Whew - PRO-TAK is Much Better Now

[shotgun styles]

Re: Whew - PRO-TAK is much better now.

I wouldn't say no categorically here. The speed ratings are supposed to be based on 40 times, but they do not account for lateral movement. How else can they account for an aging Ray Lewis vs Chris Johnson on a swing pass? In real life Ray cut him off and blew him up. In Madden however, Johnson easily beats Lewis to the corner and runs up the field (this happened in the CD build actually and it was Lewis but the back was Lawrence Maroney; Lewis just couldn't get out on the swing pass. I was like ummmm we got a problem). They do not have a closing speed rating/attribute, so they have to account for it somewhere or else swing passes with fast HB's would be money.

I bet a million dollars that it wasn't that simple. If Chris Johnson had a clean run at the edge, and the end was sealed, Ray would have had to give some ground in order to tackle him.

I'm willing to bet, though, that Chris was not running full tilt toward the sideline. He may have had to change directions or stutter step. This would give Ray time to catch up.

I could tell you why Ray caught him if you posted the video. But one thing I GUARANTEE: It wasn't because Ray had some superhuman "catch up" speed.

The speed cheat is the NUMBER ONE SIM KILLER. It should not be allowed to return in ANY FORM.

[Valdarez]

Re: Whew - PRO-TAK is much better now.

NO NO NO....and um, HELL NO!

There is no "catch up speed" in real life, so there shouldn't be any in this game. If you want to stop outside runs, your DL should not allow the end to be sealed, and your LBs should flow to the ball and take good tackling angles.

NO MORE CHEATING SPEED. EVER!

It's already in the game. Kicks in with the adaptive AI. Odds are it's there as the difficulty level increases as well though I haven't seen/heard Ian specifically say that's the case.

[LBzrule]

Re: Whew - PRO-TAK is much better now.

I bet a million dollars that it wasn't that simple. If Chris Johnson had a clean run at the edge, and the end was sealed, Ray would have had to give some ground in order to tackle him.

I'm willing to bet, though, that Chris was not running full tilt toward the sideline. He may have had to change directions or stutter step. This would give Ray time to catch up.

I could tell you why Ray caught him if you posted the video. But one thing I GUARANTEE: It wasn't because Ray had some superhuman "catch up" speed.

The speed cheat is the NUMBER ONE SIM KILLER. It should not be allowed to return in ANY FORM.

You are talking about running plays, I'm talking about a swing pass to the back in the flats. It was as simple as I described and in the CD build it wasn't just Lewis. Most MLB's had trouble getting out there on swing passes. That's one reason why I asked them to back them the hell up. So they can take a better angle on the swing passes and not be too far out of position to make the tackle. To really make sure swing passes are not easy gimmie plays like NCAA 2009, they need to have the MLB's/ILB's get a quick boost to at least be out there in the vicinity as the back is receiving the ball, since it is not something they account for by just having 1 speed rating.

[Valdarez]

Re: Whew - PRO-TAK is much better now.

Come on man stop spreading bull****. That's absolutely impossible on any decent difficulty. That's the stuff you see by people with no lives who edit ratings and play on Rookie just to prove 2k5 is their lord and savior. You're better than that. I understand your gripes with Madden but saying something like this is just laughable.

I can say with 100% certainty that that is impossible on All Pro or All Madden difficulties with standard ratings. If you post a video proving that you can do that (and no, don't post one of the doctored videos on youtube) I'll buy you a copy of the game.

It's very doable. I was playing my Madden difficulty setting, so not sure what all the sliders were at, but they were at least All Pro for Running. Once you break away clean the AI just follows, they don't take smart paths towards the player. You can run a circle if you use the whole field. I can say with 100% certainty this is possible. As long as your player is faster than the other players, they can't catch up.

[Valdarez]

Re: Whew - PRO-TAK is much better now.

Sorry, I tried this last night with Jordy Nelson on 09 on All-Pro on a kick return. I didn't go backwards too far at all before being tackled.

