Madden NFL 10: PRO-TAK - What's NOT There Yet...

[hmoob]

Re: PRO-TAK - what's NOT there yet...

There are two types of sports games in any sport... your core sim games, and your diversionary games. Blitz, The Bigs, NBA Street, things along those lines are diversionary. They are what simmers play when they don't feel like thinking their way through a game and just wanna lay back and mess around. It's becoming very apparent that, while it probably wont be full-on Arcade like Blitz, BackBreaker is gonna be diversionary... it's not a pure-sim.

BB will be sim, just on different perspective of football. They are simming how the individual players feel in the football game, whereas Madden sims how people see the game. It's not an easy concept to understand so I can see why there is so much confusion on whether BB is 'sim' or not.

[adembroski]

Re: PRO-TAK - what's NOT there yet...

Why should we have one standard? BB should go through the same sh*t as Madden because.....exactly.

Madden has had 5 tries, it's up to them to prove themselves. We should except the same as always. They should wow us.

As for BB, we basically know nothing about it, except that it has Euphoria and it looks futuristic. It's their first crack at a football game, and they're taking chances trying to innovate the sport. We should be anything but negative about BB, they're giving us next-gen technology. Take off the blinders, man. It's basically impossible to have an negative opinion/perception of BB unless you brown-nose Madden devs on a daily basis.

The developer interaction here is one of the reasons Madden is improving. They are implementing suggestions we make. I can find a post from pre-'09 release asking for every new feature in Madden 10, I guarantee you. Operation Sports has been the Madden team's razor this year, and it's gonna show when the game drops.

But you suggest that, clearly, unlike the Madden team, the BackBreaker team is probably smarter than the average fan, and thus we should say nothing and just clap every time I new screen drops. The fact that this is their first football game doesn't seem like a good reason to automatically trust that they'll deliver... rather, precisely the opposite.

It took 2k Sports 5 years to get it right. You could see the improvement in each iteration, but there were huge game killers in 2k, 2k1, 2k2, 2k3, and 2k4. People forget that 2k5 was the first one to fully implement a momentum based locomotion system (it was in 2k4 in a very limited fashion... before that, it was all turn-on-a-dime momentumless locomotion). Madden had it in one form or another from the beginning, until some idiot who shares the name of a certain Red Sox player decided to yank it out.

Feedback and criticism do more good than bad, and Madden 10 is evidence of that. Like Madden, I want Backbreaker to be the best game it can be, for whatever type of game it is. For that reason, I'm not going to sit back and simply cheer them on. I'm going to tell them that glowing footballs are fecking stupid.

[speedy9386]

Re: PRO-TAK - what's NOT there yet...

Ian Cummings is officially THE MAN!!!!!

[speedy9386]

Re: PRO-TAK - what's NOT there yet...

The devs said that the glowing ball is just a tracking system on replays.

[Valdarez]

Re: PRO-TAK - what's NOT there yet...

I thought BB was going to be simulation just based off of the ultra realistic tackle styles, but the glowing red ball shows otherwise. As far as game play, we don't know what it's like yet, so we can't dissect it on any level. As far as picking it apart, if they come out and say they are going for true simulation, I'll be first in line to start pointing out flaws.

[maddenps2]

Re: PRO-TAK - what's NOT there yet...

I'll also add that people have the right to critisize madden Look at what the Next-gen Madden Prodeuct has offered to it's fans in the last several years.

Most can see that Madden hasn't shown to be the definition of what next gen footbal should be. It's not like Madden is a rookie to next gen anymore. It's been half a decade on nextgen... That's not even the worst problem with the madden next-gen products.

The most troubling fact is that year after year, well atleast the past two, Madden has had game ruining glitches and bugs that have hurt the game-play and made people put the game down hoping for better "next-year"

[adembroski]

Re: PRO-TAK - what's NOT there yet...

And why do you think backbreaker has to resort to a glowing ball. Have you ever thought of the fact that They do not have an option at making a 100% realistic football game when they don't have the NFL license to back it up.

So you're saying glowing balls are what a company must implement when without a license? I guess I don't see the connection.

The fact is, a realistic, non-NFL licensed football games aren't going sell. Look at happened to APF, it lasted one year. Smart developers can't design a product that is going fail, so based on their restrictions, the developers at back-breaker have make product adjustments.

