Madden NFL 10 Video: Pro-TAK Animation System

[hmoob]

Re: EA's Pro Tak needs ump I know its WIP....

^^^ Caught this while logging back in (unfortunately)... and there you go again running your mouth not know what you're talking about, LOL.

FYI, I created the NFL 2K5 Enhancement Pak back in 2006 (go read up on it) which was featured at the 2K Website for a quite a while and was all over the net. I also ran a board for it, and had a mail-in memory card service for loading the pak files for user from which I garned literally thousands of users in the U.S. and several foreign countries (which actually surprised me).

You just don't know what you're talking about!

Dude, for your own sake, why you don't you just give it up?

TheWatcher, you really love bringing attention to yourself. You're doing it again trying to impress me with all your accomplishments. It's the internet, no one's impressed by words.

The bottom line is, BB hasn't given us enough info for us to judge what type of game it's going to be. What they have shown us are things never before seen in a football game. Every football fan should be stoked about something as revolutionary as Euphoria. Sure, they haven't given us a lot of info, but that doesn't give us the right to bash it. I've seen people bash the game BECAUSE of lack of info. So if there's hate/criticism for the game at this stage, it's blind hate/Madden Fanboyism/ignorance.

After E3, bash it all you want. I might even join you, because I want on the field on-the-field experience that BB is going to have, but I still want it sim. Until then, everything is speculation.

I heard this somewhere: "The internet, where speculation trumps facts."

[tennesseetitans]

Re: EA's Pro Tak needs ump I know its WIP....

hmoob, there's no need to take things so personally. First you attack him personally, and then you attack him for his rebuttal. I've never seen a post by The Watcher to garner such hostility towards him (so what if he doesn't think BB is the be all end all), and he's been a part of a lot of important dialogue around here.

[Valdarez]

Re: EA's Pro Tak needs ump I know its WIP....

You're missing the point. Falling forward is not the benchmark on how each outcome should be, lol. There is also a big difference between falling forward because you plowed through and used weight to do it, and being blown up forward, lol.

First you said they have no weight, and now it's that they are being blown up forward. I definitely can't following your line of thought. If you watch the latest video posted (I posted a link somewhere just today) you'll see that there are normal tackles. Tackle Alley was obviously done to show case the more intense hits (something I was unsure of until I saw the latest video).

Further, there was no fight in the two-man gang tackles where he went backwards. He got hit, he went down, play over. You're telling me that a pro back goes down like that on a regular basis?

The point is that the level of contact is extreme. You can attempt to do those things in other football games, but for the most part the ballcarriers reaction will not be a hard fall, being blown up every time. You cannot me tell that this isn't the case in that video. You've gotta be kidding me.

Tackle Alley doesn't equal real game footage. It was designed to show big hits, and, again, if you watch the vidoes, they don't go down every time. I even called out specific tackles from the video so we could be on the same page, but you chose to ignore them.

Try that in 2K5 or APF. You can't, and if you do the ballcarriers reaction will not be even nearly the same. There is a fight taking place especially in APF and that's pretty damn realistic. These tackles in BB look cool, but the blowing up is all extreme scenario stuff. All the stuff in the air... it's like they're part acrobats, lol.

If you hit a guy square on, front to back, then 9/10 they are going to stop in their tracks. It's all about positioning though in APF2K8. I'd have to break down the tackles on case by case basis to validate the hits in tackle alley, but they didn't seem all that outlandish to me the first couple times I have watched it.

Wow. Where have you been? I think everybody knows that I'm a MASSIVE 2K fan. If anything, I have less of a point of reference with Madden over the past 10 years than I do with any other football games that have come out in that period.

Sorry, don't know you from a hole in the wall. I have only been following APF2K8 intently, and I haven't seen you on the scene. I'll take your word on it though.

Also, I'm going to have to disagree with the notion that control has nothing to do with momentum and all of that other stuff, and that may be because we have a different definition of what that means. I know for a fact that control feel can be modified in developement which is what they've done for Madden 10. While there are plenty of new animations, a lot of things have been modified and along with that must be mods to responses times... and you'll see what I mean when you play the game this season. They've done a very good job this year.

Everything can be modified in the game, but a players momentum should be visible and that's what I was pointing out. Point I was trying to get across is that it should be visible and felt, and Madden has failed to deliver on both those fronts thus far. I get what you are saying about response times, but those response times have to be represented by appropriate animations, turn cycles, starting/finishing of movement and such, and they aren't in Madden '09.

