Mike Wang Returns to 2K Sports: NBA 2K Series (ESPN)

[rspencer86]

Re: Mike Wang Returns to 2K Sports: NBA 2K Series (ESPN)

This thread is beginning to prove that some have zero interest in there being two or more competitive sports games. We can give a good talk about how exclusive licenses ruin the industry and that it's only better when you have multiple representations of the sport in a game. However, the reality is most want "their" game to win.

I don't know why really, but some are so jaded by things that I think they literally get mad and can't celebrate the success and efforts of the product that is not "their" game.

Agreed. This is really a good news/bad news situation because although I believe this reunion of the 2K7/8 development team could potentially produce an outstanding game, if NBA Live falls off the map we would lose that competitive force that will push the 2K team to keep making a solid product.

Someone posted that the comparison between 2K and Live is now like a muscle car and a hybrid. Using that analogy, wouldn't the dude driving the muscle car look in his rearview and see the Prius just barely getting off the line when he is already halfway home and decide to ease off the pedal and coast to victory?

It's just human nature to let your guard down and take it a bit easy when there isn't competitive pressure. Ultimately, that's bad for us gamers, no matter which game is the top dog.

[23]

Re: Mike Wang Returns to 2K Sports: NBA 2K Series (ESPN)

spense, while I understand what you're saying, its all EA's fault for not being competetive. Im all for having the most basketball I can have, period.

Hate to say it but EA doesnt seem to be driven by competition either. I really dont know what they're doing.

If its anything like my company, corporate decisions almost never make sense, and they never seem to to be made off of whats really needed. All of the red tape you have to go through makes it not only difficult but takes an extra long time to get anything done. Corporate processes sucks hard, but whats turning me off is the look of no stability.

Change is good but not when you are constantly changing things on top of changing things.

[Gotmadskillzson]

Re: Mike Wang Returns to 2K Sports: NBA 2K Series (ESPN)

EA isn't going to stop making NBA games, they have way too much money to burn. They can sell 600K copies a year and they won't care. They can afford it being that EA doesn't rely on their sports division as nearly as hard as they use to back in the 90s. People forget EA publishes Dragion Age and the Mass Effect series, both million copies sellers.

That being said, it will always be competition in NBA games. Don't matter how arcadey Live gets or whatever direction it goes, Live will always be around.

[spankdatazz22]

Re: Mike Wang Returns to 2K Sports: NBA 2K Series (ESPN)

I hope mike brings back the dribble system of live to the 2k series... 2k badly needs it.

"Brings back" the dribble system of Live...? When did 2K ever have the system Live had in place? And why would 2K want to make their game more like Live when they've clearly established their [methods overall] are preferred? There are reasons 2K's been able to extend itself as the dominant basketball game and it's not all because of Live's "incompentence". If that's in fact what people are blaming the disparity on.

I'm happy to have Mike Wang back and all, but I don't think it's realistic to expect some best of both worlds/now I expect perfection scenario from 2K/VC. It seems what's going on w/some now is what I see in the Madden forum - people wanting to place a product's success/failure solely on one individual. With Madden, David Ortiz was supposed the be the cause of all of Madden's ills, and Ian Cummings it's savior. Despite the fact by Ian's own admission he was integral to the development of Maddens '08 & '09. Still you had people going off w/the "Ian is god" and "I'm going to name my first born after Ian" posts. And the sad thing is the game still hasn't put to rest talk of NFL2K5/2K8/last gen Madden lol. But that's a whole 'nother story.

A year ago some here were predicting 2K was going to fold without Mike Wang's guidance. They didn't. Seems the same people are now predicting Live going into some sort of tailspin without him. Again, doubt it. And this is coming from a person that's not a fan of Live. I think Synergy was probably Live's biggest innovation of the past few years, and that's something the Live devs were working on before Beluba joined their team. Or at least I don't recall him being solely responsibly for it's implementation. I could be wrong though. Either way, last year was "There's no way 2K can do anything to match what Live's doing w/Synergy; with Mike Wang's involvement it means Live will be back on top" blah blah blah. Without Mike Wang, 2K/VC developed a system of tendencies that showed itself to be definitively better in it's first year than what Synergy was in it's second year of implementation. Just think back to last year; there were all types of Synergy talk on this forum. This year we haven't heard a peep. While I like the discussions Beluba's move is generating, it needs to be kept in perspective.

[DaReapa]

Considering the poor offerings of the last two bball outings, this is a great move for 2K Sports. I haven't fully enjoyed 2K Sports basketball since CH 2K8/NBA 2K8, which was probably Wang's last work before leaving the company.

