Backbreaker Ratings System

[jWILL253]

I read a poll in the Backbreaker Forums regarding their ratings system. They were choosing between:

Number system: This system, as commonly used in other games, breaks down a variety of athletic and position specific attributes and ranks them 1-100.

Special Skills/Deficiencies: This system does not include numbers, but shows where a player may excel at a specific skill (ex. Lock-down corner, runs crisp routes, pancake blocker, cannon for an arm, etc.) or be deficient at a certain skill (ex. Slow feet, poor in man coverage, etc.). Players are identified with icons on the field to help identify potential mismatches.

Combine Testing Scores: This system uses testing scores from a variety of commonly used tests in pre-season training/testing and combine tests (such as vertical leap, 40-yard dash time, pro agility time, bench-press reps of 225 lbs in 30 seconds, etc.) From these tests, as well as position-specific training exercises, one identifies and grades their players’ athletic abilities and skills. Thus, one is forced to evaluate their own players.

Combo: This system involves using one rating, an overall rating of a player, and also incorporates the special skills/deficiencies identifier/icons. It shows the overall value of a player as well as what they do extremely well or poorly.

Blend: This system involves taking a handful of athletic/mental and position-specific attributes. An example for a quarterback would be speed, agility, strength, and concentration (athletic/mental attributes). Then arm strength and passing accuracy (position-specific attributes). These six attributes will each be given a value (1-100 or 1-10 or 5 stars, etc.). Attributes would combine to create special skills as well. For instance, a quarterback with high speed, agility, and concentration ratings may be a great "scrambler." Furthermore, a quarterback with a very high passing accuracy rating might have be a "bull's eye" quarterback. These special skills would be identified through icons on the field.

The Blend option won by a landslide. I also like Blend, but I think I can elaborate on it somemore. Here's how I think it should work:

Physical Ratings

-Speed (Rated by using what I'd like to call the 5-Star Tier System; more on that later)
-Agility (5-STS)
-Strength (5-STS)
-Jumping (5-STS)

-Stamina (Here, you would choose between options. On this particular rating, you would choose how often the player would be subbed: Frequent, Normal, Rarely, or Never)

-Durability (here, you would choose how prone the player is to injury: Weak, Below Average, Average, Strong,or Healthy)

Mental Ratings

-Attitude (Disruptive, Quiet, Neutral, Chill, or Positive; this affects off the field actions)

-Leadership Style (Selfish, None, Example [lead by example], Team Player, or Captain)

-Composure (Loose Cannon, Disruptive, Neutral, or Calm; this affects how players react to the outcome of plays. It also works in conjuction with the ATT (Attitude) rating and leadership style. So, therefore, a QB with a ATT rating of Positive; and a Leadership Style of Caprain; but with the COM (Composure) rating of Loose Cannon, is a good thing)

-Concentration (None, Little, Average, High, or Very High; this affects the players ability to stay focused on his assignment in the heat of a play, and the overall game in general)

Position Specific Ratings

1. QB

-Field Vision (5-STS; this impacts the ability of a QB to see know where all his receivers are without looking straight at them)

-Arm Strength (5-STS)

-Short Accuraccy (Adjust Completion %; you could make this as high, or low, as you want)

-Medium Accuracy (Completion %; should be no lower than 40%, no higher than 80%)

-Deep Accuracy (Completion %; should be no lower than 20%, no higher than 60%)

(Overall Accuracy combines these three ratings, and rates the QB using 5-STS)

-Pocket Presence (None, Jumpy, Cautious, Calm, Shifty, or Scramble)

-Aggresiveness (Conservative, Normal, Ambitious, or Risky; this rating tells you if your QB likes to take risks. A ''Risky'' rating will say the QB tends to turn the ball over, both through INT's, and fumbles; a ''Conservative'' rating suggests that the QB doesn't throw, or run, past 15- yards in most cases)

-Playbook Awareness (Very Low, Little, Basic, High, or Very High; this affects a QB's ability to call an effective play in the huddle, and his ability to read the defense and check the play. When a QB gets traded to a new team [or gets drafted], there's a new Head Coach, or if you choose a different playbook to run, this rating fluxuates, depending on the playbook being used)

-Rally (None, Little, Normal, High, or Very High; this affects the QB's ability to rally his team from behind to get a win in crunch time)

2. WR/TE

-Catching Style (Secure, Normal, Aggresive, or Highlight; this rating will say what type of catch the receiver usually attempts. Meaning, if he has an ''Highlight'' rating, he'll attempt to go for jump balls more often, but also will attempt more one-handed catches, and drop the ball more often)

-Catching Ability (5-STS)

-Route Running (5-STS; this affects the quality of his route-running ability, and his vision in zone coverage)

-Release (Slow, Normal, or Quick; affects the ability of the reciever to burst off the ball, and beat press coverage)

-Run Block (5-STS)

I'll add to the ratings later, when my hands aren't tired (I'm a slow typer, lol)

5-Star Tier System (5-STS)

The post in the forum mentioned a 5-star rating system, sort of like FIFA's. Well, I came up with the 5-STS. Here's how it works:

A certain attribute is rated with stars, up to five stars for one given attribute. Sounds simple enough, right? Wrong!

