Madden NFL 10 Blog: Player Ratings - A New Philosophy, A New Era

[youALREADYknow]

Re: Madden NFL 10 Blog: Player Ratings - A New Philosophy, A New Era

^^ This definitely. I'm not so sure about composure and clutch though. If there's anything the last couple of seasons have shown us, the intangibles are more intangible than some would think... (Eli Manning out clutches Tom Brady? Are you kidding?)


But deep, intermediate and short accuracy? That is A MUST if a football game is to be "sim." It's the entire reason Jeff Garcia can go to three pro bowls yet stink it up in Cleveland!


But, with guys like Grossman you might end up with cheesers just picking the Bears and throwing deep every play. How do you combat that? With a CONSISTENCY rating. One of the things that set Joe Montana apart besides his short and intermediate accuracy was his precision. He was like a machine the way his throws were nearly always on time and consistently in the correct location.

Throw in a consistency rating and cheesers can't count on deep accuracy again and again.


But again, a short, deep and intermediate accuracy rating would add SO much variety to the QB position in Madden.

I disagree about the short/intermediate/deep accuracy ratings... we have THP and THA and that means EA/Tiburon can break those two ratings down into ranges that define whether a QB can throw intermediate or deep accurately.

I agree 100% though that consistency needs to be a rating not only for QB's, but for all positions. It's one of the main things missing from the game right now. Every rating is about skill or athleticism, but does nothing to define how consistent a player is from play to play. Passing accuracy isn't the only thing that goes into a QB's completion percentage.

[glitchditcher]

Re: Madden NFL 10 Blog: Player Ratings - A New Philosophy, A New Era

BUT, how would a consistency rating work in single online games ? I can see throughout a season maybe his rating would randomly get a significant drop for some games, but how would it work in a single game ? Would his rating fluctuate from play-to-play ?

That's where I figured a composure rating would come into play. If a cheezer just wants to throw bombs all day, they're likely going to see more pressure from all of the deep passing, which in return would effect Grossman's rating seeing as how he would have a low composure rating.

[kcarr]

Re: Madden NFL 10 Blog: Player Ratings - A New Philosophy, A New Era

I disagree about the short/intermediate/deep accuracy ratings... we have THP and THA and that means EA/Tiburon can break those two ratings down into ranges that define whether a QB can throw intermediate or deep accurately.

I agree 100% though that consistency needs to be a rating not only for QB's, but for all positions. It's one of the main things missing from the game right now. Every rating is about skill or athleticism, but does nothing to define how consistent a player is from play to play. Passing accuracy isn't the only thing that goes into a QB's completion percentage.

Now I will agree that with accuracy and power you could create formulas to somewhat accurately show short/intermediate/deep throwing ability but this really leaves out a few guys who don't fit that common mold.

Drew Brees is a great example of this. He doesn't have the strongest arm, I would call it above average. If the scale is like it is now spread from 80 to 99 I would cal it a 91 or 92, if it is spread out like I think it should be from 30 to 99 I would cal it around a 73 or 74, I think madden's scale will be somewhere between the 2. His accuracy on the other hand is great.

Now take a guy like matt cassel. After this year he will also have a very high accuracy score with probably an arm strength similar to that of drew's. Maybe a little less but not much.

Now look at carson palmer because he was a good example that was mentioned. He has great arm strength and I don't really know where to put his accuracy due to him throwing a rather accurate deep ball while not so much on shorter passes. Due to this he will probably have an above average but not great accuracy.

Now looking at these 3 there are 3 ways madden could figure the accuracies for the QBs deep balls. They could take an even ammount of accuracy and strength, which would but carson at the highest accuracy on deep passes followed by drew and then matt. They could weight it heavier towards accuracy and make power just cover the distance the guy can throw which would make it drew and then matt and then carson. Or they could weight it heavier toward power which would go back to the first order.