Atleast they have the guts and knowledge to try something innovative with the tackling system, which is a huge part of a football game.

And again, it seems you are high on madden, which isn't a bad thing.

But can you tell me what Madden has Done with it's exclusive license on the next gen systems for 5 YEARS that has you so up in arms and supporting madden?

What they've done to make me as supportive as I am of Madden is put the game in my hands and let me see what's changed. I support Madden because I like the game. Not '09, not '06, Madden NFL 10. Can you think of a better reason to support a game?

Has madden defined what next-gen football should be to you?

Well I"m sure you'll be pleased, because backbreaker will probably fail to sell. At least backbreaker is trying to do something next-gen and or innovative with it's tackling system.

See, and this is just stupid. I'll be pleased because backbreaker will fail? No, I wont be pleased. I wasn't pleased when APF was scrapped, I wasn't pleased when Blitz was scrapped. I buy every halfway decent football game on the market, be it sim or otherwise. I love football. Over the past 5 years the only football games that have come out that I have not purchased were Madden 08 and Madden 07 (I bought Madden '06 for PC). At this moment, I own all of the Tecmos except the PS2 and DS versions, Madden 08 (because it was bought for me) for PC, NFL Head Coach 07 and 09, APF, NFL 2k5, and BTL2. I do not and will not own BCFE or its sequel because I will not support a blatantly racist game. Otherwise, I purchase every game worth purchasing, and I plan to add Backbreaker to my collection when it's out.

And who cares if backbreaker isn't 100% realistic

I do. Who else's opinion should matter to me?

, it's not like madden has been. Some of my favorite non-madden football games where ones that had a arcade theme, NFL blitz was awesome imo. Nba jam was an awesome arcade style basketball game. We will never have a chance to see those products again, and even if we do, i'm sure they will be short lived, just like APF and Blitz.

As I said, I like arcade stuff too. All I'm really saying as far as BackBreaker goes is that we have every right to tear it apart as much as we do Madden, and calling someone a fanboy because he thinks glowing balls are silly is ignorant and fanboyish in and of itself.

[maddenps2]

Re: PRO-TAK - what's NOT there yet...

The developer interaction here is one of the reasons Madden is improving.

Feedback and criticism do more good than bad, and Madden 10 is evidence of that. Like Madden, I want Backbreaker to be the best game it can be, for whatever type of game it is. For that reason, I'm not going to sit back and simply cheer them on. I'm going to tell them that glowing footballs are fecking stupid.

You can thank the Restrictions of a non-nfl license for some of the things you dislike in backbreaker, you know who to thank for that.

As for Madden 2010 being a better product, and your claim of evidence...I think you should wait, sit down and play Madden 2010 for a couple weeks before you state claim that. Talk is talk, interaction is good, but all that matters is implementation and the resulting product. Just because there is talk of improvement and good interaction with the developers doesn't guarantee anything.

[adembroski]

Re: PRO-TAK - what's NOT there yet...

BB will be sim, just on different perspective of football. They are simming how the individual players feel in the football game, whereas Madden sims how people see the game. It's not an easy concept to understand so I can see why there is so much confusion on whether BB is 'sim' or not.

Don't come up in here questioning people's intelligence, man, you are not going to last long that way. Not cool at all.

Sim is sim. Realism is realism. You can't implement an arcade style of football and call it "sim-in-a-different-way".

I know exactly what you're saying and I don't mind the idea. The perspective in-and-of-itself might be the biggest innovation BackBreaker makes if it works. It may end up being one of the most emotionally engaging football games ever made... but that doesn't make it sim.

[adembroski]

Re: PRO-TAK - what's NOT there yet...

You can thank the Restrictions of a non-nfl license for some of the things you dislike in backbreaker, you know who to thank for that.

As for Madden 2010 being a better product, and your claim of evidence...I think you should wait, sit down and play Madden 2010 for a couple weeks before you state claim that. Talk is talk, interaction is good, but all that matters is implementation and the resulting product. Just because there is talk of improvement and good interaction with the developers doesn't guarantee anything.

