"Pinch" and "Spread OL Assignment and the Run Game

[RogueHominid]

For you experienced players out there, I'm wondering if there's a benefit to these line calls in the running game.

I've experimented some in the pass game, but noticed that the A-gap overload in the run game does not necessarily get registered by the O in a default line call (same for pass plays, and as it should be).

Does any of you know if a "Pinch" call will draw the focus to the A and B gaps and consistently target players in those areas?

Do "slide" L/R work as effectively or better?

And any input on the spread call logic would be appreciated as a bonus.

Thanks in advance!

[LBzrule]

Re: "Pinch" and "Spread OL Assignment and the Run Game

Some people swear by it. I don't. Some guys say you have to make the calls based on the lineman close to the Center. I'm not sure. I think a lot of it is placebo. I think it does work on some plays, but I also think the blocking on some other plays is just terrible. Like most of the power-o plays Do not use these plays. Someone on defense will bust through every single time unless you use motion. And I hate motioning a WR or TE to a certain spot just to try to get this run play to work because then if you don't do it for your pass plays then you tip the person on defense off that you are running. But if you do it on pass plays you take a receiver out of the passing game. Mehhhh.

I've also given up on toss plays. All the person on D has to do is run way outside and the blockers will ignore them. Then turn back in and make the tackle. So that really leaves dives and counters, off tackle and that's all you can run really.

[LBzrule]

Re: "Pinch" and "Spread OL Assignment and the Run Game

To your questions.


Pinch does nothing that I can see. What you are calling spread = aggressive. From what I've read aggressive is good on Straight ahead runs like FB Dive, or any dive play for that matter. But I've seen plays get blown up just like they would if you didn't use it so I don't know.

[CreatineKasey]

Re: "Pinch" and "Spread OL Assignment and the Run Game

Yeah, remember there is a chance that it does nothing at all in the run game. I mean, it is supposed to be for pass blocking so who really knows if they went through and coded logic for every run play to tie in with their pass block calls. I am personally more inclined to say they don't matter on runs, but who knows.

[Pared]

Re: "Pinch" and "Spread OL Assignment and the Run Game

Some people swear by it. I don't. Some guys say you have to make the calls based on the lineman close to the Center. I'm not sure. I think a lot of it is placebo. I think it does work on some plays, but I also think the blocking on some other plays is just terrible. Like most of the power-o plays Do not use these plays. Someone on defense will bust through every single time unless you use motion. And I hate motioning a WR or TE to a certain spot just to try to get this run play to work because then if you don't do it for your pass plays then you tip the person on defense off that you are running. But if you do it on pass plays you take a receiver out of the passing game. Mehhhh.

I've also given up on toss plays. All the person on D has to do is run way outside and the blockers will ignore them. Then turn back in and make the tackle. So that really leaves dives and counters, off tackle and that's all you can run really.

There are ways to counter those though, especially with the line shifts.

Some plays don't work at times... but to me, that's the balance they are trying to implement. I don't like how they do it mind you... some guys just don't cover their man properly and just flat out don't "hunt" out their assignments... but you can def. get these plays to work.

As well as they should? No, but they can definitely be successful and it is certainly possible to get that seal.

[marcus82]

Re: "Pinch" and "Spread OL Assignment and the Run Game

from what i can tell line adjustments do work. I haven't been able to figure out if pinch and aggressive line audibles change run blocking but left and right sure do. I really only use them against 3-4 defenses.

shiftin the line has been the difference in my guard reaching a MLB on a run up the gut and my tackle reaching on OLB on an outside run play. I've found against the 3-4 if idon't R/L shift my line the outside LB can come off the edge free and blow up the play. it doesn't work every time but going into practice mode i see a noticeable change in blocking assignments

[CreatineKasey]

Re: "Pinch" and "Spread OL Assignment and the Run Game

There are ways to counter those though, especially with the line shifts.

Some plays don't work at times... but to me, that's the balance they are trying to implement. I don't like how they do it mind you... some guys just don't cover their man properly and just flat out don't "hunt" out their assignments... but you can def. get these plays to work.

As well as they should? No, but they can definitely be successful and it is certainly possible to get that seal.

I can get tosses and Power-O's to work well, they just sometimes totally break down. They seem to be higher risk/reward runs... especially the power O. I fear running that one consistently because of it.

When running the ball on tosses, you can lay off the burst early and if someone does what you say - run around your blockers - hit the gas and burn right up past him for a nice gain.

[Pared]

Re: "Pinch" and "Spread OL Assignment and the Run Game

That's exactly what I do, especially on tosses. You have to stay behind your man until the right moment, then hit the hole.

It's the best counter to the defensive counter. When they overpursue, cut straight up. There's typically a space there. The only downside is you have to wait until the blocker "picks him up." They could def. "hunt" a bit better.

[Redskins Pride]

Re: "Pinch" and "Spread OL Assignment and the Run Game

No one uses practice mode anymore? I mean ... set up a practice, run a few running plays and experiment and make the call yourself. it'll make you feel good.

