Breaking Down Sliders... How They Really Work

[pbz06]

Re: Breaking Down Sliders... How They Really Work

What other categories do you suggest need to be closer to extreme?

I made some tweaks above in BOLD

[bill2451]

Re: Breaking Down Sliders... How They Really Work

are you using the same sliders for human and cpu?

I think you're going the wrong way with Run Block and Block Shed... remember, run block determines the blocking animation, with it that high you're going to see a lot more suction blocking on guys that shouldnt get blocked, and with Block Shed at 5 it will be much harder to break out of those blocks...

not only do I think that is way too easy for the human, but I think while it will help the CPU run game get realistic results (which is always a good thing), I'm not sure the actual gameplay will be realistic (aka rushing yards for the cpu may be realistic, but at the cost of unrealistic blocking)

I'd put Run blocking on the lower end of the spectrum (def for human, maybe closer to the middle for the CPU cause they do need some help)... I'm not sure how low mind you, but I think both blockings should go low to create more realistic blocking animations/scenarios... block shedding i'm guessing could go more near 50...

Pass Defense reaction time and WR catching have to have a bigger difference as well... after testing more last night, both work togther to create realistic seperation... With a lower reaction time the corners wont be able to run the WR's route as effectively as the WR (which is good), unless they are playing up on the receiver and the WR has low catching... as it turns out, the WR Catching slider effects more than the drop rate... it plays a huge part in figuring out how effective the CB are at jamming the WR at the line...

the problem with the Madden design is that generally speaking 4 things happen when the CB is playing up at the line... 1) the CB completely jams the WR... 2) the CB gets a hand up into the WR and the WR is slightly slowed down but he knocks the hand away and goes upfield... 3) Very similar to #2 except the animation is a little different. The CB never really gets his hand up and kind of backs off, which may not seem important but it is... 4) The CB tries to jam the WR and gets blown by

the problem is that in Madden momentum is a fickle thing, and a lot of routes are similar in this regard...

in scenario #1 both players are slowed down equally. This sucks as the qb because it messes up your timing and you have to wait for the WR, but it does not result in the CB "jumping" the route, because both players are going the same speed, and therefore when it comes time to make their cut, both players either cut unrealistically, or cut using animations that resemble the player having momentum and having to shift their weight

scenario #2 is the worst scenario... this original jam animation results in the WR going faster than the CB. This would seem like a good thing, except that when it is time for the WR to make his cut in his route, he's going fast enough for momentum to kick in. If he's doing a simple square route in, he has to take a couple of small steps to slow down, then plant his right foot and turn 90 degrees (a very good and realistic animation)... the problem is that the CB is now going slower than the WR, therefore he doesnt reach the threshold to trigger that same type of animation, and he does a "super turn" and is suddenly cutting off the WR and seemingly "knows the route"...

scenario #3 is the same as scenario #1... this time though, instead of both guys being slowed down the same amount, both guys dont really get slowed down at all... the point is that both the WR and CB are going the same speed (slow in this case) and both do the super turn... the turn is unrealistic, but the results are acceptable because both players did it

scenario #4 the CB gets burned... except if the WR is doing any kind of square route, the WR will again have to shift using momentum, while the CB wont, meaning one second the CB will be burned, the next he will seem "super human" and suddenly be in front of your guy... if the WR is running a post or something, his momentum change isnt as big because he's not turning 90 degrees... meaning the non momentum of the CB doesnt allow him to gain as much ground back or jump the route because he's too far behind

this lack of momentum is something that is absolutely horrid on Maddens part, and I think contributes HUGELY to the gameplay flaws... scenario #2 is the most common, which means that WR are using momentum most of the time while CB's are not, resulting in crazy secondary play... its a shame too, because it seems like it would be an easy fix, just lower the threshold that players have to use at least some kind of momentum when they turn, and viola, no more CB's turning on a dime when WR's have to shift momentum.