Any way you cut it though the only one of these solutions where drew would throw a great deep ball matt would also throw a very good deep ball. Matt however does not throw that great of a deep ball consistanly missing randy moss, one of the better recievers in the league. Drew on the other hand probable throws the most catchable deep ball in the NFL as shown by his completion percentage on passes thrown at least 30 yards down the field which last I heard this last season was like over twice the NFL average and that was with his best reciever and tight end and one of the better recieving backs in the NFL out for much of the season throwing to recievers who many people probably hadn't heard of before this year.

[Blkcanes]

Re: Madden NFL 10 Blog: Player Ratings - A New Philosophy, A New Era

I just want to ask a simple question to the people that have been following this thread or whom ever is working on the ratings. If I play the Cpu and their right end has a better overall than my rookie left tackle. Ex his Pass rushing skills is higher than my LT pass blocking skills, I would like to know if my LT is going to have a hard time and am I going to be force to help him out by putting a tight end to help block that DE? Can somebody answer this for me. Please.

[youALREADYknow]

Re: Madden NFL 10 Blog: Player Ratings - A New Philosophy, A New Era

Now looking at these 3 there are 3 ways madden could figure the accuracies for the QBs deep balls. They could take an even ammount of accuracy and strength, which would but carson at the highest accuracy on deep passes followed by drew and then matt. They could weight it heavier towards accuracy and make power just cover the distance the guy can throw which would make it drew and then matt and then carson. Or they could weight it heavier toward power which would go back to the first order

A VERY simplified version would be to find a player's maximum throwing power and create an accuracy range from there based on their effort to reach the target:

Say I had a QB with a THP of 75 and we assume that means his longest throw would be 40 yards in the air. If his THA is 99, then here's somewhat of what I'd expect.

0-10 yds: 97-100% Accurate
10-15 yds: 92-97% Accurate
15-20 yds: 80-92% Accurate
20-30 yds: 65-80% Accurate
30-40 yds: 50-65% Accurate
40+ yds: Not Accurate, Throw Short

Say I had a QB with a THP of 99 with a long throw of 60 yards in the air, but a THA of 75 indicating he's not really an accurate passer.

0-10 yds: 87-90% Accurate
10-15 yds: 84-87% Accurate
15-20 yds: 80-84% Accurate
20-30 yds: 75-80% Accurate
30-40 yds: 70-75% Accurate
40-50 yds: 60-70% Accurate
50-60 yds: 45-60% Accurate
60+ yds: Not Accurate, Throw Short

Last example is a QB with THP of 90 and THA of 90 and we'll say his long throw is about 52 yards in the air.

0-10 yds: 93-95% Accurate
10-15 yds: 90-93% Accurate
15-20 yds: 87-90% Accurate
20-30 yds: 80-87% Accurate
30-40 yds: 65-80% Accurate
40-50 yds: 50-65% Accurate
50-52 yds: 45-50% Accurate
52+ yds: Not Accurate, Throw Short

Obviously this is a very simple representation, but the general point I'm making is that there can be differences in the QB's accuracy using just two ratings. When I say that a QB is a certain percent accurate that means how close the ball is to the intended target once thrown, not how often the QB is accurate. A 90% accurate pass is one that a WR can easily adjust to and catch. A 50% accurate pass is one that likely requires a lot of effort from the WR to catch (led too far, thrown behind for a jump ball, or thrown out of bounds) and will likely not be caught 50% of the time.

Based on the made up numbers above (again, this is a very simple example not my suggestion to EA for programming) here are the best QB's at short, intermediate, and deep:

Short (0-10): 75THP/99THA, 99-100%
Intermediate (10-20): 90THP/90THA, 87-93%
Deep (20-40): 90THP/90THA, 65-87%
Very Deep (40-60): 99THP/75THA, 45-70%

If EA could combine accuracy based on a QB's throwing effort with throwing consistency, then we would have a much more dynamic passing experience.

