Madden 2006 Had Perfect Progression

[jip4]

Re: Madden 2006 Had Perfect Progression

This is the problem with progression. It's all a matter of opinion. It's subjective. I would say that Matt Cassel did start the season as a "70." You can't tell me that he played "like an 85" in week 1 after Brady went down. Cassel got better week after week, and he got better pretty quickly. One honest question is if NE is or isn't cheating, but that is another topic I don't want to talk about here.

Steve Young is a better question/example for progression. Some want to say that Young was already a 90+ player all along. I would argue that if that were the case, why did he play so poorly for so long in the begining. It wasn't until "the run" against the Vikings that 49ers fans really started to believe in Young.

The same is true for Wess Welker. You can't possibly tell me that Wess entered the leauge as a 93, or what ever he is, WR. He was undrafted, cut by the Chargers and traded by the Dolphins. Now, to be fair, when Bill was asked why he traded for Welker, Bill said "When we played the Dolphins we couldn't cover him, not even with two guys. I figured if we couldn't beat him we had better try and et him." Now this isn't the exact quote but the best I remember it from a post game interview on ESPN. I would say that there is a combination of legit progression combined with perception of how well they play.

On the flip side, some players just fit a system and can excell in that system well beyond thier true abilities. If Ruben Droughns [spelling] can run for over 1,000 yards as a Bronco doesn't make him a good back, it was a case of a great Broncos line and system. Was he a 90-ish player, or was he a 70/80-ish player playing above his true skill level? I would say the latter.

This all was talked about months and months ago in a very good thread and the general idea was that we should have a system similar to wht we have right now. Potential and production should both play a factor. However, in my opinion, we should also have to look at our coaching staff and have to do a true weekly prep in franchise mode. How good your coaching staff is should alter how well all your players progress/regress in a big way. There is a reason that Ray Lewis is a gret linebacker and so is Patrick Willis. that reason: Mike Singletary. Singletary took great raw talent and helped mold it into great NFL hall of fame talent. Who helped shape Singletary? Buddy Ryan, who's two sons Rex and Rob Ryan are also very good defensive coaches.

If you have bad coaches on your roster, your players shouldn't improve very well. If you have great coaches they should improve to the best of their ability. Right now in Madden you can't honestly sit a rookie QB and have/expect him to progress. You need to put him out there. In real life though many people talk about how rarely do Rookie QBs start and do well. This is why Matt Ryan, Joe Flacco, and Big Ben have been such big stories. They are the exception not the rule.

Where would Rich Gannon and Steve Young and Matt Cassel be in Madden with a production based only system? This is why potential is important as well.

In summery, Progression should have 4 equal parts. Coaching staff, weekly/off season preperation set by the user/computer, potential to set the cap/range, and production. This is also why we need to see the return of the "playing time" stat. When player gets playing time [games played/started, what ever] they get a chance to prove how good they are.

I feel I have to clarify: I'm not saying players can't improve. They can. And do. And some improve by leaps and bounds.

But take a guy like Young. Under PBP if he did "play so poorly for so long in the beginning," he would have regressed into a 40 OVR, and that would be that. But if progression were based on potential, he could put up bad stats, but still be improving, and eventually if his potential were high enough turn himself into a very nice player (which he obviously did). Exact same situation with Welker.

One final point: players in Madden don't need to "prove how good they are." We know how good they are. It's right next to their name. Now I do think that OVR should be hidden, which would bring 'proving one's self' into play (as a player gets more PT, his OVR would not change, but it would be revealed).

[jip4]

Re: Madden 2006 Had Perfect Progression

See that's the thing though, I had J.J. Arrington as my RB back in Madden 06. He didn't increase in speed and trucking, but his awareness, his carry, his catch (I used him as a receiver well) would go up until he got to age 27/28 and he stopped progressing. He ended up at something like 87 OVR (mostly due to awareness) and he wasn't Adrian Peterson because how can you improve how fast you are? Adrian Peterson has ridiculous speed and trucking that gives him a huge boost to factor into his 97 OVR rating. But why can't a WR keep progressing his catch rating if he is catching the ball well? I'm not saying make him a 99 OVR.