going back to my original point now, the WR Catching slider seems to have a big effect on how successful the WR is at not being jammed (aka it seems to control what types of animation is going to happen when the CB presses the WR)... it wont always be the same animation, but more times than not it will be animation #2... the key is to get the settings so that animation #3 is the most common, with the other 3 being sprinkled in... I havent fully tested what the lowest threshold to see this happen is, but I did test 80 briefly last night (and a pretty low Pass Reaction time, which also effects the jam success) and that seemed to be working

now this will adversely effect drops, but if it can produce more realistic secondary play on every down, i'll sacrifice a few dropped passes

and if we can figure out the point where momentum is being used for the CB's and WR's, you can then move reaction time up/down to get the type of seperation you are looking for

a low reaction time will mean the CB first sees the WR shifting momentum, the CB then "reacts" and starts to [hopefully] shift his momentum. The lower the setting, the longer it takes him to "react" while at 100 he's basically "reacting" at the exact same time as the WR... however if the CB isnt using momentum and just turning on a dime, his reaction time doesnt matter because he's still going to beat the WR to the spot.

[bill2451]

Re: Breaking Down Sliders... How They Really Work

Pass Rushing at 75 for you may be too high or low depending on how you play defense... if you play as a DE a lot (like me) then it'll prolly have to go lower (I kill with Justin Tuck) but if you're playing as a LB or in the secondary, it could probably even go higher because your teams AI isnt as good as you

so that one really depends on your skill and style of play

[bill2451]

Re: Breaking Down Sliders... How They Really Work

for anyone reading this, put CPU reaction time on 0 and then test out different WR Catching slider amounts...

make sure the cpu is pressing (and make sure the route being run is far enough away from the line of scrimmage so that momentum will actually take place, if it wont take place regardless because its too close to the line and the players dont have enough speed, then this entire test is pointless), test the receivers at 0 WR Catching, 25, 50, 75, and 100... test multiple times because anything can happen on an individual play, so make sure you have a good sample size

watch the replays and see exactly what animations occur when the WR is pressed, then note how it effects route running... the more extreme the route (aka a square route vs a post) the easier it will be to see momentum (or a lack thereof).

again test all different kinds of WR Catching slider amounts, and see how each one effects the success rate of not being jammed, and then pay attention to how each jam animation effects the resulting momentum of both the CB and WR (and using the transitive property, if WR Catching controls jam animation, and jam animation controls momentum for both CB and WR, then WR catching controls momuntum)

[RoyalBoyle78]

Re: Breaking Down Sliders... How They Really Work

bill good breakdown, what sliders are you using?

[bill2451]

Re: Breaking Down Sliders... How They Really Work

right now I have not actually created a slider set... I was playing games before with a slider set I created that gave me good final results, but basically pretty unrealistic gameplay (and now I'm really beginning to see why)

so right now ive just been in practice testing different sliders on extreme settings, because if you do that, its much easier to see what actually changes about the gameplay

so using that knowledge, ill hopefully be creating a slider set in the next few days

i'd love for other people to take this information and use it to create sliders too... how low should Pass Block and Run block go to produce the most realistic blocking animations? That is step #1, and from there, the other pieces should begin to fall into place

[MAzing87]

Re: Breaking Down Sliders... How They Really Work

This is the most helpful and informative post I have ever read since being in these forums. As a forum user, I thank and appreciate you taking time out of your day, to study, and post your findings on what the sliders are about.

With this information, it encourages me to restart my offline franchise and find the best sliders available to maximize my NFL experience in a realistic way.

You Bill2451 are a standout dude!

[MAzing87]

Re: Breaking Down Sliders... How They Really Work

Mods need to sticky this thread. It makes sense and prevents people from creating "How do sliders work" threads.

[Sundropjunkie]

Re: Breaking Down Sliders... How They Really Work

Awesome read

[matthewrshaul]

Re: Breaking Down Sliders... How They Really Work

My main issue is just the lack of pancake #'s by my O-line. I don't want to mess with them too much because I'm ok with guys missing blocks sometimes, and I'm ok with the pressure I'm on my QB. I've learned to get rid of the ball earlier. And I love it that people just can't roll out and wait for a WR to come open on a deep post. I just need a slider setting to increase my # of pancakes. Even by just a liitle. Any suggestions?

[DrewBledsoe]

Re: Breaking Down Sliders... How They Really Work

Great Post Bill!

