Madden NFL 10 Video: Pro-TAK Animation System

[TheWatcher]

Re: EA's Pro Tak needs ump I know its WIP....

They haven't even begun their media blitz on what this game [Backbreaker] offers. You have to be kidding me if you say these player models are unrealistic and the tackles are "arcadish."

I didn't say anything about the player models, but since you mentioned it... yep, they are unrealistic. Have you ever seen football equipment like what they're wearing?

Supposedly the game theme is futuristic. I don't buy that. I think they just took the models they had from their demonstrations and decided to just leave them as-is, and when people questioned it they had to come up with an explanation. It might actually wind up being the theme, but I think it's more patchwork than initial intent.

Show me some Madden animations or plays that are more true-to-life; you have yet to do this.

I've never said Madden's animations are the beacon of realism, but I could certainly show you tons of wrap tackles even in "sizzle" videos. Wraps are truER-to-life, crash derby is not.

[polamalu82]

Re: EA's Pro Tak needs ump I know its WIP....

But with Pro-Tak though, we've seen other things besides gangs as the tech extends to other things. Also, there are some comments I've read where I'm convinced some people really do think the majority of the tackles in Madden 10 will be gangs, lol, but that makes less sense than what could be assumed with BB, because with Madden we've seen video of other tackles besides gangs. All we've seen are aggressive tackles in BB.

As for selling the sizzle... I think it depends on what's to be considered sizzle. When 2K was pushing maximum tackle they showed lots of wrap-ups. It looked great and they knew who they were targeting with it. Sim players of that franchise wanted that badly. If BB is wishing to do the same, then they've chosen a strange way of doing it, lol.

The way I look at it all BB advertising is a moot point until E3. At E3 we should finally be able to paint a good picture as to what this game offers. Until then, calling it over the top is just speculation, and I know that's 99% of what we do around here.lol

[TheWatcher]

Re: EA's Pro Tak needs ump I know its WIP....

I have followed the game myself, watched the vids (though it's been awhile), and read the BB forums here and there. I don't agree with this view as it relates to the tackles.

You're not going to find much opposition on the BB forums because most of those people have already proclaimed BB as the savior of football video games.

I read things from all over the place, blogs, forums, etc. I hear a lot people say the tackles look cool, but I hear a lot of "wow those hits are vicious" and there's an obvious reason for why that comment comes up a lot even if they're not complaining...

No weight? You really lost me there. We must be watching different videos. The only time you see major movement is when the player is airborne, and then you see movement as expected. As for the rest, you see actual momentum in play as the player falls down or continues their run.

Nope, we're watching the same videos...

It would be redundant to go over each hit, because the outcome looks the same. The offensive player is hit in a way that he looks powerless as if his weight doesn't matter. How often do you see NFL runningbacks get blown up like that during the course of a game? Once, if that? And it's often because they weren't expecting it and so they didn't brace properly to get their weight into the bracing. For goodness sake, the BB player is getting his bell rung like every time out, lol. He shoud be dead.

The movement isn't all that much different from APF2K8, in fact, I think I saw several player positionings that looked very reminscent of APF2K8. There's an article somewhere that someone wrote up comapring AFP2K8 and backbreaker. I'll have to find it. The comparison will probably shock you.

I've read some things like that and all it sounds like to me are people hoping for something that isn't real. I read one where a guy tried to prove that NM was in APF 2K8, lol. It ran for a while but it got dissected. It ended sadly, lol. I still chuckle about it from time to time.

When I think of no weight / momentum, then the first football game that comes to mind (next gen) is Madden.

You're talking about controls. I'm talking about the way the offensive player is getting brutalized on every hit as if he's unable to put weight into bracing himself.

[Valdarez]

Re: EA's Pro Tak needs ump I know its WIP....

Nope, we're watching the same videos...

It would be redundant to go over each hit, because the outcome looks the same. The offensive player is hit in a way that he looks powerless as if his weight doesn't matter.

Actually I think we should go over each hit, because your statement is obscenely incorrect. The outcome look the same? As if his weight doesn't matter? That's the entire purpose of Euphoria. Are you sure your not watching tackling in Madden by mistake? In the IGN video I posted, the offensive player falls forward based on real world physics.

At :30 he gets hit and continues forward until hit again
At :32 again, he falls forward
At :37 seconds he falls forward (clearly)

<embed src='http://videomedia.ign.com/ev/ev.swf' flashvars='object_ID=958004&downloadURL=http://xbox360movies.ign.com/xbox360/video/article/866/866661/BB_TackleAlley_041508_flvlowwide.flv&allownetworki ng="all%"' type='application/x-shockwave-flash' width='433' height='360'></embed><div style='width:433;'><a href='http://xbox360.ign.com/objects/958/958004.html'>Backbreaker at IGN.com</a></div>

The only time he's not falling forward is when there is a clear / solid hit to the midsection, at which point both players stop, but movement is still a little forward, as would be expected.