I did it after I broke away clean for the TD, I turned at the 10 yard line or so, ran back the other direction, all the way back to my end zone. So I didn't start circling until I had a clean break away for a TD. That's the difference. Without smart tackling angles and no catchup speed, it's going to happen.

[LBzrule]

Re: Whew - PRO-TAK is Much Better Now

LB do you know if they will fix the sweeps to the right? The sweeps on that side are still going back to far.

I ran it to the left and it worked out fine, but not to the right. I'll ask about it.

[shotgun styles]

Re: Whew - PRO-TAK is much better now.

You are talking about running plays, I'm talking about a swing pass to the back in the flats. It was as simple as I described and in the CD build it wasn't just Lewis. Most MLB's had trouble getting out there on swing passes. That's one reason why I asked them to back them the hell up. So they can take a better angle on the swing passes and not be too far out of position to make the tackle. To really make sure swing passes are not easy gimmie plays like NCAA 2009, they need to have the MLB's/ILB's get a quick boost to at least be out there in the vicinity as the back is receiving the ball, since it is not something they account for by just having 1 speed rating.

There are a couple of ways to fix this problem WITHOUT resorting to the dreaded SPEED CHEAT.

First off, no one catches swing passes at full sprint. That's a pass that requires you to turn and adjust to make the catch. That gives the defense time to catch up.

Second, I agree that the LBs should not be right on top of the DL. They should have a few yards of space to operate in.

Third, give ground. The LBs should be using good angles and be willing to give up 5 yards to make a tackle rather than giving up 50 yards going for the killshot. This should also be in their ratings. A crappy LB should occasionally get beat for taking a bad angle.

Fourth, is anticipation. We have adaptive AI now. If Lewis knows you like to throw swings on 3rd and short, he should be waiting on it. This is so much of what makes Ray great. He sees things BEFORE they happen.

Please let the speed cheat die. As long as it's in the game, outside runs will be crap, it will be impossible to run after the catch against the CPU, and the game will generally not produce realistic play results.

[tmulk]

Re: Whew - PRO-TAK is much better now.

Ian the Pass Rush seems to be the final thing you guys need to knock this out of the park!

Get those DE's down field!

Seen every video, and in my opinion this is all that is Visually evident that needs to be fixed. Lets see some blockers getting knocked on their ARSE every once in awhile. Haynsworth should be leveling guys in 1 on 1 situations, at least in obvious passing downs. Make us put that QB juke to work!!

[LBzrule]

Re: Whew - PRO-TAK is much better now.

There are a couple of ways to fix this problem WITHOUT resorting to the dreaded SPEED CHEAT.

First off, no one catches swing passes at full sprint. That's a pass that requires you to turn and adjust to make the catch. That gives the defense time to catch up.

Second, I agree that the LBs should not be right on top of the DL. They should have a few yards of space to operate in.

Third, give ground. The LBs should be using good angles and be willing to give up 5 yards to make a tackle rather than giving up 50 yards going for the killshot. This should also be in their ratings. A crappy LB should occasionally get beat for taking a bad angle.

Fourth, is anticipation. We have adaptive AI now. If Lewis knows you like to throw swings on 3rd and short, he should be waiting on it. This is so much of what makes Ray great. He sees things BEFORE they happen.

Please let the speed cheat die. As long as it's in the game, outside runs will be crap, it will be impossible to run after the catch against the CPU, and the game will generally not produce realistic play results.

Hey, I can agree with these. But with regard to #1 I can see guys complaining about their offensive player having to slow down. Also in relation to this one, QB's do not throw these passes with a lot of velocity on them either so that might also help. Finally, I also think it has to do with the physics too. If the RB had to plant, cut and turn up the field then that would slow his speed down some. Ok you convinced me, we don't need the speed cheat, as long as other elements are implemented and are working properly.

[shotgun styles]

Re: Whew - PRO-TAK is much better now.

Hey, I can agree with these. But with regard to #1 I can see guys complaining about their offensive player having to slow down. Also in relation to this one, QB's do not throw these passes with a lot of velocity on them either so that might also help. Finally, I also think it has to do with the physics too. If the RB had to plant, cut and turn up the field then that would slow his speed down some. Ok you convinced me, we don't need the speed cheat, as long as other elements are implemented and are working properly.