[rspencer86]

Re: Mike Wang Returns to 2K Sports: NBA 2K Series (ESPN)

Change is good but not when you are constantly changing things on top of changing things.

This sounds like a Yogi Berra-ism, lol.

spense, while I understand what you're saying, its all EA's fault for not being competetive. Im all for having the most basketball I can have, period.

Hate to say it but EA doesnt seem to be driven by competition either. I really dont know what they're doing.

If its anything like my company, corporate decisions almost never make sense, and they never seem to to be made off of whats really needed. All of the red tape you have to go through makes it not only difficult but takes an extra long time to get anything done. Corporate processes sucks hard, but whats turning me off is the look of no stability.

For EA, competition seems to have the opposite effect—instead of pushing their development team to make a better product, it causes the upper-level management to freak out and call for a change in direction.

The reason why, I would argue, is that EA Sports' upper-level brass do not believe the basic idea that a more realistic (what most of us here at OS would consider a "better") game leads to more sales. If EA's sales are lagging, their automatic response is not that the core gameplay needs to improve, it's that the product isn't targeting the main (read: casual) audience enough and is in need of a "new direction" or some kind of "innovation."

I'm just a firm believer that a solid, realistic sports game will beat out back-of-the-box marketing tactics every single time. Just look at MLB The Show. SCEA has given its developers the ability to make the game as realistic as possible without forcing them to whip up some mode that will help the marketing team do their thing. And The Show is killing the competition, not with marketing and glitz, but with great gameplay and attention to detail that improves the realism of the game.

I think the NBA 2K has a similar amount of leeway from the upper-level management to make a realistic game, which is why Mike Wang has returned and we have a reason to be excited about the future of the title. I just hope NBA Live doesn't end up going up in a puff of smoke for the reasons I stated in my last post.

[brahmagoul]

Re: Mike Wang Returns to 2K Sports: NBA 2K Series (ESPN)

This thread is beginning to prove that some have zero interest in there being two or more competitive sports games. We can give a good talk about how exclusive licenses ruin the industry and that it's only better when you have multiple representations of the sport in a game. However, the reality is most want "their" game to win.

I don't know why really, but some are so jaded by things that I think they literally get mad and can't celebrate the success and efforts of the product that is not "their" game.

I agree, but I kind of think such an attitude is warranted. People spend their hard-earned money on one game and they want to justify that it was the right purchase. It's like rooting for your stock to do well.

I bought both games this year and I'm disappointed. I thought Live would take some steps in regards to the little things on the court which we have in 2K -- like more authentic arena sounds, players waiting at the scorer's table, somewhat interractive environments like running into your team's bench, etc. With Wang back at 2K, I highly doubt we will see that in the Live franchise. It's a shame because Dynamic Season really made me want to go back to the Live series, because this is the only year I'm buying both games.

[CX1329]

Re: Mike Wang Returns to 2K Sports: NBA 2K Series (ESPN)

EA's management simply don't know a thing about basketball and its fans, and I don't think they care. The game isn't selling, so they just look at the sales figures and immediately go "HAY GUYS WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT OKAY".

In other terms, the devs might come to OS and see what we're looking for in a basketball game, but the guys wearing suits on the 50th floor of an office building aren't going to waste their time reading Internet posts. They only look at pie charts and numbers, hence why they're getting demolished in sales and are currently desperate and confused, changing directions at every opportunity.

It's what happens when there's so much focus on procedure and structure. Those who actually know what to do become powerless, and those who are clueless invariably make stupid decisions. It's not that EA IS EVIL, they simply don't know any better, and that's not going to change unless they change their corporate philosophy.

The FIFA and NHL franchises are the way they are because they continued to sell and dominate after they went sim. NBA Live, on the other hand, actually dropped in sales. So, it doesn't take a genius to figure out why they are trying to change things around yet again. Like I said before, they really don't know what to do at this point, because they haven't done their demographics homework.

[23]

Re: Mike Wang Returns to 2K Sports: NBA 2K Series (ESPN)

This sounds like a Yogi Berra-ism, lol.



For EA, competition seems to have the opposite effect—instead of pushing their development team to make a better product, it causes the upper-level management to freak out and call for a change in direction.

The reason why, I would argue, is that EA Sports' upper-level brass do not believe the basic idea that a more realistic (what most of us here at OS would consider a "better") game leads to more sales. If EA's sales are lagging, their automatic response is not that the core gameplay needs to improve, it's that the product isn't targeting the main (read: casual) audience enough and is in need of a "new direction" or some kind of "innovation."

I'm just a firm believer that a solid, realistic sports game will beat out back-of-the-box marketing tactics every single time. Just look at MLB The Show. SCEA has given its developers the ability to make the game as realistic as possible without forcing them to whip up some mode that will help the marketing team do their thing. And The Show is killing the competition, not with marketing and glitz, but with great gameplay and attention to detail that improves the realism of the game.

