ACQB M10 Franchise Game Discussion/Ish-Talking Thread

[RogueHominid]

Re: ACQB M10 Franchise Game Discussion/Ish-Talking Thread

Where did you read that pursuit is tied into the roster update?

And as far as pick 6's go, are people in the league really that upset about them? If you don't throw an interception it can't get ran back on you. I've got 3 on the year, so it's not like I'm getting a ton every game.

Putting a limit on interception TD's? How exactly would we do that? If we get an interception are we supposed to just dive on the ground or something lol? I don't know man... I understand trying to make this as realistic as possible but I don't want to see things turned into major issues when they don't have to be.

I thought everyone knew that the pick-6 thing was tied to the roster. It's all over the boards from good sources and the devs themselves. I'm not the best at the search feature, so one of the more savvy members can post the link. It's clear as day that's the case, though.

As far as your experience goes, it's hard to generalize from that. You have Peyton Manning as your QB and have been fortunate enough not to see much of that this season. But the return for TD ratio is like 50%. Kasey has said earlier in the season that if he were not able to run so many back he would have lost 2 games.

If the dev team made this an immediate priority and put it in the opening day roster, that's enough proof for me that it needed to be done.

My point with the INT-TD rule was just that: we can't possibly make one. That would be silly. But we also probably can't afford to have the offensive pursuit stay as it is and not get frustrated with the way that skews the game over the course of several seasons.

Just as an example, the Raiders had 0 INT-TD last season in the NFL on 16 INT. Through 8 games this season, we have 3 TD already on 13 INT in 8 games. The ratio is definitely off, and when you factor in that people are still getting used to passing in this game and the league as a whole is throwing a ton of picks, you can see my point, I think, that there will be a cumulative impact that's negative.

[Pappy Knuckles]

Re: ACQB M10 Franchise Game Discussion/Ish-Talking Thread

I thought everyone knew that the pick-6 thing was tied to the roster. It's all over the boards from good sources and the devs themselves. I'm not the best at the search feature, so one of the more savvy members can post the link. It's clear as day that's the case, though.

As far as your experience goes, it's hard to generalize from that. You have Peyton Manning as your QB and have been fortunate enough not to see much of that this season. But the return for TD ratio is like 50%. Kasey has said earlier in the season that if he were not able to run so many back he would have lost 2 games.

If the dev team made this an immediate priority and put it in the opening day roster, that's enough proof for me that it needed to be done.

My point with the INT-TD rule was just that: we can't possibly make one. That would be silly. But we also probably can't afford to have the offensive pursuit stay as it is and not get frustrated with the way that skews the game over the course of several seasons.

Just as an example, the Raiders had 0 INT-TD last season in the NFL on 16 INT. Through 8 games this season, we have 3 TD already on 13 INT in 8 games. The ratio is definitely off, and when you factor in that people are still getting used to passing in this game and the league as a whole is throwing a ton of picks, you can see my point, I think, that there will be a cumulative impact that's negative.

I've had my fair share of games of throwing a ton of picks with Peyton Manning. Throwing picks and tackling the dude after he takes it from you are two completely different things. If guys are giving up a ton of returns they might need to work on wrapping the player up before he can make anything happen.

[Pappy Knuckles]

Re: ACQB M10 Franchise Game Discussion/Ish-Talking Thread

Oh yeah, when is the schedule being advanced?

[CreatineKasey]

Re: ACQB M10 Franchise Game Discussion/Ish-Talking Thread

AW, I created a spreadsheet of an offseason plan that just asks us to type the numbers into the cells and it does the math for us. I even have an area that adds up the CAP numbers for everyone so they just need to copy/paste the number into the area and it'll add everything up for them. I also have cells for CAP remaining and total CAP to give people an idea where they are at. If everyone personalized their spreadsheet it would manage the team for them.

.... remember it is just a rough draft.

What's your e-mail?