Any attribute that has 1-4 stars is treated as is. But any 5-star attribute is given a tier: 1st Tier (the lowest), 2nd Tier, or 3rd Tier (the highest). Any player that has a 5-Star attribute in the 1st Tier, means that he's is above average in that particular skill set. Any player that has a 5-Star, 2nd Tier attribute means that he is among the true elite in that ability. Lastly, any player that has a 5-Star, 3rd Tier attribute means that he IS the elite. Meaning that only he can jump that high; only he can run that fast; only he can throw that far, and so on...

I'll be back to add to this later. My hands are tired, lol...

[CreatineKasey]

Re: Backbreaker Ratings System

I'd suggest a rating for awareness or intelligence. Not every player has the same level of intelligence. Video games have struggled to portray this attribute successfully at the QB position for years. It is portrayed much easier at other positions: they do their assignment!

[LingeringRegime]

Re: Backbreaker Ratings System

I like to hear discussions going on like this. It proves to me that this game is heading in a simulation direction, rather than an arcade one. So, we can stop the talk of this being a Blitz type of game.

[turftickler]

Re: Backbreaker Ratings System

Great thread jWill. I too am happy to see that someone else is seeing the light. There are too many people bashing Backbreaker because it doesn't have the NFL and NFL type uniforms, instead of delving deeper into the core of the game. For a while, I thought we did not have much info, but we actually have lots to talk about. I am one of the hardcore vets on the official website for Backbreaker and I am more excited today than I was when I first heard the news of this game.

The Blend System had an overwhelming vote. We did not want to be limited to just one type of attribute system. As DEFTFUNDAMENTALZ said, Backbreaker is going to be more of a real football simulation than a Blitz type game. At first it was going to be more of a blend of arcade and sim, but now there are different modes and levels to the game. It will be a game for people to enjoy without the restrictions of the NFL as people did with APF 2k8, but 10 times better than that. No tackle will ever be the same!

[elgreazy1]

Re: Backbreaker Ratings System

Honestly, I'm done with having Number Ratings ever since APF2K8 came out. I think there needs to be some unknowns when it comes to players, sure in the NFL you can test and get certain metrics (40 yard dash, bench press, cone drill, etc) but in the end, you'll never know what a player can really do until you've either: seen tape or seen him in person.

I mean, look at Madden, there are far too many Ratings to go through... I mean it takes forever to drill down these "tangibles" only to not even notice a difference. A player should be rated on merely basics: speed/quickness, strength (upper & lower), durability/injuries/fatigue, football IQ, technique. Honestly, those are really any player should have some sort of metrics on but even those shouldn't be a cut & dry with cold, hard numbers.

[CreatineKasey]

Re: Backbreaker Ratings System

Honestly, I'm done with having Number Ratings ever since APF2K8 came out. I think there needs to be some unknowns when it comes to players, sure in the NFL you can test and get certain metrics (40 yard dash, bench press, cone drill, etc) but in the end, you'll never know what a player can really do until you've either: seen tape or seen him in person.

I mean, look at Madden, there are far too many Ratings to go through... I mean it takes forever to drill down these "tangibles" only to not even notice a difference. A player should be rated on merely basics: speed/quickness, strength (upper & lower), durability/injuries/fatigue, football IQ, technique. Honestly, those are really any player should have some sort of metrics on but even those shouldn't be a cut & dry with cold, hard numbers.

Yep. Players feel much more colorful when they are described like we describe athletes in real life. Numbers are so disengaging. APF's ability system was the best rating system I've ever seen, and it had room for improvement. Numbers are a cop out.

[Glorious Arc]

Re: Backbreaker Ratings System

Yep. Players feel much more colorful when they are described like we describe athletes in real life. Numbers are so disengaging. APF's ability system was the best rating system I've ever seen, and it had room for improvement. Numbers are a cop out.

No offense but, I feel that APF's ability system was a cop out. Think about it in big picture...

How would you work progression with APF? How would you work changing positions? How would you work making sure that thousands of players dont end up playing and feeling the same?

Lets start with the basic theory of how APF works. People get abilities(weapons) that increase their stats(and unlock animations) to make them perform at a higher level. People without abilities have a base line of stats. In madden terms, that means every single no star Olinemen has 60 pass/run block but if you have an Olinemen with brick wall then he will have 90 pass block and a 60 run block.