[Valdarez]

Re: "Pinch" and "Spread OL Assignment and the Run Game

I was actually trying this tonight as I'm playing using Begginner Playcalling to make the game more difficult and that's about the only thing you can do on offense in the mode. I couldn't tell that it made any difference, especially if the defense was blitzing. The blockers are going to pick up whoever is in their area unless they are pulling. It doesn't seem to redirect them in any meaningful way.

So count me in the group that doesn't think it does anything for the running game.

[Pared]

Re: "Pinch" and "Spread OL Assignment and the Run Game

It certainly does something, at least the left/right shifts. Check out their assignments in the play. They'll run them initially then pick up on guys. With the shifts, they make that first move to the left/right appropriately.

I've never used Pinch, personally. No difference in that one. Aggressive forces your line straight forward.

[Valdarez]

Re: "Pinch" and "Spread OL Assignment and the Run Game

I've also given up on toss plays. All the person on D has to do is run way outside and the blockers will ignore them. Then turn back in and make the tackle. So that really leaves dives and counters, off tackle and that's all you can run really.

I'm using the NFL Simulation Sliders, but it's set to a decent difficulty setting for running in an attempt to make it authentic. This analysis is based purely from offline play against the AI.

Here's what I've learned in the running game.

Anything to the outside (sweep, toss, Power-O), run it fast. I hit RT as soon as I get the ball and look for the hole. Usually you don't need to make much of a move to hit it, so no need for big directional changes.

For any play through the A / B gaps (ISOs and such), run without RT and look for the hole. You're going into the defender and you may need to make some fairly large directional changes.

[Valdarez]

Re: "Pinch" and "Spread OL Assignment and the Run Game

It certainly does something, at least the left/right shifts. Check out their assignments in the play. They'll run them initially then pick up on guys. With the shifts, they make that first move to the left/right appropriately.

I've never used Pinch, personally. No difference in that one. Aggressive forces your line straight forward.

Hey Pared, I'm in a game right now. When I adjust to the left / right, I can see the art for where they are supposed to move, kind of looks like a stretch run, but when the play starts, they just push straight forward (this was on a run up the middle).

I wonder if the direction they are willing to move is in any way limited/affected by the type of play being run?

[KBLover]

Re: "Pinch" and "Spread OL Assignment and the Run Game

I use aggressive a lot as I thought it was for runs (why would you want your line blocking forward on pass plays? That would put them blocking downfield would it not? Isn't that a penalty?)

Aggressive seems to make my runs more effective, especially between the tackles, though sometimes it works for stretch and other outside runs because the T/TE will go seek out the OLB/DB on that side and try to engage him. If he does, then you can get a seal on that side and have a good edge to run around and get into the secondary. Aggressive line calls seems to work VERY well if you happen to catch the defense running a zone or if they aren't blitzing the middle and/or jack LB.

Pinch, I use it on draw plays mostly since the line has to hold the blocks a little longer and most draws are right up the middle. Maybe I should try aggressive with those as well.

L/R slides, I have little luck with those, even on outside runs. Maybe my linemen just aren't fast enough (Ravens seem to have slow linemen) though a couple times it worked well, but I think I just caught the defense guessing the wrong side.

I wouldn't sprint as soon as the play starts, though, on stretch plays. Sometimes the RE will drive the LT upfield, but the LG will hold his edge. That creates a gap, so sometimes you have to cut into that gap, then hit it fast to get outside. After that I square up and try to finish the run (what this game calls "trucking") so my back will fight forward before going down.

Running inside, I'll use the sprint to hit a lane fast if I see one - kinda like the "one-cut runners" do in the NFL. If there's no lane, then I cover up the ball and "truck" so that the back can power ahead for yards if he gets contacted, especially the "jump off from being fully engaged to being on the HB's back" crap that happens.

I like running behind the guard or in a guard/tackle gap instead of actually outside. Sometimes you can bounce it outside, but a lot of times, the blocking is better. I like the power runs where you overload a side the best. The ones where the play has green motion and then some pulling linemen.

Oh, and there's a downside, at least with my lines (on my two franchise teams), sometimes they'll miss blitzers if you use a line call. If I think the defense is blitzing or doing something that the line won't pick up if I make a line call, I'll leave it be as I think that lets them pick out their own targets. Sometimes, that can get a run blitz picked up, giving your HB a chance for a worthwhile gain. That said, my OL aren't the greatest. Ravens line is solid, but not great and my fantasy draft team has a very young, inexperienced line.

[Pared]

Re: "Pinch" and "Spread OL Assignment and the Run Game

Hey Pared, I'm in a game right now. When I adjust to the left / right, I can see the art for where they are supposed to move, kind of looks like a stretch run, but when the play starts, they just push straight forward (this was on a run up the middle).

I wonder if the direction they are willing to move is in any way limited/affected by the type of play being run?

It could be. I don't think we know for sure that sliders don't affect their assignments either. Just to be sure, All-pro diff.

I've tested this extensively in head to head games without sliders and they certainly adjust their assignments. Try shifting away from the desired toss direction and you will see what I'm talking about.