[kcarr]

Re: Madden NFL 10 Blog: Player Ratings - A New Philosophy, A New Era

Yes, but that does not take in to consideration QBs who maintain that accuracy over most of their throwing distance. I would say that with the current ratings it is probably as good as madden could hope for but more ratings will, as long as they are properly implemented and properly defined to relate directly to an ability that players have and in turn show that ability coming through in gameplay, give more ability to properly express each player's strengths and weaknesses giving more diversity and more accuracy to the representation of the game of football.

[kcarr]

Re: Madden NFL 10 Blog: Player Ratings - A New Philosophy, A New Era

I just want to ask a simple question to the people that have been following this thread or whom ever is working on the ratings. If I play the Cpu and their right end has a better overall than my rookie left tackle. Ex his Pass rushing skills is higher than my LT pass blocking skills, I would like to know if my LT is going to have a hard time and am I going to be force to help him out by putting a tight end to help block that DE? Can somebody answer this for me. Please.

With the initial ratings set I haven't really seen this but I think that could be partially due to the ratings being inflated for everyone so you really don't have many glaring weaknesses. With the ratings that EA gives us pretty much every player is above average or better in most areas that apply to their position. Most QBs have at least 80 on all throwing skills, linemen with below 75 on any of the 7 blocking skills seem rare, etc. As I have spread the ratings out I have really noticed a difference. Playing with the bears who don't have a highly rated LT jared allen has torn me apart unless I shift the line to the left or leave backs in to block. Shifting the line allowed their RE to make far more than his fair share of sacks.

Playing with the saints for instance, Jamal Brown had much better success slowing Allen down 1 on 1 so I was able to leave my line more balanced.

Now if only they would add in more animations to help express some of this, better teamwork from the linemen, maybe more of a pocket forming rather than a series of one on one battles, and maybe some ability to set up a strategy along the lines of how often you want certain players to try to help out others posibly leaving their area of the pocket and which guys they should help. If they could add that it would be great

[youALREADYknow]

Re: Madden NFL 10 Blog: Player Ratings - A New Philosophy, A New Era

Yes, but that does not take in to consideration QBs who maintain that accuracy over most of their throwing distance.

There isn't a QB alive who maintains similar accuracy at their max throwing effort. Accuracy goes down at some rate as more effort is used. It's very similar to baseball pitchers who usually throw their fastballs with less than 100% effort to spot the corners, but then have less accuracy in the strike zone when they try to blow hitters away.

What bothers me about EA football game passing is that I'll see the same accuracy at 10 yards that I see at 40 yards. Leading a WR and hitting him directly in stride nearly every time with little change in the ball's location. If you run a play in Practice mode, you could throw the same 30 yard pass with the same timing and 9 out of 10 times it ends up in the same spot.

[kcarr]

Re: Madden NFL 10 Blog: Player Ratings - A New Philosophy, A New Era

There isn't a QB alive who maintains similar accuracy at their max throwing effort. Accuracy goes down at some rate as more effort is used. It's very similar to baseball pitchers who usually throw their fastballs with less than 100% effort to spot the corners, but then have less accuracy in the strike zone when they try to blow hitters away.

While no quarterback maintains their accuracy 100% there are some who maintain that accuracy better than others

[94niners]

Re: Madden NFL 10 Blog: Player Ratings - A New Philosophy, A New Era

Regardless, except for the very rare Brees's and such, the deep balls certainly should be less accurate than the shorter ones. But there is another problem: You have guys that don't have the strongest arm, yet still have more accurate deep balls. In fact, I remember when Steve Young was playing he KILLED the rest of the league in QB rating for longer than 20 yard passes, but he certainly didn't have the strongest arm (not saying he had a weak arm, but he was no Brett Favre). But he put the ball exactly in the right spot more than anyone on deep passes. Currently it is the same situation with Brees. Not the strongest arm, but he has more touch and accuracy and consistency on his deep ball than anyone.



Anyway, I really think a consistency rating would be a vast improvement. That way you could account for guys like Chad Pennington dominated so many teams with such a relatively weak arm.