Nothing is perfect in any game, but the advancement with Madden is there this year.

I hope so, it's the only NFL game we got.

[adembroski]

Re: EA's Pro Tak needs ump I know its WIP....

Regarding the BB video; the back is tackled 11 times. Only 2 of those end up bringing him down by means other than initial violent contact. One of THOSE times the back was airborne and the tackler caught his legs. Virtually every tackle looked like Ronnie Lott on his best day hitting Warrick Dunn.

I have yet to see a tackle in BB that would not make a SportsCenter highlight reel, THAT'S the problem.

[Valdarez]

Re: EA's Pro Tak needs ump I know its WIP....

Regarding the BB video; the back is tackled 11 times. Only 2 of those end up bringing him down by means other than initial violent contact. One of THOSE times the back was airborne and the tackler caught his legs. Virtually every tackle looked like Ronnie Lott on his best day hitting Warrick Dunn.

I have yet to see a tackle in BB that would not make a SportsCenter highlight reel, THAT'S the problem.

That's not true adembroski, you saw that new video with actual gameplay footage and it has normal tackles.

[icomb1ne]

Re: EA's Pro Tak needs ump I know its WIP....

That's not true amber, you saw that new video with actual gameplay footage and it has normal tackles.

I think we should put off talking about BB until we get some solid gameplay videos instead of basing it off these trailers which are most likely made to look cool/extreme on purpose. I am getting tired of having to read about BB based solely on speculation of short trailers!!! As of right now, there is not enough info to talk about it as much as we have been talking about it lately.

[TheWatcher]

Re: EA's Pro Tak needs ump I know its WIP....

First you said they have no weight, and now it's that they are being blown up forward. I definitely can't following your line of thought.

... Huh?

I don't see the confusion in that at all. I think what I've said is pretty clear. The fact that the blow ups are happening so frequently is the issue, my statements have spoken clearly to that problem. I think weight and bracing should prevent a lot of those. You don't see them as blow ups, I do. Some others in this thread do also. We'll have to agree to disagree.

If you watch the latest video posted (I posted a link somewhere just today) you'll see that there are normal tackles. Tackle Alley was obviously done to show case the more intense hits (something I was unsure of until I saw the latest video).

Haven't seen it. I don't have quicktime, but I may download QT and take a look.

Tackle Alley doesn't equal real game footage. It was designed to show big hits, and, again, if you watch the vidoes, they don't go down every time.

I didn't say "they go down everytime" in that way. I can see some hits being brushed off, that's clear. But each time a tackle happens it looks like there is no fight from the ballcarrier. You see it differently. We must agree to disagree.

I also should point out that NM staff stated publicly back when this hit, that it was indeed a representation of in-game action and that Tackle Alley was potentially going to be part of the game (probably as a return drill/mode). Whatever tweaking they did to it I heard nothing about, and it probably came after I stopped keeping up on the game as much.

I even called out specific tackles from the video so we could be on the same page, but you chose to ignore them.

I did not ignore that at all. I read every line, but I fundamentally disagree with your view. That video does not represent routine occurences of football, that's my opinion.

If you hit a guy square on, front to back, then 9/10 they are going to stop in their tracks. It's all about positioning though in APF2K8. I'd have to break down the tackles on case by case basis to validate the hits in tackle alley, but they didn't seem all that outlandish to me the first couple times I have watched it.

It's not that the tackles in TA don't happen in real life, it's the frequency at which they happen in TA. But it's not just TA. People have pointed this out in all of the videos they've shown with tackling, and the recent one that was on the PSN show or whatever is just more of that. Looked cool as hell, but still the same thing.

Sorry, don't know you from a hole in the wall. I have only been following APF2K8 intently, and I haven't seen you on the scene. I'll take your word on it though.

I don't know you "from a whole in the wall" either, and because of that I wouldn't make a statement like the one you made a few pages back, because it clearly asserted a hypothetical that you might know, but you were very much mistaken :wink:

Everything can be modified in the game, but a players momentum should be visible and that's what I was pointing out. Point I was trying to get across is that it should be visible and felt, and Madden has failed to deliver on both those fronts thus far. I get what you are saying about response times, but those response times have to be represented by appropriate animations, turn cycles, starting/finishing of movement and such, and they aren't in Madden '09.

I hope so, it's the only NFL game we got.

Agreed.

[hmoob]

Re: EA's Pro Tak needs ump I know its WIP....