[RogueHominid]

Re: ACQB M10 Franchise Game Discussion/Ish-Talking Thread

Some league statistical data (league stats were compiled from profootballreference.com and tabulated team by team):

Through 8 games, we have seen 69 INTs returned for TDs. The total number of INT thus far is 330. That's a 21% success ratio. Over the course of a full season we're on pace for 660 INT and 138 INT-TD.
Clearly my original estimate was off, but as you'll see, even these numbers are inflated from the norm by a good bit.

The entire NFL had 52 INTs returned for TDs in 16 games. The total number of INT for the league for the year was 465. That's an 11% rate of success.

Two things stand out:
1) We're on pace for 200 more picks per season than normal;
2) We're on pace for a fully doubled percentage of interceptions returned for touchdowns.

The argument that we should just switch and tackle better belies the statistical facts, at least in my view. Once again, we don't have to commit to a course of action, but it seems to me that if the dev team addressed this issue (and I, contrary to Kasey, have noticed a difference, only having 1 INT online returned for a 6 since the patch where I would have had 3-4 before in the same situations), it'd be hard for us to act like there's no issue at all.

As it seems to me, defensive players are able to move at good speed in the direction of the endzone right away, but offensive players often appear unaware of the INT and don't pursue well when they do figure the situation out.

Again, just fodder for discussion here.

[RogueHominid]

Re: ACQB M10 Franchise Game Discussion/Ish-Talking Thread

I've had my fair share of games of throwing a ton of picks with Peyton Manning. Throwing picks and tackling the dude after he takes it from you are two completely different things. If guys are giving up a ton of returns they might need to work on wrapping the player up before he can make anything happen.

See above league-wide statistics. The doubled numbers suggest that either the whole league minus you has stick skill issues when it comes to tackling defenders after picks, or that it's easier than it should be by a margin of 100% to take picks to the house .

[jyoung]

Re: ACQB M10 Franchise Game Discussion/Ish-Talking Thread

There's no doubt that INT returns are broken in this game and the only way to fix it is to restart with the new roster update.

I think it's a big enough factor in games to warrant the reset.

That said, I would like to at least finish out our season and then make the switch to the new rosters + new salary sytem for year two.

The reason INT numbers are so high in Madden is because all defensive players (including linemen and LBs) have ridiculously good hands/jumping ability.

Linemen and LBs simply make way too many INTs in Madden that they would have stonehanded in real life.

Case in point:

I have Champ Bailey and Brian Dawkins on my team, yet my two INT leaders are the MLB DJ Williams and the LE Elvis Dumervil.

Champ Bailey has actually stonehanded more picks for me than DJ Williams has.

[Pappy Knuckles]

Re: ACQB M10 Franchise Game Discussion/Ish-Talking Thread

We are still playing a video game at the end of the day. Our stats may not be exactly what you'd see during the course of a real NFL season, but I still don't feel like it's as big a deal as you're making it.

How many of those interception returns were against CPU opponents? Where on the field did they throw the interception? Could the user have stopped the TD if they played it differently? I feel like looking at the numbers alone isn't everything.

With the exception of Autumn, who has an issue with the number of interceptions being returned for TD's? Please say something because I'd really like to hear more input on this being as horrible as it's being made out to be. I'm not saying it can't be better, but it's playable to me. Maybe I glanced over the posts, but I haven't seen a lot of people complaining. Kasey said he couldn't even notice a real difference in pursuit during the games that he's played. If we restart and still see a ton of INT's being returned, what happens then?

[jyoung]

Re: ACQB M10 Franchise Game Discussion/Ish-Talking Thread

It made a pretty big difference in the game I played with bayern last week.

My MLB made some crazy superman pick right in the middle of the field, then somehow was able to make to the corner and outrun everyone to the endzone, even though he's only rated 82 in speed.

[CreatineKasey]

Re: ACQB M10 Franchise Game Discussion/Ish-Talking Thread

We are still playing a video game at the end of the day. Our stats may not be exactly what you'd see during the course of a real NFL season, but I still don't feel like it's as big a deal as you're making it.

How many of those interception returns were against CPU opponents? Where on the field did they throw the interception? Could the user have stopped the TD if they played it differently? I feel like looking at the numbers alone isn't everything.

