Looks like the RPI is now dead.

[fsquid]

Last In - Last Out:
The following looks at the last at large teams that were given births.

62 Arizona
59 Boston College
55 Maryland
45 Wisconsin
44 Michigan
43 Minnesota
41 Texas
39 Cal
38 USC
37 LSU
36 Texas A&M
35 Marquette
33 UCLA
32 Arizona State
30 BYU
29 Dayton

You read correctly. The last 14 (FOURTEEN) at large bids went to BCS schools. To add insult to injury; of those 14 schools, 13 got higher seeds than #29 Dayton. Only Arizona with a #12 seed got a lower seed than #11 Dayton.

Last Out:
Here is a look at schools with the highest RPI's that were left out of the tournament.

34 San Diego State
40 Creighton
46 UAB
47 St. Mary's
48 Illinois State
49 Niagara
51 George Mason
52 Florida
53 Tulsa

Out of the last 7 schools left out an at large bid; all were from Non BCS schools. Only Florida prevented it from being a clean sweep.

Seed Value:
Here is the list of Non BCS and BCS teams and how they were seeded according to the value of their RPI

NON BCS
19 Siena - #9 seed (-4)
24 Utah State - 11 (-4)
23 Butler - 9 (-3)
29 Dayton - 11 (-3)
31 Temple - 11 (-3)
9 Utah - 5 (-2)
43 Western Kentucky - 12 (-1)
54 Cleveland State - 13 (-1)

7 Memphis 2 (0)
30 BYU 8 (0)

26 Gonzaga - #4 seed, (+3)
12 Northern Iowa - 12 (+3)
50 VCU - 11 (+2)
17 Xavier - 4 (+1)

BCS
18 UT - 9 (-4) hahahaha
20 Oklahoma State - 8 (-3)
27 Ohio State - 8 (-1)
14 Florida State - 5 (-1)
2 Duke - 2 (-1)

14 teams (0)

59 Boston College - 7 (+8)
55 Maryland - 10 (+5)
41 Texas - 7 (+4)
62 Arizona - 12 (+4)
37 LSU - 8 (+3)
35 Marquette - 6 (+3)
32 Arizona State - 6 (+2)
32 UCLA - 6 (+2)
39 Cal - 7 (+2)
25 Purdue - 5 (+2)
44 Michigan - 10 (+1)
22 Illinois - 5 (+1)
42 Minnesota - 10 (+1)
13 Villanova - 13 (+1)
8 UConn - 8 (+1)

Out of 34 at large teams from a BCS conference; 29 were seeded at or over the value of their RPI. Out of those 5 that weren't, only 2 were seeded more than 1 line below their value. That means that out of 34 BCS teams, only 2 were seeded more than 1 below their value. Out of 14 at large teams from Non BCS conferences; 6 were seeded at or over their value. Only 3 out of the 14 teams were seeded more than 1 line over their value.

The only conclusion is that the the selection committee; regardless of their makeup has gone out of their way to screw the non BCS schools. The only other explanation, is that they don't understand the RPI and how it works and why the data is what it is. It is more than sad, it is criminal. Since Non BCS teams also get screwed with their seedings; the end result is that a very small percentage of them get a fair shake even when they are included in the field.

[J0nnD0ugh]

Re: Looks like the RPI is now dead.

Give me one school from a non-bcs school that was screwed & prove their case. Show me the bcs school that was put in that shouldn't have been. I'm tired of the whining by the people championing the mid-majors this year. You say someone got screwed, someone got favored? Prove it.

[Chip Douglass]

Re: Looks like the RPI is now dead.

Give me one school from a non-bcs school that was screwed & prove their case. Show me the bcs school that was put in that shouldn't have been. I'm tired of the whining by the people championing the mid-majors this year. You say someone got screwed, someone got favored? Prove it.

Ditto.

The teams that were left out this year have no one to blame but themselves.

Arizona scheduled like an NCAA Tournament team and beat Kansas, Washington, UCLA, and Gonzaga. St. Mary's scheduled like an NIT team...and now they're one.

I have no problems with the positions of both.

[J0nnD0ugh]

Re: Looks like the RPI is now dead.

Ditto.

The teams that were left out this year have no one to blame but themselves.

Arizona scheduled like an NCAA Tournament team and beat Kansas, Washington, UCLA, and Gonzaga. St. Mary's scheduled like an NIT team...and now they're one.

I have no problems with the positions of both.

And the thing is, the rpi is phony. As a true measure of a team's worth. People look @ the ranking & think that says it all. If people took time to look at the schedules & results, they'll find the rpi is not all its cracked up to be.