I think we should put off talking about BB until we get some solid gameplay videos instead of basing it off these trailers which are most likely made to look cool/extreme on purpose. I am getting tired of having to read about BB based solely on speculation of short trailers!!! As of right now, there is not enough info to talk about it as much as we have been talking about it lately.

[RGiles36]

Re: EA's Pro Tak needs ump I know its WIP....

I also should point out that NM staff stated publicly back when this hit, that it was indeed a representation of in-game action and that Tackle Alley was potentially going to be part of the game (probably as a return drill/mode). Whatever tweaking they did to it I heard nothing about, and it probably came after I stopped keeping up on the game as much.

Truth. I recall the NM staff mentioning this as well. In fact, it was a pretty 'big deal' when this trailer debuted b/c it was supposedly one of the trailers that was actually indicative of the on-field gameplay experience.

[Valdarez]

Re: EA's Pro Tak needs ump I know its WIP....

... Huh?

I don't see the confusion in that at all. I think what I've said is pretty clear. The fact that the blow ups are happening so frequently is the issue, my statements have spoken clearly to that problem. I think weight and bracing should prevent a lot of those. You don't see them as blow ups, I do. Some others in this thread do also. We'll have to agree to disagree.

It seems that weight would be necessary to carry them forward, and the lack of weight would justify them not moving forward, so when you say they have no way and are being blown up and still moving forward, then it seems... off.

The players are clearly not bracing for impact of the tackle though, and that's leading to hits that appear more violent than they would be otherwise.

Haven't seen it. I don't have quicktime, but I may download QT and take a look.

It would be nice for everyone to be on the same page with regards to video footage, and considering the link I provided is actual gameplay footage, and not a video of tackle alley that's meant to show case the extreme hits, I think it would be well worth your time.

I didn't say "they go down everytime" in that way. I can see some hits being brushed off, that's clear. But each time a tackle happens it looks like there is no fight from the ballcarrier. You see it differently. We must agree to disagree.

If you watch the gameplay, that's not always the case, but you're right about players not bracing for impact and that's leading to bigger hits.

I also should point out that NM staff stated publicly back when this hit, that it was indeed a representation of in-game action and that Tackle Alley was potentially going to be part of the game (probably as a return drill/mode). Whatever tweaking they did to it I heard nothing about, and it probably came after I stopped keeping up on the game as much.

Yes, it's in game action, but it's not what the gameplay looks like. Please watch the gameplay footage so you can discuss this knowledgeably. Discussing gameplay based on a demo meant to hightlight big hits (tackle alley), instead of actual gameplay is a waste of time.

It's not that the tackles in TA don't happen in real life, it's the frequency at which they happen in TA. But it's not just TA. People have pointed this out in all of the videos they've shown with tackling, and the recent one that was on the PSN show or whatever is just more of that. Looked cool as hell, but still the same thing.

No.. the most recent one was not on PSN. Please watch the video I posted earlier in this thread.

Here it is again. This is what we have been discussing when we say gameplay.

http://www.walsh-designs.com/bfl/ps3/videos/GEDC1872.MOV

I don't know you "from a whole in the wall" either, and because of that I wouldn't make a statement like the one you made a few pages back, because it clearly asserted a hypothetical that you might know, but you were very much mistaken

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. All I can go off is the content and tone of your responses.

[TheWatcher]

Re: EA's Pro Tak needs ump I know its WIP....

It seems that weight would be necessary to carry them forward, and the lack of weight would justify them not moving forward, so when you say they have no way and are being blown up and still moving forward, then it seems... off.

The players are clearly not bracing for impact of the tackle though, and that's leading to hits that appear more violent than they would be otherwise.

That's what I was getting at. It's in another recent video I'm going to link to in a moment.

I popped in APF... one of the reasons that the action looked solid was because that fight was there. The ballcarrier really fought back and you could sense that strongly on the overwhelming majority of carries. Sure there are big hits in APF, but the balance is more heavily weighed towards the fight so it translates well to looking like real football.

It would be nice for everyone to be on the same page with regards to video footage, and considering the link I provided is actual gameplay footage, and not a video of tackle alley that's meant to show case the extreme hits, I think it would be well worth your time.

If you watch the gameplay, that's not always the case, but you're right about players not bracing for impact and that's leading to bigger hits.

Yes, it's in game action, but it's not what the gameplay looks like. Please watch the gameplay footage so you can discuss this knowledgeably. Discussing gameplay based on a demo meant to hightlight big hits (tackle alley), instead of actual gameplay is a waste of time.