I think the NBA 2K has a similar amount of leeway from the upper-level management to make a realistic game, which is why Mike Wang has returned and we have a reason to be excited about the future of the title. I just hope NBA Live doesn't end up going up in a puff of smoke for the reasons I stated in my last post.

What they've lost the vision of is quality. Im not sure if they're scared of it or what, but I thought they were scrapping things done in Live 06, 07 because they were unfinished and broken games.

How unrealistic is it to think you'd grab a huge fanbase in one year? Years of giving fans the shaft and not building a trusting relationship doesnt just go away overnight.

People sit back and wait on 2k to deliver even with no media because they trust them, and have been given reason to, you'll see this same argument pop up again before release.

...but this right here, im not sure who these casual people are people speak of. Looks to me like 2k isnt having that problem at all

[ehh]

Re: Mike Wang Returns to 2K Sports: NBA 2K Series (ESPN)

What they've lost the vision of is quality. Im not sure if they're scared of it or what, but I thought they were scrapping things done in Live 06, 07 because they were unfinished and broken games.

How unrealistic is it to think you'd grab a huge fanbase in one year? Years of giving fans the shaft and not building a trusting relationship doesnt just go away overnight.

That's the craziest part about it, who at EA actually thinks that they're going to sell more by producing a lower quality product? And let alone do it in one year? I mean, you're in charge of major decisions at a huge company like EA and that's your rationale?

After EA flops with Live 11 and whatever "direction" it goes in, we'll see all this news that Live 12 will be sim and authentic, a "new" Live. They're going to end up coming back to Live 10's course because the plan they are going to most likely implement will lead to it's lowest sale totals yet. So at best Live 12 is going to be the rightful sequel to Live 10.

EA's management simply don't know a thing about basketball and its fans, and I don't think they care.

On a more basic level, EA doesn't know anything about running a successful company. Bouncing around from one plan to another, constantly changing plans and their future, annually putting out sub-par games, etc. Expecting instant success and gratification and if they don't get it they change things. That simply isn't a recipe for success as a business. They don't give anything time to naturally grow and mature. It's like buying a stock in Microsoft in the 70's and because it didn't triple in one year EA would have sold it. Nothing great is built overnight.

[23]

Re: Mike Wang Returns to 2K Sports: NBA 2K Series (ESPN)

I dont know whats going to happen but we will see.

Both of these games can welcome improvement in lots of areas

2k just has way more to offer even if they didnt go all out, EA isnt in the same position.

Scary for them but they should listen to the fans

[CX1329]

Re: Mike Wang Returns to 2K Sports: NBA 2K Series (ESPN)

That's the craziest part about it, who at EA actually thinks that they're going to sell more by producing a lower quality product? And let alone do it in one year? I mean, you're in charge of major decisions at a huge company like EA and that's your rationale?

I can bet money the words "hey, we're not selling enough copies, so let's make a terrible game instead and hope nobody notices." are never spoken during project meetings. EA doesn't know what "good quality" means at this point. To them, the concept of a basketball game that closely resembles NBA Jam in the way it plays could well be a masterpiece. I think they're trying to make quality games that would attract the public, but they just don't know how to do that, because they don't know their audience.

And that combined with poor business sense, like you said, is a recipe for disaster.

[23]

Re: Mike Wang Returns to 2K Sports: NBA 2K Series (ESPN)

I can bet money the words "hey, we're not selling enough copies, so let's make a terrible game instead and hope nobody notices." are never spoken during project meetings. EA doesn't know what "good quality" means at this point. To them, the concept of a basketball game that closely resembles NBA Jam in the way it plays could well be a masterpiece. I think they're trying to make quality games that would attract the public, but they just don't know how to do that, because they don't know their audience.

And that combined with poor business sense, like you said, is a recipe for disaster.

Its right in their faces. The competition is doing it in front of them and better.

Not only that but nobody's excuse but their own. You cannot seriously tell me an unfinished 06 or a broken 07 really had high expectations of sales because someone was on something if they thought so

[ehh]

Re: Mike Wang Returns to 2K Sports: NBA 2K Series (ESPN)

^^ Yeah, this ain't exactly rocket science. A little market research and they should have all the answers they'd ever need.

[ataman5]

Re: Mike Wang Returns to 2K Sports: NBA 2K Series (ESPN)

So at best Live 12 is going to be the rightful sequel to Live 10.

Well my guess would be 2015 unfortunately as they release good bball games in 5 years circle, while changing direction in some point they make it right as wee see with 2000, 2005 and now 10 so.