You've probably already realised something I'm going to say. Re The CPU Pass Block, I reckon the devs decided the only way the cpu QB could even slightly perform sensibly, was to give a huge. massive inbuilt Pass Block Setting. Notice how even with 0 cpu Pass Blocking, the human (non player controlled) Blitzers often get dragged in to a block.

I said one year in slight jest " why does it feel like the cpu LB are planning a cunning stunt (yes pun intended), while my LB are thinking "right, who's supposed to block me on this play, I'd better go find him and let him"/ It would also explain why it's almost impossible to blitz through the "a" gap for example, because the guard or center has such a area of influence to his pass blocking. It's like there is an invisible wall there often. I reckon the cpu probably has an inbuilt scratch value of 300 for pass blocking. All the slider is doing, is adding a small percentage on top of that.

Anyways, great patience with the testing, fancy doing anything as similarly methodical for Pass Reaction Time, even though this sounds obvious, no-one seems 100% sure exactly what it does, in the same manner that you seem to have cracked blocking? (e.g. does it make corners run the receivers routes better? Do they stay tighter in zone coverage? Or do they just react better to a thrown ball..Or all of the above and more?)

Thanks again


Btw, And I'm sure you and most people know this, but for years, Madden has had something I call the "EA's Variety Slider" or EVS for short. If it didn't exist, then if you played team A vs team B, 20 times in a row, you'd get very similar stats and results (overall). But you don't. For example, I played the Giants vs My Jets 5 games in a row, for one of my slider tests. In 4 of those 5 games, Jones found it fairly tough to run with my sliders, mostly getting around 17-50, 17-60 in the game. Then in one game, on my very first run, I got a decent gain. Nothing fancy, just better blocking. I finished that one with something like 25/130, no really big gain to boost that. I wasn't running any better, and wasn't playing against a diff D scheme, I was calling the same plays, but they were almost all working.

This is the EVS. Before some games, the program seems to decide that x or y rating will be boosted/ lowered for the whole game. For that game, it seemed to be human run block up, Cpu Blk Shed down, and RB Break Tackle up. It may even influence individual ratings. It's impossible to say. The point being, that this does exist, and kicks in quite frequently. That's why it's so important to test sliders with the same 2 teams and conditions (for a number of games at least).

Just a thought really, to add on to the general slider info. You read a lot on these forums, "I used X's sliders, and they were too easy/too hard, I blew out the computer it couldn't run/ran too easily etc.etc." Best to play the same game again, and see how it goes. Then again, it's the only way to get a feel for if the sliders work for you overall..

Enough of this rant, you're doing a fine job

[bill2451]

Re: Breaking Down Sliders... How They Really Work

db, I have a long post on page 2 that gets into Pass Reaction time a bit... my testing more turned into WR Catching testing, but Pass Reaction is involved some.

initial results are it has a small effect on CB's aggressiveness (quicker reactions means they can play tighter because they react quicker... their press is slightly more effective, etc)...

the easiest thing to recognize is that reaction time plays a huge part in actually covering the WR when they make cuts... 0 reaction time will usually mean the CB will take a step or two after the WR starts his cut, before they can adjust and start to cut themselves, while 100 reaction time means that the CB pretty much knows exactly when the WR is going to turn and does it at the same time

in my 2nd page post though, I explain why that reaction time is pointless 80% of the time (because the WR has to adjust for momentum and take a few small steps and plant while the CB can super turn... which means they easily make up for that slightly later reaction time and end up getting ahead of the WR anyway)

there could possibly be a way to reduce the defensive back super turn though so that both offense and defense have to use that momentum animation more than they currently do (I doubt it can be removed 100%)... which would then make reaction time a very useful thing to adjust

just check out the long post on page 2

I still plan to test other things to see what (if any) other effects reaction time has... because that is certainly something very important that I'm still not sure on

[RumbleCard]

Re: Breaking Down Sliders... How They Really Work

If you want the defensive line to be better, but blitzes to have more of an effect, put both the Pass Rush and Pass Block sliders low... this will make it harder for the o-line to engage the blitzers because they will be on the move and coming from different angles (remember it is still easy for them to initially engage the o-line if they are just coming right at them, so you dont have to worry about that) while making them more capable when the block is engaged with the line... who knows, it could even make the 3-4 relevant with different blitzing schemes...