For instance, people keep bringing up St. Mary's as more worthy than Arizona. Arizona beat Gonzaga. St.Mary's lost to them 3 times. Arizona won 6 games vs the top 50. The Gaels had 5 games total vs the top 50. 21 of the Gaels 24 wins were vs teams ranked 120 or worse.

Does anyone think, w/that information, St.Mary's is 15 spots better than Arizona? You have to see the whole picture. No mathematical formula can replace completely good old human judgement. It is an aid, a tool, a guage. Not a judge.

[Cebby]

Re: Looks like the RPI is now dead.

The RPI has been dead.

The committee acknowledged this. That's why they don't use it anymore.

The RPI's home/away system and lack of value for wins blow.

If you're going to use computers, you need to do what the BCS does and use an average ranking of a series of computers in order to minimize rankings that heavily benefit one team. Another thing to take from the BCS is the margins of the rankings. The margin between #47 Saint Mary's and #62 Arizona is about the same as the margin between #2 Duke and #3 UNC, but I don't see anyone up in arms over that choice.

[Sportsforever]

Re: Looks like the RPI is now dead.

One team that does surprise me is Texas...for some reason I didn't think they'd be in, let alone a 7 seed. Even with that, I'm with you guys...I don't see a lot of whining that can be done this year by teams left out. Btw, why is there such a push for mid-majors anyway?

[larrygiterdone]

Re: Looks like the RPI is now dead.

the RPI has always been useless, it is not an objective measure at all

[WazzuRC]

Re: Looks like the RPI is now dead.

For instance, people keep bringing up St. Mary's as more worthy than Arizona. Arizona beat Gonzaga. St.Mary's lost to them 3 times. Arizona won 6 games vs the top 50. The Gaels had 5 games total vs the top 50. 21 of the Gaels 24 wins were vs teams ranked 120 or worse.

This is true. However I hate when people say "they should schedule more tough teams OOC." It's never that easy. St. Mary's can't just call up Duke and ask to play them next Saturday. It doesn't work that way. It's tough for good mid-majors to schedule a lot of quality opponents outside of conference because the bigger schools make less money and are afraid to lose. Having a bad loss to Arizona isn't the same as having a bad loss to St. Mary's or San Diego St. And to anyone that says Gonzaga is a mid-major school, they aren't. They may play in a smaller conference, but they have the resources, recruits, and money to play in any of the larger conferences.

I think St. Mary's should have been in over Arizona...and this is coming from a huge Pac-10 guy. 'Zona got really hot midseason, but faltered down the stretch losing in the first round of the conference tournament. They had two quality in conference wins, UCLA and UW...and this is coming in a down year for the Pac-10. Both games were at home. They won 2 away games during conference play against the #8 and #10 in conference. They lost their last 5 of 6, including a first round exit in the conference tournament. They're inconsistent.

St. Mary's lost two games all season with their best player on the floor. No doubt in my mind they would have beat Gonzaga both times in conference play with a healthy Mills. They were dominating in the first game until Mills went down and lost by 2 in the 2nd game without Mills the entire game. They also finished the season winning 7 of 8 and getting to the finals of their tournament.

Also, to the OP USC isn't an at-large.

[bball_1523]

Re: Looks like the RPI is now dead.

I think something needs to be done with the scheduling. I agree that some of these bubble teams that didn't make didn't have a tough schedule, but like WazzuRC said, it could be because these Big 6 schools don't want to play the "mid-majors". It's sad and I think something fair needs to happen and I'm not sure what.

[BigDofBA]

Re: Looks like the RPI is now dead.

I can't believe Arizona got in over some of those teams.

[HungryBologna]

Re: Looks like the RPI is now dead.

Its because of their top 50 rpi record.

[baracus16]

Re: Looks like the RPI is now dead.

The NCAA could settle the mid major/bcs argument using the play-in games.

My idea:
Expand the field from 65 teams to 71. Each region gets a play-in game.

Instead of putting the two worst conference champs in the play-in, pair up mid-major vs. bcs conference teams in the play-in games.

Play them all in Dayton on Tuesday (more basketball for us )

Yes, this may make bubble arguments more heated, but it's a thought.

[J0nnD0ugh]

Re: Looks like the RPI is now dead.

This is true. However I hate when people say "they should schedule more tough teams OOC." It's never that easy. St. Mary's can't just call up Duke and ask to play them next Saturday. It doesn't work that way. It's tough for good mid-majors to schedule a lot of quality opponents outside of conference because the bigger schools make less money and are afraid to lose. Having a bad loss to Arizona isn't the same as having a bad loss to St. Mary's or San Diego St. And to anyone that says Gonzaga is a mid-major school, they aren't. They may play in a smaller conference, but they have the resources, recruits, and money to play in any of the larger conferences.