I have played it. It doesn't take a couple weeks to see the improvement. A couple of weeks will reveal its flaws, yes, but we're talking about Madden here... it's going to take some damn big flaws for this game to not be light years ahead of it's predecessor.

[hmoob]

Re: PRO-TAK - what's NOT there yet...

BB should recieve the benefit of the doubt, not Madden. If you can give both games that, more power to you, if you do it the other way around, all I gotta say is "how does it taste?"

[maddenps2]

Re: PRO-TAK - what's NOT there yet...

So you're saying glowing balls are what a company must implement when without a license? I guess I don't see the connection.



What they've done to make me as supportive as I am of Madden is put the game in my hands and let me see what's changed. I support Madden because I like the game. Not '09, not '06, Madden NFL 10. Can you think of a better reason to support a game?



See, and this is just stupid. I'll be pleased because backbreaker will fail? No, I wont be pleased. I wasn't pleased when APF was scrapped, I wasn't pleased when Blitz was scrapped. I buy every halfway decent football game on the market, be it sim or otherwise. I love football. Over the past 5 years the only football games that have come out that I have not purchased were Madden 08 and Madden 07 (I bought Madden '06 for PC). At this moment, I own all of the Tecmos except the PS2 and DS versions, Madden 08 (because it was bought for me) for PC, NFL Head Coach 07 and 09, APF, NFL 2k5, and BTL2. I do not and will not own BCFE or its sequel because I will not support a blatantly racist game. Otherwise, I purchase every game worth purchasing, and I plan to add Backbreaker to my collection when it's out.



I do. Who else's opinion should matter to me?



As I said, I like arcade stuff too. All I'm really saying as far as BackBreaker goes is that we have every right to tear it apart as much as we do Madden, and calling someone a fanboy because he thinks glowing balls are silly is ignorant and fanboyish in and of itself.

I disagree, you have to consider that madden is a 5 next-gen product, it deserves more criticism than back breaker.

If I took your unrealistic approach then I could just compare NFL2k5 to the Madden 2001, without even considering the fact that one has had 5 years to polish it's product.

[hmoob]

Re: PRO-TAK - what's NOT there yet...

Don't come up in here questioning people's intelligence, man, you are not going to last long that way. Not cool at all.

Sim is sim. Realism is realism. You can't implement an arcade style of football and call it "sim-in-a-different-way".

I know exactly what you're saying and I don't mind the idea. The perspective in-and-of-itself might be the biggest innovation BackBreaker makes if it works. It may end up being one of the most emotionally engaging football games ever made... but that doesn't make it sim.

You're confused.

Realism is different from a player's perspective than a fan-in-the-stand's perspective.

The player sees hits right in his face, and fast movements all round him, noise everywhere. And that's exactly what BB has shown so far. So it is SIM-ulation, from the players' perspective.

What Madden tries to achieve is SIM-ulation from a coach or a fan's perspective, seeing the whole field, knowing where everyone is, etc.

If you really did understand this concept, there should be no concern at all in that aspect. Yet I see quite the opposite on this forum.

[adembroski]

Re: PRO-TAK - what's NOT there yet...

BB should receive the benefit of the doubt, not Madden. If you can give both games that, more power to you, if you do it the other way around, all I gotta say is "how does it taste?"

I haven't given either team the benefit of the doubt. I have played Madden, so I know it's quality. Even still, I criticize it now. There are things missing from the game that I don't feel should be missing. There are ways the game operates that I don't like. Unfortunately my hands are tied on publicly criticizing because a lot of the things that I have criticized are not public yet. So no, you don't see me talk about it in public, but Ian's got a novel's worth of feedback from me and the other CD guys in word documents on his workstation.

Is it not enough to say I'm 90% likely to buy BB, regardless if it's sim or not? The point behind me saying it's not sim isn't that that's necessarily a bad thing, but that it doesn't belong in a conversation with Madden. It's not the same thing. Madden 09? Yes, because Madden 09 wasn't even attempting to be sim. Madden 10 is a different beast altogether, and BB is not in that category. It's not a 'lesser' game, but a different one.

And no, they do not have the right not to be criticized. Glowing balls are lame. Period.

[FootballDetails]

Re: PRO-TAK - what's NOT there yet...

Glowing balls are lame. Period.

Way to stay on topic.



This PRO-TAK discussion is great.