With the exception of Autumn, who has an issue with the number of interceptions being returned for TD's? Please say something because I'd really like to hear more input on this being as horrible as it's being made out to be. I'm not saying it can't be better, but it's playable to me. Maybe I glanced over the posts, but I haven't seen a lot of people complaining. Kasey said he couldn't even notice a real difference in pursuit during the games that he's played. If we restart and still see a ton of INT's being returned, what happens then?

I see it as a result of people slinging the ball into ridiculous coverages right at defenders running full speed at them, and a product of people going to the flats very often with the perception of them being broken. INT's in the flats are automatic INT-TD's in real life.

I do see the pursuit issue and if there is a noticeable difference with the new rosters I'm not opposed to restarting at some point. I just don't want to do this on unfounded grounds. It is a big deal because people have put many hours into this league and it'd be unfair to take away what they've accomplished without a very good reason.

[mKoz26]

Re: ACQB M10 Franchise Game Discussion/Ish-Talking Thread

I'm only seeing too many picks returned for touchdowns against the CPU. As a user, it is easy to take a good angle with the closest man to the ball and make the tackle. I think the number of interceptions is a bit high, but that's more on us owners learning the game.

With that said, I don't care if we restart or not, because each side has its advantages and disadvantages.

And to the linemen pick issue Weeman brings up, I honestly have no clue what you're talking about. I have never intercepted a pass with a lineman. Never. I really don't see that as an issue at all.

[RogueHominid]

Re: ACQB M10 Franchise Game Discussion/Ish-Talking Thread

I still don't feel like it's as big a deal as you're making it.

How many of those interception returns were against CPU opponents? Where on the field did they throw the interception? Could the user have stopped the TD if they played it differently? I feel like looking at the numbers alone isn't everything.

With the exception of Autumn, who has an issue with the number of interceptions being returned for TD's?

Well, just to make sure we don't get it twisted, let me clarify a few things.

It's not that I have an issue with the number of picks for TDs; it's that I read and watched developer blogs about the newest roster improvements and patch and thought we should discuss what a restart after the patch and with the new roster could or could not do for our league experience.

The developers are the ones who seemed to have an issue with it, as they're the ones who put out a roster update with specific adjustments to address this issue. I suppose I'm just trusting here that they know what they're talking about, and I don't see reason to doubt that belief.

Moreover, I am not making a big deal of it so much as I'm posting the statistics so people can determine for themselves whether or not it's a big deal on the basis of the hard numbers rather than impressions.

After doing the numbers, it does look like there's a big discrepancy between the percentages we're getting and normal ones. But if that's something people want to live with, that's fine too.

As for the time invested, etc., I certainly respect the weight of that. I've played all 8 games too, plus some practice hours. The concern for the league is whether the roster update will give us a big enough fix for the long haul to justify the sacrifice of 8 weeks. I think we have a super group here and will probably last all 10 seasons, even if we have to slow down the advancement schedule from time to time. So it's a long-term issue we're talking about.

For my own team, I've actually won more games already than I thought I would all year, and have pretty good pick numbers, most of Campbell's coming from DBpress's tenure. Plus the Raiders got worse in overall rating after the update.

So it's really not in my interest from that perspective; I really just want to make sure we discuss the options and make a good decision for the long-term viability of the league.

I'll just create a poll, we can vote, no need to post, and look at the results.

And if the games are all played, I'll advance shortly.

Good luck to all in week 9!

[bigfnjoe96]

Re: ACQB M10 Franchise Game Discussion/Ish-Talking Thread

Been trying to get with greazy. I don't have room on my FL right now so I can't accept his FI. I left him a message that I will jump-on @7:30. If we don't play tonight, I can't play until Thursday Night because I'm going-out of town on business

[bigfnjoe96]

Re: ACQB M10 Franchise Game Discussion/Ish-Talking Thread

Alright game-on with Cowboys...