How often do you see NFL runningbacks get blown up like that during the course of a game?

Did you even watch the entire video? Your comments seem to be based off just a couple of the tackles. As far as the NFL goes, I would wager it looks a lot more violent the closer you are to the action. I'm sure some of the guys who padded up can attest to that.

Out of curiosity, do you honestly think Madden '09 accurately represeted the type of hitting/tackling you see on Sunday?

You're talking about controls. I'm talking about the way the offensive player is getting brutalized on every hit as if he's unable to put weight into bracing himself.

The lack of momentum in Madden has nothing to do with controls. It has do with how players move, pick up speed, change direction, finish out runs, and with relation to this thread - make tackles. There's absolutely no feel of momentum in Madden. If Madden is all you have played, then I can understand why you perceive there to be such a disparity between Madden and the videos we have on backbreaker, because they are literally night and day.

[Pandemonium00]

Re: EA's Pro Tak needs ump I know its WIP....

Don't compare with such an old video. It's an "alpha build," as that seems to be the excuse thrown around here about the Pro-Tak videos. Why not with this?

[roadman]

Re: EA's Pro Tak needs ump I know its WIP....

Actually I think we should go over each hit, because your statement is obscenely incorrect. The outcome look the same? As if his weight doesn't matter? That's the entire purpose of Euphoria. Are you sure your not watching tackling in Madden by mistake? In the IGN video I posted, the offensive player falls forward based on real world physics.

At :30 he gets hit and continues forward until hit again
At :32 again, he falls forward
At :37 seconds he falls forward (clearly)

<embed src='http://videomedia.ign.com/ev/ev.swf' flashvars='object_ID=958004&downloadURL=http://xbox360movies.ign.com/xbox360/video/article/866/866661/BB_TackleAlley_041508_flvlowwide.flv&allownetworki ng="all%"' type='application/x-shockwave-flash' width='433' height='360'></embed><div style='width:433;'><a href='http://xbox360.ign.com/objects/958/958004.html'>Backbreaker at IGN.com</a></div>

The only time he's not falling forward is when there is a clear / solid hit to the midsection, at which point both players stop, but movement is still a little forward, as would be expected.

Did you even watch the entire video? Your comments seem to be based off just a couple of the tackles. As far as the NFL goes, I would wager it looks a lot more violent the closer you are to the action. I'm sure some of the guys who padded up can attest to that.

Out of curiosity, do you honestly think Madden '09 accurately represeted the type of hitting/tackling you see on Sunday?

The lack of momentum in Madden has nothing to do with controls. It has do with how players move, pick up speed, change direction, finish out runs, and with relation to this thread - make tackles. There's absolutely no feel of momentum in Madden. If Madden is all you have played, then I can understand why you perceive there to be such a disparity between Madden and the videos we have on backbreaker, because they are literally night and day.

Valderez, just an FYI on who you are dealing with here. People take so many assumptions on the net.

The Watcher is avid 2k fan. He was one of the people that were chosen by Ian for CD. Ian selected a great person with constructive criticism of past Maddens.

The Watcher brought a game of 2k5 with him and announced to everyone that if Madden 10 wasn't as good as 2k5, he would start playing 2k5. 2k5 never came out of the case.

The Watcher can verify that with me when he returns, but that was the story that was told on CD.

The Watcher , to my knowledge, is not a fan of past Maddens.

Just an FYI.

[TDogg09]

Re: EA's Pro Tak needs ump I know its WIP....

All I know is both games look pretty awesome in their own right. Both have good qualities, both have bad. The fact is they're different and they're not going for the same thing-Madden is going for realism and sim, Backbreaker is going for more arcade (or so I read in one of the previews). We won't be able to make a comparison everyone is satisfied with until we see substantially more of each game.

[kmart2180]

Re: EA's Pro Tak needs ump I know its WIP....

My goodness that BB game looks more arcadey than Blitz....IMO. I hope for there sake they tone down the blow up hits. How about a normal wrap up tackle every once in a while.

If this is football being played after 10 red bull's and a pound of sugar, atleast show us the diesel let down you feel after the caffeine/sugar rush. Theres gotta be a slow point somewhere in the game.

[Valdarez]

Re: EA's Pro Tak needs ump I know its WIP....