[kcarr]

Re: Madden NFL 10 Blog: Player Ratings - A New Philosophy, A New Era

Regardless, except for the very rare Brees's and such, the deep balls certainly should be less accurate than the shorter ones. But there is another problem: You have guys that don't have the strongest arm, yet still have more accurate deep balls. In fact, I remember when Steve Young was playing he KILLED the rest of the league in QB rating for longer than 20 yard passes, but he certainly didn't have the strongest arm (not saying he had a weak arm, but he was no Brett Favre). But he put the ball exactly in the right spot more than anyone on deep passes. Currently it is the same situation with Brees. Not the strongest arm, but he has more touch and accuracy and consistency on his deep ball than anyone.



Anyway, I really think a consistency rating would be a vast improvement. That way you could account for guys like Chad Pennington dominated so many teams with such a relatively weak arm.

Yes, not having separate ratings for accuracy at different depths it is basically saying that if a 2 guys can throw the ball the same distance when throwing as hard as they can and they are equally accurate at 10 yards they will also be equally accurate at 40 yards. The things are not really even that closely related in real life so to make them directly related in the game is going to leave room for problems. Personally I think there should be way more ratings in madden, I could see at least a dozen or so ratings just for accuracy but I realize this would overwhelm most people. That is why I think all ratings should be hidden other than during player editing and creation

[goratory666]

Re: Madden NFL 10 Blog: Player Ratings - A New Philosophy, A New Era

well all the ratings be edtible??? like if i wanted to put zach thomas on 99 speed. i could?

[Glorious Arc]

Re: Madden NFL 10 Blog: Player Ratings - A New Philosophy, A New Era

Carson Palmer is best example for a more accurate passer on deep routes then short routes. throw distance and throw speed(zip on the ball) HUGE stat that i dont understand why it isnt added. QBs like Tom brady get 99 throw power because they have great throw speed and can throw a 60 yard bomb. in madden he should have great(95-99) throw speed and above average(88-92) throw distance. honestly do yall think he can out-throw jermarcus russel(98 throw power i think) and his 80 something yard bomb that he did during his workouts?

[deadlyCane]

Re: Madden NFL 10 Blog: Player Ratings - A New Philosophy, A New Era

Admittedly, I haven't read the whole thread. But I'm afraid of how this will be implemented in the game. It seems like only a couple ratings in Madden and NCAA actually have an effect in the game. The speed rating has the most pronounced effect. Spreading out the ratings seems to me like it will only give the fast guys an even bigger advantage. This advantage would be minimized if the other ratings actually mattered. Now a fast scrub is going to be a superstar.

This spreading of the ratings seems to me like a band aid solution to the real problem. The solution to me would be to actually code the game so that the other ratings have a more pronounced effect. If you are one of those that don't agree with me, check out this Apexisfree video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBltC...eature=related

[kcarr]

Re: Madden NFL 10 Blog: Player Ratings - A New Philosophy, A New Era

Admittedly, I haven't read the whole thread. But I'm afraid of how this will be implemented in the game. It seems like only a couple ratings in Madden and NCAA actually have an effect in the game. The speed rating has the most pronounced effect. Spreading out the ratings seems to me like it will only give the fast guys an even bigger advantage. This advantage would be minimized if the other ratings actually mattered. Now a fast scrub is going to be a superstar.

This spreading of the ratings seems to me like a band aid solution to the real problem. The solution to me would be to actually code the game so that the other ratings have a more pronounced effect. If you are one of those that don't agree with me, check out this Apexisfree video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBltC...eature=related

Yes, there are some like agility, acceleration, the blocking footwork and strength ratings, strength, etc that really need to be programmed in to actually have an effect. The spreading of the ratings does from my tests help some with some of the ratings like the passing ratings for instance.

The spreading the ratings is a good idea and one that I really support. I don't think it will fix most of the problems initially but it really adds to the potential with some proper programming to make the game better.

You have to take this as what it is. A design idea that has some positive aspects with minimal potential for negative aspects that can be easily implemented and is small enough in nature that madden is mentioning it as one of their mini features months before the game comes out