The best part is, when you DO get blown up in the backfield, you'll be upset that you got beat, not upset because you feel cheated. That is all I want. To pay for my own mistakes, and win the battles I've earned.

[shotgun styles]

Re: Whew - PRO-TAK is much better now.

It's already in the game. Kicks in with the adaptive AI. Odds are it's there as the difficulty level increases as well though I haven't seen/heard Ian specifically say that's the case.

Val, I respect you and read your posts regularly. Dude, I hope you are dead wrong. I really do.

Ian promised me man-to-man that there would be NO speed cheats. He said that the adaptive AI made the speed cheat obsolete. So if you're saying that AAI uses the speed cheat, I am very disappointed.

I'm hoping you've just got a wire crossed here. If you're right, this game is going to be another CPU cheatfest and I want no part of it.

[lolfalconsbeatu]

Re: Whew - PRO-TAK is Much Better Now

Ian is really on top of things I see...

But can I get any official quote on if the physics of rocket catching have been altered

Not a deal breaker for me (how could it be with how great the game looks)...but just something I've been inquired about since the end of '09...

Anyhow, great job at E3, love the vids, and you have my 60 cash...

...well i actually paid credit, but you got it..

[shotgun styles]

Re: Whew - PRO-TAK is Much Better Now

Here's the quote Val, uncut and in it's entirety.

I thought we were pretty clear here. Our goal for Madden is to be a sim. We don't want any cheats, period, regardless of skill level. To respond to your specific complaints

Speed Cheat: 100% doesn't exist. No speed ratings are altered through skill levels. Only awareness and play recognition (which is reaction time)
CPU Robo QB: Tuning problem in 09 - not a deliberate 'cheat'. Definitely being addressed in 10.
Pulling defenders: Absolutely doesn't exist. When a player has control the CPU doesn't alter his input whatsoever.
Zombie blockers: Doesn't exist - no logic whatsoever to change blocking AI based on score difference
QB speed: Hasn't existed since Madden 04. On a side note, do you think scrambling QB's haven't been powerful enough in the past? Do you want to make them more powerful? Just wondering on this one...
Zero momentum: Not sure how this is a 'cheat', because the user controlled player has the exact same physics model that the CPU one does. This seems like just your complaint with how the players feel (which I agree with)
Touch tackling: Yep, suction...known (and oft-discussed) tuning problem in 09. Definitely being addressed in 10.

If this list is still true, this will be a great game. If Ian broke his word then this game will be a shadow of it's true potential.

[LBzrule]

Re: Whew - PRO-TAK is Much Better Now

Ian is really on top of things I see...

But can I get any official quote on if the physics of rocket catching have been altered

Not a deal breaker for me (how could it be with how great the game looks)...but just something I've been inquired about since the end of '09...

Anyhow, great job at E3, love the vids, and you have my 60 cash...

...well i actually paid credit, but you got it..

The only thing people can say is what they were or were not able to do. All EA is going to say is they worked their best to remove that and to their knowledge it is out. For all of us that have played the game, CD and people at E3, no one has been able to do it. Nobody. Now does that mean that somebody out there is not going to play around and try to find a way to do it? Nope, there are no guarantees that people are not going to find a way. But at this point everything seems great, with nobody being able to do it. But of course give people time, like 4 days and 10 hours a day of play and I'm sure somebody is going to find something I hope not though. We'll see.

[ch46647]

Re: Whew - PRO-TAK is Much Better Now

LBZ what is your take on the passing game when you played?

1. Are the velocity of the throws back to where you think they should be?
2. Is the touch passing up to where you think it should be?
3. Could you tell a big difference between the different QB's in terms of accuracy?
4. Could you squeeze a pass in between the LB's and safeties with a touch pass?
5. Whats your general opinon of Madden 10's passing game? (I thought 09 was pretty bad IMO)

EDIT: Could you throw accurate passes off your back foot and on the run on a consistant basis? (I did see a few examples of this in the E3 videos and I am hoping it was just because of the low difficulty settings)

Thanks!