Football, 5 years after.

[Paytonsplace]

I would like this thread to be an honest critique of the state of football gaming 5 years after the most significant event (NFL exclusive) in football gaming history has taken place. I'd like to evaluate what the consumer has gained and lost. Below you may find how I feel about it. I'm interested in opinions that agree/disagree with what I say. Madden/2K/Gameday/Blitz, it does not matter. What matters is the quality of the representation of our favorite sport

It has been 5 years since the NFL exclusive went to EA. I think it is interesting t o evaluate what we’ve seen in the way of innovation since then.

1. Graphics: This is easy. The PS3 and Xbox 360 has allowed football games to blow us away with fantastic graphics.

2. Animation: Unfortunately, there has not been as much progress here. A careful examination of NFL 2K5 demonstrates that Madden has been playing catch-up here over the last 5 years. Whether it is running animations or tackling, 2K seems to hold the advantage still. Unfortunately, no breakthroughs here, perhaps “Backbreaker” will innovate but right now that seems like vaporware.

3. AI: Unfortunately there has been no advance here. Indeed, the VIP system seems to be the gold standard for AI in football. Madden’s adaptive AI is not adapting. More work needs to be done. There has been no advance here. In fact it seems as though a few steps backwards have been taken.

4. Physics: This ties in with animations and again there has been no significant advance in this area. This year’s Pro Tack system seems like a good attempt however I believe it needs more refinement.

I appreciate what Madden has done for football gaming. I credit Madden with the greatest advance football video gaming has seen, when it debuted on the Genesis. However, the four categories above are among the most important in football gaming and when only one (graphics) has advanced to any meaningful degree over a period of five years… well then what does that say about the health of this hobby?

Look at other games and see what has been done.

[JJ Sticks]

Re: Football, 5 years after.

Great post.

[TeamBuilder]

Re: Football, 5 years after.

Excellent post.

[H1DR03L3KTRIC]

Re: Football, 5 years after.

I liked reading the original post.

[DorneyDave]

Re: Football, 5 years after.

Yep, agreed with the original post. I agree, it seems like football gaming has taken a step-backwards in general with this gen. I'm not sure why, and I'll probably never know. Maybe it's because I'm older, but the Madden games on this gen just feel less fun and don't have any life to them...in any area.

Hopefully it can catch up before the next generation of consoles comes out and we all have to start over.

[bang911]

Re: Football, 5 years after.

Great post.

Just speaking the straight truth.

[GiantBlue76]

Re: Football, 5 years after.

100% agreed. Football gaming has completely gone to crap. Well, NFL football gaming anyway...

[klb835]

Re: Football, 5 years after.

#1 .... whoever is blown away by these graphics is blind

[pietasterp]

Re: Football, 5 years after.

It's an interesting question, but unfortunately, there's really no way to objectively evaluate how far the genre has come (or, conversely, how badly it's been hurt) since Madden became the only game in town. One can let their imagination run wild and wonder how great the games might be at this point, extrapolating prior advances and assuming we should be playing an exact replica of Sunday afternoons by this point, but (as they say in the investment world) past performance is not an indicator of future results.

I think it is reasonable, however, to look at the astounding leap football gaming took in the years there was competition, and ask if what we've seen in the past 5 years matches what I will (somewhat arbitrarily) call the "golden era" of football gaming (2000-2005). First, however, my recollection of modern football gaming to give some context (feel free to correct what needs correcting or point out errors - this is non-Googled, just recalling off the top of my head): Prior to the original "John Madden Football", videogame football was pretty blah - "10-yard Fight", "John Elway Football", etc. I credit Madden with being the first "modern" football game when it was released, and it set the standard for many years, never really being challenged until 989 released NFL Gameday and pretty much embarrassed Madden with the first 3D football engine (way back in the day on the original Playstation). Gameday was obviously superior to Madden that EA took the unprecedented year-off to regroup (notably, after proclaiming that a 3D football games was not do-able on Playstation hardware....). Of course, in the following years Madden regained its mojo while Gameday stagnated, and once again was the game to beat. Fast-forward (skipping over a lot of stuff) to 1999....