Sorry. But the only thing I can say to this is "bull". Siena knew last year they had a great team for '09. So they scheduled tough for this year. Tennessee, Pitt, OK St, Kansas. They went & played tough teams. They didn't leave it to chance. Clev St went to Syracuse, WV & Wash. Davidson added WV, Okla, & Purdue.

Mid-majors should have no problems adding tougher games even between seasons. Because of the rpi, big programs are looking for schools likely to have rpi's below 100 to boost their own profile.

I've said it before, you want to be a big boy, schedule like a big boy. Memphis, Gonzaga, Xavier make sure they boost their schedules by making a tough OOC. They saw the writing on the wall. Now, they have no problem getting teams to come into their building. They aren't even considered mid-majors anymore. They went & got respect for their program.

I think St. Mary's should have been in over Arizona...and this is coming from a huge Pac-10 guy. 'Zona got really hot midseason, but faltered down the stretch losing in the first round of the conference tournament. They had two quality in conference wins, UCLA and UW...and this is coming in a down year for the Pac-10. Both games were at home. They won 2 away games during conference play against the #8 and #10 in conference. They lost their last 5 of 6, including a first round exit in the conference tournament. They're inconsistent.

St. Mary's lost two games all season with their best player on the floor. No doubt in my mind they would have beat Gonzaga both times in conference play with a healthy Mills. They were dominating in the first game until Mills went down and lost by 2 in the 2nd game without Mills the entire game. They also finished the season winning 7 of 8 and getting to the finals of their tournament.

What a team does @ the end, is a silly criteria. Are we evaluating the season, or a third of it? I think its unfair when commentators, committee members & fans say "these guys are hotter", as if that trumps all. We go from "they beat no one OOC" for this school to leave them out, then say "they won 10 of their last 11 conference games" to get another school in.

You can't pick & choose. You have to evalute the whole year. And anything that takes away from wins & who the wins were against is doing a disservice to the process.

Injuries shouldn't be factored in unless its a tiebreaker. A loss is a loss.

All bubble teams are inconsistent. Or else, they wouldn't be on the bubble.

Once more, Arizona won more top 50 games than St. Mary's played. 3 of the 5 were to one team & the other was from Bracket Busters. I give them a pass on Oregon cause no one thought they would be that horrible. Otherwise, their program should have scheduled better.

[larrygiterdone]

Re: Looks like the RPI is now dead.

Sorry. But the only thing I can say to this is "bull". Siena knew last year they had a great team for '09. So they scheduled tough for this year. Tennessee, Pitt, OK St, Kansas. They went & played tough teams. They didn't leave it to chance. Clev St went to Syracuse, WV & Wash. Davidson added WV, Okla, & Purdue.

Mid-majors should have no problems adding tougher games even between seasons. Because of the rpi, big programs are looking for schools likely to have rpi's below 100 to boost their own profile.

I've said it before, you want to be a big boy, schedule like a big boy. Memphis, Gonzaga, Xavier make sure they boost their schedules by making a tough OOC. They saw the writing on the wall. Now, they have no problem getting teams to come into their building. They aren't even considered mid-majors anymore. They went & got respect for their program.


What a team does @ the end, is a silly criteria. Are we evaluating the season, or a third of it? I think its unfair when commentators, committee members & fans say "these guys are hotter", as if that trumps all. We go from "they beat no one OOC" for this school to leave them out, then say "they won 10 of their last 11 conference games" to get another school in.

You can't pick & choose. You have to evalute the whole year. And anything that takes away from wins & who the wins were against is doing a disservice to the process.

Injuries shouldn't be factored in unless its a tiebreaker. A loss is a loss.

All bubble teams are inconsistent. Or else, they wouldn't be on the bubble.

Once more, Arizona won more top 50 games than St. Mary's played. 3 of the 5 were to one team & the other was from Bracket Busters. I give them a pass on Oregon cause no one thought they would be that horrible. Otherwise, their program should have scheduled better.

Siena didnt beat any of those teams, there best win of the year was over the 70th best team in the country Niagara

at least St. Marys beat San Diego State and Utah State

[J0nnD0ugh]

Re: Looks like the RPI is now dead.

Siena didnt beat any of those teams, there best win of the year was over the 70th best team in the country Niagara

at least St. Marys beat San Diego State and Utah State

The point is, they played tough teams. Acknowledged tough teams. St.Mary's didn't schedule the Aztecs & Aggies to get national attention or a marquee win. If UNC's only marquee wins were SD St & Ut St, would anyone say they played a tough schedule?