from what I see, low Pass Block makes offensive line stunts, blitzes, and zone blitzes where ends drop into coverage more effective because it means guys are coming at the QB from all different places (meaning the chances of them getting by w/out being suctioned into a block are increased) while high Pass Block pretty much eliminates those things from being a threat because the O-line can engage in a block with pretty much anyone coming at them from any angle

High Pass Rush meanwhile will make the d-line deadly (especially user controlled people) because they simply cant be blocked for long at all... and a low Pass Rush will yield the d-line impotent because its harder for them to get out of a block once engaged, and if you have it low enough you better be prepared to blitz the house everytime otherwise the QB will literally have 10 seconds in the pocket.

Okay I bolded some points I want clarification on. I'm pretty much with you on everything but this. If the CPU has a low Pass Block its harder for the animation to engage. If I have a high pass rush I'm more effective at getting out of the block and getting to the QB.

So why would I want pass block and pass rush low. Wouldn't I want pass block to be low and my pass rush to be high to fully optimize my chances of getting a sack?

Are you saying it would be harder for the o-lineman to come off my d-lineman and pick up the blitzing LB's in a 3-4 if my pass rush was low because the o-line would be engaged with my d-lineman longer?

Effectively saying that if you run a 3-4 and you want to see more LB sacks lower your pass rush along with the pass block because it'll get the LB's through the holes better......because the o-line isn't releasing from the d-lineman and jumping on to the LB's.

[bill2451]

Re: Breaking Down Sliders... How They Really Work

Okay I bolded some points I want clarification on. I'm pretty much with you on everything but this. If the CPU has a low Pass Block its harder for the animation to engage. If I have a high pass rush I'm more effective at getting out of the block and getting to the QB.

So why would I want pass block and pass rush low. Wouldn't I want pass block to be low and my pass rush to be high to fully optimize my chances of getting a sack?

Are you saying it would be harder for the o-lineman to come off my d-lineman and pick up the blitzing LB's in a 3-4 if my pass rush was low because the o-line would be engaged with my d-lineman longer?

it depends greatly on how you play defense... for me, I'm the giants and play as Osi or Tuck quite a bit... so for me, a high Pass Rush is way too easy because I can burn the CPU

now if you play as a LB or in the secondary, a high Pass rush is probably necessary because the ai wont shed blocks very well otherwise

you bring up an interesting point with the blitz part though... this is the area where any help and testing by other people to find the correct balance would be awesome...

assuming your not playing on the d-line and the CPU pass blocking is on the low end (so its harder to engage a block), a low Pass Rush would mean longer blocks being held, which should mean blitzers have a better chance at finding a gap and getting the to QB... the problem is that if its too low you'll have to have some sort of blitz every play to get any pressure (which i guess is realistic in the 3-4), and the moment any of your blitzers get fully engaged, their pass rush hopes are done.

there has to be a balance for AI lineman to shed blocks or have those blocks held... and again idk exactly what the Pass Rush slider would have to be at for that balance, so more people testing and giving input the better... but also keep in mind that balance should make the 3-4 and 4-3 equal... the 4-3 would probably need higher Pass Rush (for AI controlled) because theres less blitzing, and the 3-4 would need lower because blocks should be held longer and more blitzing

find where Pass Rush is as realistic as possible for 4-3... find where its as realistic as possible for 3-4... and then somewhere in between it should be a good balance for both

if that balance can be achieved where the AI can produce good results, i'd stop playing as the DE and play more coverage... because if i keep playing DE my results would vary grealy

[g2thecore]

Re: Breaking Down Sliders... How They Really Work

This dude Bill deserves a freaking trophy!!! I created some sliders last night based on your theory, and I gotta say it was AMAZING! Probably the most realistic football experience I've had thus far! And for that, I give you all the credit.

I'll be posting them later on today,and maybe people will dissect and analyze them to make them better. I basically used your "extremes" theory, and played around with the various blocking settings and I got some good results.

I do have a question though, where does the "speed threshold" factor into all this? Did you experiment with that as well? Do you think playing on slow with an extreme threshold of let's say 5, is acceptable or realistic?