You keep flipping cause and effect.

[Glorious Arc]

Re: Madden 2006 Had Perfect Progression

See that's the thing though, I had J.J. Arrington as my RB back in Madden 06. He didn't increase in speed and trucking, but his awareness, his carry, his catch (I used him as a receiver well) would go up until he got to age 27/28 and he stopped progressing. He ended up at something like 87 OVR (mostly due to awareness) and he wasn't Adrian Peterson because how can you improve how fast you are? Adrian Peterson has ridiculous speed and trucking that gives him a huge boost to factor into his 97 OVR rating. But why can't a WR keep progressing his catch rating if he is catching the ball well? I'm not saying make him a 99 OVR.

We are saying that players do not just keep progressing IRL. Like I said before if you allow even the non-physical skills to keep progressing just because your player is able to put up numbers then you are going to make a system where HOFers exist but IRL they would never turn out like that.

I know I have bad hands and I dont have the best awareness. But if I have Manning or Brady throwing the ball to me I could probably catch 40-60 passes a year. Under your system, I could develop hands and awareness like Jerry Rice just because I was catching 40-60 passes. How realistic is that?(again if I had the potential to get better hands/awareness IRL I would need a good coach and bust my butt every day to improve my skills) I would then see a probability that I could produce better numbers on the field in the same situation as I did the year before when I had worse stats.

[roolz]

Re: Madden 2006 Had Perfect Progression

Real life and Madden are getting mixed up a bit too much here... Madden is so far off being a realistic representation of the game, that its pointless.

So with that in mind... I have success with an F rated player - the Madden system has logic which tells me that, no this is not right he is not able to progress.. even though, this is a game and because I did well with him, he should be able to progress.

Its like not letting you complete Call of Duty 4 because in real life, 1 person cant take out a whole army of terrorists....

GAME, MADDEN IS A GAME - The ratings/potential system have to make sense to a gamer, at the minute they do not reward a gamer for being successful they reward a gamer for being able to sign an A rated potential player..... that is not a challenge.

If you want to harp back to real life, PLAYERS DO NOT HAVE A POTENTIAL CEILING. If I told a player that he would be no better than a scrub, yet he turns out to be a career player in the NFL or whatever sport... it happens, humans can over achieve, humans can learn, humans can become better in a team... im not saying they cannot regress, or do this all on their own - but Madden has to comphrehend that fact if it wants to take a Real Life stance to all this.

Progression has to be a risk/reward factor - that is what games are about... if progression is set in stone and what you do/dont do does not affect it, where is the fun?

[Glorious Arc]

Re: Madden 2006 Had Perfect Progression

Real life and Madden are getting mixed up a bit too much here... Madden is so far off being a realistic representation of the game, that its pointless.

So with that in mind... I have success with an F rated player - the Madden system has logic which tells me that, no this is not right he is not able to progress.. even though, this is a game and because I did well with him, he should be able to progress.

Its like not letting you complete Call of Duty 4 because in real life, 1 person cant take out a whole army of terrorists....

GAME, MADDEN IS A GAME - The ratings/potential system have to make sense to a gamer, at the minute they do not reward a gamer for being successful they reward a gamer for being able to sign an A rated potential player..... that is not a challenge.

If you want to harp back to real life, PLAYERS DO NOT HAVE A POTENTIAL CEILING. If I told a player that he would be no better than a scrub, yet he turns out to be a career player in the NFL or whatever sport... it happens, humans can over achieve, humans can learn, humans can become better in a team... im not saying they cannot regress, or do this all on their own - but Madden has to comphrehend that fact if it wants to take a Real Life stance to all this.

Progression has to be a risk/reward factor - that is what games are about... if progression is set in stone and what you do/dont do does not affect it, where is the fun?

Can I be your agent when you become the next Tom Brady or Manning? By your logic then you can keep improving your skills no matter what and you will become a HOF....Wait...If that was true then why are there less then 6 billion people in the HOF itself...? When in fact there are less then 300 people because they are the only players who had the potential to become great and busted butt before games in practice to produce the stats they did.

