the programming should be trying to stop. True glitches will always come up and I beleive that a true glitch is purely unintentional and just a miss...but a tactic that works over and over when it shouldn't is completely different.

Very good point. And, the idea of having AI going into "judge & jury" mode is fantastic. The use of Goaline D more than a specified # of times in a specified area of the field should trigger J&J AI. There could simply be threshold repetition points, numbers & zones that trigger the AI into being exTREMELY effective against the play or formation in question. Shutting down these practices will unquestionably deter the practioners. If you see someone getting pulled over for speeding every 5 miles...you tap the brakes or find a different route, right?
Like another poster mentioned, QB's that constantly scramble outside the pocket should suffer immediate fatigue when doing so consecutively & as a result loose considerable accuracy when doing so. This would not only be realistic but, would also serve as a penalty to those of questionable football honor.
When DE's are being moved far beyond the outside shoulder of the Tackles, yes, they would still maintain their initial boost and speed due to the fact that they are unabated at the snap but, on the OTHER hand, the Tackle should be awarded the SAME speed boost & an AWR boost to set up his block/pocket (so he's basically in position regardless) because he TOO is not engaged due to this DE being past the threshold. Therefore, no unfair advantage can be attained with this practice.
Players that constantly bring the DB's to the slots or in the box would realistically be victim to getting knocked around or out of a play due to the much heavier/stronger traffic surrounding him.
Lineman would have to be given the knowledge to at least extend or "arm pop" a passerby Defender. I've seen WAAAY to many times when there are 2 linemen standing to either side of the QB or RB when a defender actually brushes against the O-lineman and the lineman would merely rotate around to watch the tackle. No thrust, no reach or even an arm out to partially impede the pursuit. Maybe he can't lock him up but almost all lineman have the ability to at least give a shove that would cause the defender to redirect his path or mis a step.
What about the CHALLENGE thing? What's THAT all about? If I want to challenge a catch...why does the ref challenge the "SPOT OF THE BALL"? When I want to challenge the spot of the ball, why does it end up challenging the catch? When I want to challege whether the player fumbled or not....again spot of the ball. Why is something so simple as being able to SELECT your challenge present?
One more...I mean it. I believe it should be the choice of the PLAYER, whether the QB actually follows or attempts to follow through with the pass or tucks it. It's the PLAYERS decision to risk the batted ball or fumble or broken arm. LOL Too many times, I have seen the Defender closing in but, I've decided to stand my ground and wait for the route to develop and pass at the last possible moment. But, the AI takes over at a particular distance threshold and forces the QB to tuck it and take the sack. That's a greater loss of yardage that I didn't choose! I should be able to independantly decide that I would rather the ball get batted incomplete, float accross the field or wobble to the ground nearby. Just like there is a cover/protect ball button for the RB, there should be one for the QB. If I press that button, then by all means, cover and take the sack. If I DO NOT press the button, I consciously take the responsibility of the risk. The QB continues to make the throw or it gets batted or he gets hit in the middle, I get my bell rung, the ball pops out and the D recovers...maybe. WhatEVER. My fault but, MY CHOICE!

[Kingfish]

Re: The Abomination That is Madden Nation

Bought my first(and last) copy of Madden CE this year since 2004....which was the first one since 1999...

and I bought THIS years ONLY to get Head Coach early.

I haven't even had Madden in my 360...and prolly won't. If I want to PLAY a good game of football, I got 2K5 on my xbox.

[J4son]

Re: The Abomination That is Madden Nation

In the most recent episode dude said he is going to run the ball and use his "rocket catch" to see what he can do.