That year, the Sega Dreamcast was released, and EA (in a decision that would lead to a chain of events that ultimately led to the exclusivity deal in 2004) decided against supporting the Sega system for reasons that are unclear to me to this day. Knowing that you can't launch a game system in the U.S.A. and have any chance at survival without an NFL football game, a small collection of ex-Madden programmers (among others) formed Visual Concepts and released NFL 2K. I still to this day remember where I was when I first saw that game in action - I was ambling into a Gamestop (I think to buy Links LS for the PC or something - golf games, another pet peeve of mine, I'll leave to the appropriate forum...) and the game was playing on one of the TV's, and I literally stopped in my tracks and stared for a solid 10 minutes while that game played in demo mode. For those of us old enough to remember, prior to that we had never seen anything like it in videogames; it really honestly looked like a live NFL broadcast, and I remember thinking at that time that it was not possible for football videogames to look that real. For the first (and only) time in my life I asked the clerk "What game is that????", and upon being told, forgot all about what I went in there for and bought a Dreamcast and NFL2K on the spot. Only time in my life I ever made a game system decision on a snap decision...

Of course, over the next 5 years, Madden would snap out of its "roster update" mode and start to improve by leaps and bounds on the PS2, but the damage was done: there was officially another game in town by 2004. I won't re-hash what happened that year (the year of ESPN NFL2K5 and Madden 2005), but suffice to say that was the year I joined Operation Sports forums and I don't think I've ever seen the forums that lively and populated in the years since. From 1999 through 2004, however, football videogaming was improving by what can only be described as astounding increments; look at NFL2k5 and the original NFL2k, or Madden 2005 and Madden 2000 - the games look like they were made in different centuries (okay, smart-alecs, I guess they technically WERE made in different centuries, so don't bother pointing that out...).

Fast-forward again to today; has there been that light-year of advancement since Madden 2005 and NFL2k5? I think most people would agree that the answer is "no". I further think many people, myself included, might even suggest that in many ways football gaming has regressed a little. Of course Madden 10 is much better than 2005 in terms of graphics, but functionally, in terms of on-the-field gameplay, franchise mode, etc., how far have we really come? Now, it's quite possible that the advances were so great from 1999-2004 that it was not possible for the games to keep evolving at that rate, but if we look at other sports - say, basketball, hockey, or baseball, I think most would agree that those sports have seen their videogame representations improve significantly in that same timespan. NBA2k9 is in another dimension from 2k5, NHL gaming has seen NHL2009 and 2k9 make huge strides over their 2005 counterparts, and MLB The Show is similarly above-and-beyond any 2005 offering in the baseball game genre. Only football, in its college and pro forms, has remained stagnated over the past 5 years.

I think we all know (or can take an educated guess) as to why that is, and it goes without saying that most on this forum agree that having only one developer make football games has hurt the genre. I'd be interested to hear any dissenting opinions, but it seems to me that it's a pretty open-and-shut discussion, if the question is really "is videogame football better off since the exclusivity deal?". Obviously, the answer is a resounding "no". You can let your imagination run wild with how unbelievable the games would be by now had 2k kept continuing to move their game forward into the next generation (and how good Madden would be right now if they had 2k nipping at their heels), but it's all ultimately for naught. I said back in 2004 (in this very forum) that we would never see a non-EA NFL videogame ever again, and at this point it does not appear I will be proven wrong. EA basically IS the football videogame market at this point, and has as much leverage as the NFL as of today, meaning there's absolutely no reason to believe the exclusivity deal won't continue into perpetuity. It's presumably been profitable for both parties, which in the end is the only thing that matters (although we delude ourselves into thinking they care, EA - like any corporation - serves one master: their shareholders).

I guess the only real question we can ask is, are you happy with Madden right now? That is ultimately the only assessment we can make of football games in the past 5 years, since it's been the only game the past 5 years. Any other question is, sadly, irrelevant. No non-EA football game will ever be released in the forseeable future.

[wheelman990]

Re: Football, 5 years after.

I agree with the original op. The game really hasnt made much stride over 5 years. Is it better then madden 2005, I think so. But its not by much, and is the first year I felt Madden didnt go backwards from last gen. I know many people say its the devs first year give them a chance. But its been 5 years, and EA has had every chance to release a ground breaking game. I cant personally use the faithful but its a new tram, wait till next year statement, because history has shown this leads to more disapointment. Hopefully, we are playing fresh football games in 5 years from now. I cant look at the same annimations for another year.

[swaldo]

Re: Football, 5 years after.

I guess the only real question we can ask is, are you happy with Madden right now? That is ultimately the only assessment we can make of football games in the past 5 years, since it's been the only game the past 5 years. Any other question is, sadly, irrelevant. No non-EA football game will ever be released in the forseeable future.

Great read and is the first time in awhile I've seen a post which didn't include the words "fanboy, troll, or *****." The bottom line is that it's disgusting to think where football gaming could be right now, and all we can do is sit here and suck on it.

[Paytonsplace]

Re: Football, 5 years after.