People have a max potential to how good they can become otherwise everyone could become a HOF if they tried hard enough and if you cant realize that then I dont know what to say.

[roolz]

Re: Madden 2006 Had Perfect Progression

Can I be your agent when you become the next Tom Brady or Manning? By your logic then you can keep improving your skills no matter what and you will become a HOF....Wait...If that was true then why are there less then 6 billion people in the HOF itself...? When in fact there are less then 300 people because they are the only players who had the potential to become great and busted butt before games in practice to produce the stats they did.

People have a max potential to how good they can become otherwise everyone could become a HOF if they tried hard enough and if you cant realize that then I dont know what to say.

Yet again you blabber on about real life?

Dont you read anything, or are you too far up jips arse to actually take on someones else point?

Read the post again, understand it - then respond... simple.

[Glorious Arc]

Re: Madden 2006 Had Perfect Progression

Yet again you blabber on about real life?

Dont you read anything, or are you too far up jips arse to actually take on someones else point?

Read the post again, understand it - then respond... simple.

Cute

I responded to your thought process about real life players not having a ceiling and then you go off like that.

Madden is an NFL simulation. Simulation is defined as...

Simulation is the imitation of some real thing, state of affairs, or process. The act of simulating something generally entails representing certain key characteristics or behaviors of a selected physical or abstract system.

We have flight simulations, combat simulations, ect ect that reflect exactly what happens IRL. Madden is not an exception if it wants to be known as an NFL simulation then it needs to step up to the plate. Otherwise, it will just be a video game of magical players in the NFL growing out of no where. Currently, madden claims it is an NFL simulation but obviously it is not. They need to get their stuff straight about how they want to represent their product.

Now, read and respond in a civil manner instead of acting like a child....simple right?

[reyes the roof]

Re: Madden 2006 Had Perfect Progression

Its like not letting you complete Call of Duty 4 because in real life, 1 person cant take out a whole army of terrorists....

Call of Duty doesn't advertise that everything we see during a real war, we will see in the game

[Faizon]

Re: Madden 2006 Had Perfect Progression

Why would you ever want speed to go up +6 ? Most players are as fast as they are ever going to be right after college. If anything their speed should go down.

No, speed would only go up if you improved by like 6 points overall.

If you went from a 60 to a 66 your speed would go from 84 to 85.

Most guys could only improve by 2 speed over their lifetime, but for some reason MLB's could turn into track stars over time. I think EA did that to compensate for poor Awareness logic.

[British Bronco]

Re: Madden 2006 Had Perfect Progression

Roolz - you ask where's the fun in drafting an A rated player?

Well that's why many of us like playing franchise - we look at combine results we scout possible players and we try and uncover the next Terrell Davis or Karl Mecklenberg in the latter rounds etc. That is fun.

Now could that process be better in the current version of Madden? Of course. And it's a real shame training camp modules have been dropped that allow Madden players to increase stats over time. That is fun also.

But your fundamental premise is deeply flawed. You want to improve your players by throwing them the ball all the time. And by hitting the spin button at the right moment etc. This is utterly bogus.

Just out of curiosity - and this goes out to Team Builder too - under your proposed performance based progression system how do you intend to increase the skills of each of your offensive linemen?

[Glorious Arc]

Re: Madden 2006 Had Perfect Progression

To add onto this, how would a player like James Harrison be able to grow like he did IRL? His first 3 seasons were barely enough to consider him a backup. By the time he started to develop his skills and produce he was already 30 years old. In your system he would have never developed into anything at all because he did not produce and he was not young when he finally did produce.

[Madden Head]

Re: Madden 2006 Had Perfect Progression

One final point: players in Madden don't need to "prove how good they are." We know how good they are. It's right next to their name. Now I do think that OVR should be hidden, which would bring 'proving one's self' into play (as a player gets more PT, his OVR would not change, but it would be revealed).