[teambayern]

Re: ACQB M10 Franchise Game Discussion/Ish-Talking Thread

Pappy, I definitely have a problem with INT returns. I found myself having responses to a lot of different things you and others have commented on since I last viewed the boards, so here's my take on various statements:

The pursuit by the offense following an INT is not a big deal.
In my experience, it has been a big deal. The problem is that the entire offense collapses toward the point where the ball carrier currently is, instead of pursuing to the point where he is running to. A classic example is my INT vs. Djw (that won me the game) or the one against me by Biffchan (that won him the game), both of which involved deep pass INT's, where the entire sideline parted like the red sea for an unchallenged TD. In my experience, there are two types of INT's: those where the guy is immediately tackled by the WR, and TD's. That's why I feel the pursuit is such a significant issue.

This is the result of people slinging the ball into coverage too many times.
I don't see this being the case. This explains why we have a lot of INT's (I know I was and still am forcing passes I shouldn't be), but doesn't address why we have so many going all the way back.

INT's in the flats SHOULD be TD's.
Totally agreed. I'd add out routes to that list, among many others. Those are not the INT's being returned for TD's that I and others are upset about.

This is only a problem against CPU teams. Manually tackle and there's no issue.
As Weeman and Biffchan can tell you, this is THE big reason I think this is an issue (I whine about it a lot when I see it happen, sorry guys). Manually tackling is of course the only way to reliably bring down a ballcarrier in this or any game, so it's not that I think we should expect to rely on the CPU bringing him down. The problem is that the player switching logic doesn't give you the guy way up field, it gives you the guy in the best position to make the tackle, which in most cases is the closest guy to the ballcarrier. Unfortunately, that guy is usually running full speed in the wrong direction by the time you get control. Keep hitting switch player and you'll see it rinse and repeat over and over again until the TD. This is why it's so infuriating, and why guys not only get TD's, but unchallenged, unaccosted TD's.

But this is still a video game guys, we're never going to get super real stats so let's just stick with it.
I agree that we shouldn't necessarily be worried about the stats. It's the on-field action where you see HOW these stats are being made to happen that make it an issue. If 11% of the time the pursuit bug happened, I'd still say we should get rid of it. It's how it happens, not the result. Ed Reed, for example, should be able to return INT's for TD's on a fairly regular basis, but he shouldn't be able to waltz downfield without anyone near him as they all run right past. If we had a problem where the CB's were just too fast, or broke too many tackles, I wouldn't care nearly as much. But the spectacle of an entire team running away from the player is jarring to say the least. It also impacts wins and losses in a big way ( I've had 2 of my games decided on this and another where it played a role), so I feel it goes to core gameplay, not just statistical authenticity.

I haven't seen a problem.
This is clearly something that at least a few of you have said, so I was thinking about why that would be. The first thing that comes to my mind is you guys are probably better passers than I am. You don't throw as many INT's (especially those of you with Ben and Peyton) and you don't have as many opportunities to see it. Granted if I threw less INT's, I wouldn't have as much of a problem either, but you could say the same about the field goal glitch. If I had a better passing attack, I wouldn't have to settle for FG's and wouldn't see as many holding calls, but clearly that doesn't wash. I feel the same way about this: just because you can avoid it by being better overall, doesn't mean it isn't a problem. Furthermore, we have a fix for this, so why not use it if we plan on playing this for the next few months at least? I get the lost work thing, I really do, but are we going to give up improved gameplay for months over it? If people are really tied to their teams, could we agree to play this season and next or something, and then restart? I just don't want to be stuck with a problem for months when there is a fix.

The fix is negligible.
I haven't tested this yet and can't comment. But if it is negligible, we shouldn't restart for it, plain and simple.


EDIT: Autumn and I ran a practice game to test this where I repeatedly turned the ball over in new and interesting ways (right, Autumn? ) and the results were significant. It's not negligible in my opinion.


These are just my thoughts, and I'm willing to do whatever the league wants. I don't mean to rant here or say it breaks the game because it doesn't at all. It's just a nagging problem that I see as significant, and I wanted to make sure that those of you who aren't seeing it can maybe get my perspective on things.