Under this system, if I move Joe Montana to oline then he will play like a no star oline but we know for a fact that he would get murdered if he tried to play oline IRL.

Every player will only have a limit of X amount of abilities that they could obtain and therefore you would have several players that play exactly alike another. Not to forget that the no star players all will play similar to each other.

To make progression work, they would have to add in a level system for each ability a person can get. That basically means a level one power back will have 70 truck a level 2 would have 80 and a level 3 would have 90...ect ect. At that point why bother having abilities when you can establish a definitive system that tells you X player is this much better then Y player.

If madden made their ratings properly work and have different animations for each rating then we wouldnt even be having this discussion because of how ridiculous it is. A 0-100 rating system is incredibly more in depth and advanced then a level ability system and wouldnt have the inherit flaws I have listed above.

If you dont want to see what another teams players are like it wouldnt be hard to fix.(to try and humanize the league) Simply put ?s on every other team's players stats and all incoming rookies, then establish a word system that describes the player's strengths and weaknesses. That coupled with their production, we could figure out who is the most dominate player and then see a general description of why they are or are not good. The ? marks would only disappear if you properly scouted that player(that is a whole different topic but you get the general idea)

Something I have yet to hear really any football game talk about is balance. One of the key most important ability of a RB. A RB can be able to juke, spin, truck, or whatever out of a tackle but if they dont have good balance they bust their *** or go straight to the ground after contact. A RB with amazing balance is better then having a RB who can move laterally and vertically well. They can be tackled and hit but they manage to find a way to stay upright and run down field for more. Emmit Smith is a perfect example of balance being more important then having any other run ability.

[jyoung]

Re: Backbreaker Ratings System

All Pro Football had player ratings, they were just hidden from the user. This becomes obvious once you realize that created players have their ratings randomized each time you remake them.

I prefer the system used in All Pro because it lets you know what skills certain players are good at without having to pour through 30 different rating categories.

[CreatineKasey]

Re: Backbreaker Ratings System

All Pro Football had player ratings, they were just hidden from the user. This becomes obvious once you realize that created players have their ratings randomized each time you remake them.

I prefer the system used in All Pro because it lets you know what skills certain players are good at without having to pour through 30 different rating categories.

This is exactly right. The post 2 posts above is an over-simplification of the APF system. The 0-100 scale was there, it just wasn't for us to see. Instead, the game focused on characterizing their athletes in a different way, more on their abilities. Your example about Montana couldn't be further from the truth. The abilities aren't all the same, we just don't see them. Even generics all played different... it was pretty amazing.

I still stand by my opinion that a simple 0-100 scale is a cop out. I want the athletes characterized.

[Glorious Arc]

Re: Backbreaker Ratings System

This is exactly right. The post 2 posts above is an over-simplification of the APF system. The 0-100 scale was there, it just wasn't for us to see. Instead, the game focused on characterizing their athletes in a different way, more on their abilities. Your example about Montana couldn't be further from the truth. The abilities aren't all the same, we just don't see them. Even generics all played different... it was pretty amazing.

I still stand by my opinion that a simple 0-100 scale is a cop out. I want the athletes characterized.

I guess you could say I feel that anything less then a blending of everything is a cop out

My post about Montana was just a theoretical argument because we really dont know what would happen in the APF system if I were to move him...But if all no star players receive a base line of stats then it would theoretically be possible for Montana to play just like a no star player(Then again if they made all QBs have 0 blocking skill then that would solve the problem but again...why not show the people instead of hiding it?)

I hate games that hide their mechanics from the public. I personally am a number cruncher and enjoy looking to find ways to maximize my current situation(be it in Diablo 2, football, or dragon age) I want to know "for sure" that what I am doing is good or the best and I cant do that with just a general statement the APF system gives us. But I cant get any RPG value from madden either so that are both flawed in that manner.

I think they should have all three systems in place and let the players decide. Meaning have a tier/star system that expresses the numbers from a 0-100 system, the 0-100 system, and having players described in scouting reports. The AI can work on only the 0-100 system for simplistic game design and it would allow players to play the game the way they want to play it.

[CreatineKasey]

Re: Backbreaker Ratings System

The benefit of hiding things like a quarterback's pass block is an avoidance of clutter. I like things being simplified towards what's important. I like to know what's most important for match-ups. I know you can glean these things from endless 0-100 ratings, but I find not knowing definitive ratings makes the game feel more life like. Yeah, it's a game made of pixels, but I can relate what I see to reality better when I'm characterizing players by abilities, not numbers. The detailed numerical ratings system is in place underneath the hood. As for your Montana example, again it doesn't hold water. APF didn't always have simple, baseline numbers for non legend players.