That's it. That's the way it should be, like real life. Potential and overall should be letter grades. Always. We can argue how good Brady and Manning are, but in Madden they Have Manning rated higher than Brady, so he is better. I disagree. Brady will or will not prove this this year after his injury. With Letter grades EA can hide the overal rating and just give both an A grade. I really like the idea that that letter grade is a 10 point range [though I don't know if that is 100% true]:

A: 90-99
B: 80-89
C: 70-79
D: 60-69
F: 59 and below

If you are 59 or below, you are a bad player. If you are 38OVR you are worse than a 59OVR and a good deal worse, but it doesn't really matter because if the 59OVR player progresses he will move up to a D player but the 38 will progress 6 points and still be an F until they pass 59OVR. Some may get made that their 38OVR player progressed for 3 years [6 points each, 6x3=18+38=56] and still an F player, but that is because he has improved into a player that isn't god aweful, but a 56 is still bad. I still like the idea of having the number ratings of skills.

SIDE NOTE: Josh looman should write menus/logic/windows/what ever that sort position by relevant stats first and then irrelevant stats next. For example:

QB: THP, SAC, MAC, DAC, Play action, throw on the run, awareness, speed, acceleration, agility, strength, injury, thoughness, stamina, other stuff that isn't QB related.

Then if you go to A defensive linemen it should look like this:

DT: Strength, Speed, Acceleration, Agility, Hit Power, Block Shedding, Power move, Fineese Move, Tackle, Play Recognition, Pursuit, Man coverage, Zone coverage, Injury, Toughness, Stamina, other ratings.

I think you get the idea. Other ratings do matter, but mostly are irrelevant for most plays for that position. A DT run blocking strength and run blocking footwork should be important for an interception return or fumble recovery where he has to now block down field, but that hardly comes into play and doesn't alter my impression on if I should sign him or not, or start him or not. I should have to scroll for days to find the relevenat information. However that irrelevant information should be hidden as I may look at it and think, maybe he would be better at DE or OLB or even MLB [see Teddy Bruschi].

[kcarr]

Re: Madden 2006 Had Perfect Progression

also should work when you sign a Free Agent QB during the year. Say Jake Delhomme gets injured and he is out for 5 weeks, you go to sign Tim Rattay. Rattay should degress for a week, until he learns the system then let his attributes go back to where they were. You sign Rattay and he only practices for a week, he should be limited in knowledge.

I think this is somewhere where play learning could really help the game.

[reyes the roof]

Re: Madden 2006 Had Perfect Progression

Just out of curiosity - and this goes out to Team Builder too - under your proposed performance based progression system how do you intend to increase the skills of each of your offensive linemen?

You could make that argument for defensive tackles too, they don't typically put up big numbers, they mainly take up space and allow other guys to make plays. Same thing for a cornerback, more interceptions don't always equal a better cornerback, if nobody throws a single pass to the Raiders CB all season and he gets no picks, with this system he should regress

[roolz]

Re: Madden 2006 Had Perfect Progression

Cute

I responded to your thought process about real life players not having a ceiling and then you go off like that.

Madden is an NFL simulation. Simulation is defined as...

Simulation is the imitation of some real thing, state of affairs, or process. The act of simulating something generally entails representing certain key characteristics or behaviors of a selected physical or abstract system.

We have flight simulations, combat simulations, ect ect that reflect exactly what happens IRL. Madden is not an exception if it wants to be known as an NFL simulation then it needs to step up to the plate. Otherwise, it will just be a video game of magical players in the NFL growing out of no where. Currently, madden claims it is an NFL simulation but obviously it is not. They need to get their stuff straight about how they want to represent their product.

Now, read and respond in a civil manner instead of acting like a child....simple right?

Simulation? I thought Madden was a GAME?

Im looking at the box right now, there is no mention of a simulation..... as far as I am aware, it is a game - a SIMULATION would not have human input as far as 'playing games'... simulation's are run via a database program, using the relevant statistics to produce an outcome.... now as far as I am aware, I can control what happens on the field (to an extent) whilst playing my Madden GAME, me playing automatically overrides whatever a simulation can produce as the computer cannot factor in my input.... so we are back to talking about a game.

So lets go back to the question you are avoiding.... as a computer game, the progression of players should be based on a risk/reward factor which is generated in game, NOT because a developer has said 'Player A is rated at A potential and this is how he will turn out, no. matter, what.'