Well, you have to realize that it's not easy to keep up with every video that comes out. Some of these things are very new and I just hadn't had the opportunity to see it all. I have to base my opinion on what I've seen like we all do and those opinions can modify or change as new things are seen.

No.. the most recent one was not on PSN. Please watch the video I posted earlier in this thread.

I didn't say "most" recent... there was indeed a recent video from PSN (May 6th). Here it is:

http://blog.us.playstation.com/2009/05/06/qore-episode-12-featuring-batman-arkham-asylum-dirt-2-ghostbusters-and-euphoria/

It starts at 1:00... once again, very explosive.

There is also this one which is the full version of the promo vid posted above which I believe is very new--might've just come out over the last couple days--, not sure if you've seen it. I just watched it. Again, more explosions:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpxW9kckvpM

Also pay close attention to the developers words at 3:07:

"This is the kind of stuff you see all the time in BackBreaker..."

So far, he been proven true, lol.

Here it is again. This is what we have been discussing when we say gameplay.

http://www.walsh-designs.com/bfl/ps3/videos/GEDC1872.MOV

I haven't got QT yet, but if that video is this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iPFXjtsEew

... Then I'll say that it looks promising. I see some solid wrap tackle attempts that were broken by the ballcarrier, and I saw a stumble that was finished off pretty well. But there are some explosions, too (at :12 and :13).

We'll see what type of balance the final game has in this regard.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. All I can go off is the content and tone of your responses.

I don't think I really gave off the impression that Madden is my only point of reference...

[Valdarez]

Re: EA's Pro Tak needs ump I know its WIP....

Well, you have to realize that it's not easy to keep up with every video that comes out. Some of these things are very new and I just hadn't had the opportunity to see it all. I have to base my opinion on what I've seen like we all do and those opinions can modify or change as new things are seen.

Understood and that makes sense, but at the same time when a link to a video has been provided, and you continue to ramble on about a previous video while ignoring the new one, well, I'm sure you can see how someone else would perceive that as you attempting to ignore evidence in order to support your argument. Based on your last post, that doesn't appear to be the case now, but the unintended consequences is that it gave the appearance of bias.

There is also this one which is the full version of the promo vid posted above which I believe is very new--might've just come out over the last couple days--, not sure if you've seen it. I just watched it. Again, more explosions:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpxW9kckvpM

Also pay close attention to the developers words at 3:07:

"This is the kind of stuff you see all the time in BackBreaker..."

So far, he been proven true, lol.

C'mon now. His quote 'This is the kind of stuff you see all the time' is referring to all of the things that are going on, not an 'explosive tackle'. You're reaching on that one my friend.

I haven't got QT yet, but if that video is this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iPFXjtsEew

... Then I'll say that it looks promising. I see some solid wrap tackle attempts that were broken by the ballcarrier, and I saw a stumble that was finished off pretty well. But there are some explosions, too (at :12 and :13).

We'll see what type of balance the final game has in this regard.

Yep, that's the video, and after watching it you have to admit the tackles in it aren't all explosive, which was your argument before. That's why I was saying Tackle Alley was meant to show case the spectacular hits. Not only that, but that video shows that a player can can continue moving forward after a hit, so there is movement after a hit, there's just no A, A, A to break the tackle like you see in NFL2K5/APF2K8 (which I absolutely abhor as it's definitely not realistic).

That video is what convinced me that there were big hits. Tackle Alley was so close up, that I wrote a lot of it off to the camera angle. There's a hit at the end of that video though, in the endzone, where the guy absolutely gets clobbered. The camera angle is zoomed out quite a bit, and you can see it. It looks like he got hit by a Mack Truck. heh

Now, if we could only get a little of that hard hitting feeling into Madden. That would rock.

[RGiles36]

Re: EA's Pro Tak needs ump I know its WIP....

Not to infringe upon you and TheWatcher's debate, but with the exception of one broken tackle animation and the gang-tacklish sequence, everything else was over the top.

[TDogg09]

Re: EA's Pro Tak needs ump I know its WIP....

Now, if we could only get a little of that hard hitting feeling into Madden. That would rock.

I agree.

[Valdarez]

Re: EA's Pro Tak needs ump I know its WIP....

Not to infringe upon you and TheWatcher's debate, but with the exception of one broken tackle animation and the gang-tacklish sequence, everything else was over the top.

You realize there's not much more in that video right? It's looped twice. The only really big hit that I could see for sure was at the end, and it's a whopper. The rest look pretty good to me, at least of what I could see of them.