[Glorious Arc]

Re: Backbreaker Ratings System

The benefit of hiding things like a quarterback's pass block is an avoidance of clutter. I like things being simplified towards what's important. I like to know what's most important for match-ups. I know you can glean these things from endless 0-100 ratings, but I find not knowing definitive ratings makes the game feel more life like. Yeah, it's a game made of pixels, but I can relate what I see to reality better when I'm characterizing players by abilities, not numbers. The detailed numerical ratings system is in place underneath the hood. As for your Montana example, again it doesn't hold water. APF didn't always have simple, baseline numbers for non legend players.

If it was simply a matter of clutter then it would be simple to design a menu option that allows for the user to choose how the stats are arranged in the menu. That way, if you think RB abilities are the most important for a QB then you can put those stats in front of his throwing abilities to allow for easier access to them.

Having an ability system doesnt allow for an easy way to move players around. If you have players like Mike Furry, Devin Hester, or Deion Sanders who played both sides of the ball then you would have to give them abilities for both sides of the ball and that would add just as much clutter as having the current system madden has.

I am not pro just a single 0-100 system. It leaves to much open and doesnt allow for a whole to be developed. That is why I think they should have different menus so you can choose how you look at the players(from the 3 above) It would appease everyone and make everyone happy.

IMO having an ability system forces people to spend time experimenting and developing a new system to determine how much better X ability is compared to Y ability. Having a word system that describes players for the number stats is again another number system that the user will need to spend time to crack before he figures out the system. They feel like a waste of time when they all derive from the 0-100 system but if someone wants those then they should have it in the game to allow others to use because it makes them happy. Just dont punish the others either way.

How do you know that APF did not use baseline numbers for each player at a given position? Even if they made it so a balanced Oline men would have a random range of 40-60 pass/run block or if they gave run blocking Oline have 60-70 run block and 30-40 pass block, it still means they would be giving those players numbers. Why should they hide them out of sight when there are simply solutions that appease everyone?

[hatisback]

Re: Backbreaker Ratings System

IMO having an ability system forces people to spend time experimenting and developing a new system to determine how much better X ability is compared to Y ability. Having a word system that describes players for the number stats is again another number system that the user will need to spend time to crack before he figures out the system. They feel like a waste of time when they all derive from the 0-100 system but if someone wants those then they should have it in the game to allow others to use because it makes them happy. Just dont punish the others either.

I thought that was the purpose of football? To experiment and try different things to find a mismatch, whether it be defense locking down a star WR or find mismatches in a cover 2 scheme. It wouldnt be a challenge to just jump in there and already know what works. You sound like your used to playing Madden, where every year speed is the only thing important.

[Glorious Arc]

Re: Backbreaker Ratings System

I thought that was the purpose of football? To experiment and try different things to find a mismatch, whether it be defense locking down a star WR or find mismatches in a cover 2 scheme. It wouldnt be a challenge to just jump in there and already know what works. You sound like your used to playing Madden, where every year speed is the only thing important.

You misunderstand my point. I am growing up and dont have time to spend 8 hours a day to test and experiment how much better it is to have a pass rush bonus compared to a pass rush move upgrade. To compare how much faster/better having a fast player compared to having a player who has the burst speed that allows him to outrun defenders. To compare an agile player to a player who is good in and out of his cuts. Do you see my point?

In a 0-100 system, I can sit and say Jack is this much more agile or this much better compared to Joe in less then 10 seconds without having to jump into a game or practice and spend countless hours to figure these things out. I could spend the man hours to figure them out but honestly I just dont have the time to do it anymore. I like to have the ability to use my players to their best ability without having to decode the system of words/abilities when there is a simple method to allow me full access to all of the info.

I am all for having those simplistic systems of abilities/weapons/word descriptions for others but I am saying they shouldnt force me to not be able to look at my roster and determine who is going to be the best pass rusher on 3rd down or who on the opponents roster is weakest in coverage so I know to throw the ball in his direction early and often. Who I need to worry about in the run game and who I should run the ball at...Who I should move to QB because he has great ability to run with the ball and an average arm or who I should move to WR because he has average hands but is terrific after the catch. A 0-100 system allows me to make these adjustments in less then a handful of seconds.

Madden is complete garbage at trying to separate players different ratings and animations. It doesnt even compare to what 2k has done before but that still doesnt mean that their system(0-100) is worse then an ability system. It just means they suck at creating a proper game play environment. And honestly I dont appreciate the assumptions you make towards my opinions.

[CreatineKasey]

Re: Backbreaker Ratings System

I want abilities not to "please everyone" but to best characterize athletes in a game to increase immersiveness and accentuate what is most important. Numbers just take life out of the game in my opinion. All video games are a bunch of 1's and 0's of code. Why give away the code? Let's imagine there's more to the game and leave it at that.