Great Post Pieta. You have a good memory. Gameday was the first out of the gate with 3-D graphics in a football game. And you are also right about the Madden team claiming it could not be done on the PS. That right there was a HUGE step forward. And we've not seen that magnitude of change and innovation in several years.

Unlike yourself, I was not initially impressed with the 2K series. It took awhile for me to get past the whole "It can't be better than Madden" attitude I had. Indeed, as you point out, Madden gave a lot to the football gamer in the early 1990s. Even the whole field perspective (looking down the field in the direction of the endzone) was an innovation. Madden had earned my loyalty for some time because of things like that. I'd become loyal to Madden not football gaming.

Your idea to look at past periods such as 2000-2005 is compelling. That period, as you demonstrate, really was a great time for the advancement of the hobby.

What motivated me to make my original post is kind off complicated. I'll explain. My first child was born in 2004. That was a very busy year. I bought Madden 2005 and found I could complete slants all the way downfield and score just about every time so I did not play it to much after that. Later I bought NFL2K5 ($20 so why not). However I never really sat down and played it. There was no time.

Flash forward to today. I'm very disappointed with Madden '10 (If you like it then I am happy for you). Instead of slants, now I can pass flats all the way down field. Nothing had really changed. So I decided to give NFL2K5 the chance I never gave it. I'm not trying to start a fight, and this is just my own opinion, but I think the game is better than Madden '10. I actually think that this game on a last gen system is better. I can type at length to support my claim and if you wish me to I will. However that really isn't the point of my post. Because my experience got me thinking. Has our hobby really advanced in the last 5 years? That is, is the period from 2006-2009 just as good as, say, 2000-2005, with respect to progress and innovation? Sadly, I'd say no. For example, when NFL2K5 offers me a choice for what I want to challenge on a close play and in Madden 10 I can not say what I want to challenge, well then what does that say?

The rate at which football gaming is or is not innovating is something that I believe we, no matter whether you are a Madden or 2K fanboy, should all be concerned about. Some have chosen to express this concern by pursuing a dialogue with the Madden devs. However the success of that course of action is debatable. Where does that leave us? I don't know. But it disappoints me that it has come to this.

[SouthernBrick]

Re: Football, 5 years after.

I agree with everything you said. Very good post, probably the best one I've seen in a while.

[withauthority22]

Re: Football, 5 years after.

I dont even think all of the aspects of graphics in next gen madden are better. the awful grass and player models to name two things

[JJ Sticks]

Re: Football, 5 years after.

Great Post Pieta. You have a good memory. Gameday was the first out of the gate with 3-D graphics in a football game. And you are also right about the Madden team claiming it could not be done on the PS. That right there was a HUGE step forward. And we've not seen that magnitude of change and innovation in several years.

Unlike yourself, I was not initially impressed with the 2K series. It took awhile for me to get past the whole "It can't be better than Madden" attitude I had. Indeed, as you point out, Madden gave a lot to the football gamer in the early 1990s. Even the whole field perspective (looking down the field in the direction of the endzone) was an innovation. Madden had earned my loyalty for some time because of things like that. I'd become loyal to Madden not football gaming.

Your idea to look at past periods such as 2000-2005 is compelling. That period, as you demonstrate, really was a great time for the advancement of the hobby.

What motivated me to make my original post is kind off complicated. I'll explain. My first child was born in 2004. That was a very busy year. I bought Madden 2005 and found I could complete slants all the way downfield and score just about every time so I did not play it to much after that. Later I bought NFL2K5 ($20 so why not). However I never really sat down and played it. There was no time.

Flash forward to today. I'm very disappointed with Madden '10 (If you like it then I am happy for you). Instead of slants, now I can pass flats all the way down field. Nothing had really changed. So I decided to give NFL2K5 the chance I never gave it. I'm not trying to start a fight, and this is just my own opinion, but I think the game is better than Madden '10. I actually think that this game on a last gen system is better. I can type at length to support my claim and if you wish me to I will. However that really isn't the point of my post. Because my experience got me thinking. Has our hobby really advanced in the last 5 years? That is, is the period from 2006-2009 just as good as, say, 2000-2005, with respect to progress and innovation? Sadly, I'd say no. For example, when NFL2K5 offers me a choice for what I want to challenge on a close play and in Madden 10 I can not say what I want to challenge, well then what does that say?

The rate at which football gaming is or is not innovating is something that I believe we, no matter whether you are a Madden or 2K fanboy, should all be concerned about. Some have chosen to express this concern by pursuing a dialogue with the Madden devs. However the success of that course of action is debatable. Where does that leave us? I don't know. But it disappoints me that it has come to this.

Good thing those EA guys went on vacation...if I were them I wouldn't want to see this, ouch.