Gotcha, I was just trying to understand where he was coming from, because his statements don't appear to line up with the video evidence, at which point I figured it was perception more than anything else. It's been so long since I played 2K5 that I honestly don't remember how well momentum was represented in the game. I do know from reading the forums that momentum was a big addition to APF2K8 though. Right now, I'm kind of viewing each game as a stepping stone from a realistic momentum / physics standpoint which greatly affects the 'ump' of the game.

BackBreaker > APF2K8 > Madden < APF2K8 < BackBreaker

[Valdarez]

Re: EA's Pro Tak needs ump I know its WIP....

All I know is both games look pretty awesome in their own right. Both have good qualities, both have bad. The fact is they're different and they're not going for the same thing-Madden is going for realism and sim

It's so funny to see that statement because that hasn't been Madden's goal in a long time. Funny, but good.

Backbreaker is going for more arcade (or so I read in one of the previews).

Really? Can you provide a link to the story please? If that's honestly the case, then we shouldn't have any expectations of a realistic / simulation experience.

[hmoob]

Re: EA's Pro Tak needs ump I know its WIP....

I didn't say anything about the player models, but since you mentioned it... yep, they are unrealistic. Have you ever seen football equipment like what they're wearing?

Supposedly the game theme is futuristic. I don't buy that. I think they just took the models they had from their demonstrations and decided to just leave them as-is, and when people questioned it they had to come up with an explanation. It might actually wind up being the theme, but I think it's more patchwork than initial intent.



I've never said Madden's animations are the beacon of realism, but I could certainly show you tons of wrap tackles even in "sizzle" videos. Wraps are truER-to-life, crash derby is not.

TheWatcher, you claim to be objective but you've said nothing but bad things about BB when you (and all of us) have basically seen nothing about the game. You should be neutral towards them. Yet, you ride on the p*nis of a game that has failed you 4 years in a row.

I smell fanboy.

Edit: Lol, I read the post again and realized you were just spewing a bunch of BS based on things you made up in that head of yours. Unbelievable.

[TDogg09]

Re: EA's Pro Tak needs ump I know its WIP....

Really? Can you provide a link to the story please? If that's honestly the case, then we shouldn't have any expectations of a realistic / simulation experience.

http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/901/901664p1.html

4th paragraph down, right under the picture.

Rather than gunning for the simulation crown that Madden currently holds, NaturalMotion is going for arcade gameplay that has the most realistic motion ever seen in a videogame.

[hmoob]

Re: EA's Pro Tak needs ump I know its WIP....

http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/901/901664p1.html

4th paragraph down, right under the picture.

The IGN writer wrote that.

BackBreaker Devs have stated many times that they are going for the "Any Given Sunday" and "Mike Vick/T.O. Nike commercial" feel. To me, that's realism.

[TDogg09]

Re: EA's Pro Tak needs ump I know its WIP....

The IGN writer wrote that.

BackBreaker Devs have stated many times that they are going for the "Any Given Sunday" and "Mike Vick/T.O. Nike commercial" feel. To me, that's realism.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVh0n03DnjQ&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eofficetally%2Ecom%2F&feature=player_embedded

That's pretty arcady in my opinion. I'm guessing by that statement though, going for an "Any Given Sunday" feel, it means really exaggerating what happens in football, which is not sim, it's more arcade.

[hmoob]

Re: EA's Pro Tak needs ump I know its WIP....

I'm aware of that. That was not the point I was leaning against, but I will clarify in a moment...




LOL.

Wrong.

Let me guess... you don't know me and you just assumed something about my knowledge which you actually don't know?





Yep, except what I am stating is fact so that's a moot point.

The point I am making about what BB is, and the same point I've made several times, is that the technology is far less nailed to predetermined set number of points like standard Motion capture, which is why you can get so much randomness in the tackling (something NM has touted an awful lot), and this is great... The fact that it's physics engine independent is great also and it sounds wonderful, but it's yet to be proven solid for a football game.

The advantage of traditional MoCap for football is that you can more intently forge animations that look like football.

There is really no debate here, because all one has to do is watch one video of BackBreaker and they can see all sorts of movements, reactions and hits that simply do not look like football, except for in its extreme cases. I laugh when people trash Madden's movements and then point to BB, when in fact a great deal of BB's movements and outcomes are totally arcade, too.

Has there been ONE solid wrap tackle shown yet? One solid group wrap? I haven't seen any of that from BB yet (and I doubt those things exist), but if you have a clip please post.

Lol, you'll support Madden to no end, even though it screwed you 4 times, in the a**. You're just really uneducated in a lot of things.

Also, that Pro-Tak gang-tackling looks like they're having a group hugs.