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Quote: Originally Posted by Madden Head

This is the problem with progression. It's all a matter of opinion. It's subjective. I would say that Matt Cassel did start the season as a "70." You can't tell me that he played "like an 85" in week 1 after Brady went down. Cassel got better week after week, and he got better pretty quickly. One honest question is if NE is or isn't cheating, but that is another topic I don't want to talk about here. Steve Young is a better question/example for progression. Some want to say that Young was already a 90+ player all along. I would argue that if that were the case, why did he play so poorly for so long in the begining. It wasn't until "the run" against the Vikings that 49ers fans really started to believe in Young. The same is true for Wess Welker. You can't possibly tell me that Wess entered the leauge as a 93, or what ever he is, WR. He was undrafted, cut by the Chargers and traded by the Dolphins. Now, to be fair, when Bill was asked why he traded for Welker, Bill said "When we played the Dolphins we couldn't cover him, not even with two guys. I figured if we couldn't beat him we had better try and et him." Now this isn't the exact quote but the best I remember it from a post game interview on ESPN. I would say that there is a combination of legit progression combined with perception of how well they play. On the flip side, some players just fit a system and can excell in that system well beyond thier true abilities. If Ruben Droughns [spelling] can run for over 1,000 yards as a Bronco doesn't make him a good back, it was a case of a great Broncos line and system. Was he a 90-ish player, or was he a 70/80-ish player playing above his true skill level? I would say the latter. This all was talked about months and months ago in a very good thread and the general idea was that we should have a system similar to wht we have right now. Potential and production should both play a factor. However, in my opinion, we should also have to look at our coaching staff and have to do a true weekly prep in franchise mode. How good your coaching staff is should alter how well all your players progress/regress in a big way. There is a reason that Ray Lewis is a gret linebacker and so is Patrick Willis. that reason: Mike Singletary. Singletary took great raw talent and helped mold it into great NFL hall of fame talent. Who helped shape Singletary? Buddy Ryan, who's two sons Rex and Rob Ryan are also very good defensive coaches. If you have bad coaches on your roster, your players shouldn't improve very well. If you have great coaches they should improve to the best of their ability. Right now in Madden you can't honestly sit a rookie QB and have/expect him to progress. You need to put him out there. In real life though many people talk about how rarely do Rookie QBs start and do well. This is why Matt Ryan, Joe Flacco, and Big Ben have been such big stories. They are the exception not the rule. Where would Rich Gannon and Steve Young and Matt Cassel be in Madden with a production based only system? This is why potential is important as well. In summery, Progression should have 4 equal parts. Coaching staff, weekly/off season preperation set by the user/computer, potential to set the cap/range, and production. This is also why we need to see the return of the "playing time" stat. When player gets playing time [games played/started, what ever] they get a chance to prove how good they are.

I feel I have to clarify: I'm not saying players can't improve. They can. And do. And some improve by leaps and bounds.

But take a guy like Young. Under PBP if he did "play so poorly for so long in the beginning," he would have regressed into a 40 OVR, and that would be that. But if progression were based on potential, he could put up bad stats, but still be improving, and eventually if his potential were high enough turn himself into a very nice player (which he obviously did). Exact same situation with Welker.

One final point: players in Madden don't need to "prove how good they are." We know how good they are. It's right next to their name. Now I do think that OVR should be hidden, which would bring 'proving one's self' into play (as a player gets more PT, his OVR would not change, but it would be revealed).