Mike Wang Returns to 2K Sports: NBA 2K Series (ESPN)

[HMcCoy]

Re: Mike Wang Returns to 2K Sports: NBA 2K Series (ESPN)

Thats a great idea. They could have seperate lobbies online for both game types as well.

Holy Grail.

I've only been crying for that for 4 years.

[rspencer86]

Re: Mike Wang Returns to 2K Sports: NBA 2K Series (ESPN)

Holy Grail.

I've only been crying for that for 4 years.

It makes NO sense not to have this in the game. The devs don't have to make it obvious like asking you as soon as you turn on the game "Are you a ARCADE or SIM player?", but I would be fine with them burying it in the option menu. Just have a toggle between standard and hardcore, with pre-set settings for both. The hardcore set could have realistic fouls, shooting percentages, fatigue, make it important to run plays, etc.

Then have separate online lobbies (both ranked, so you can build up stats and everything with either) for both settings.

Please, someone give me one good reason why that wouldn't be awesome.

[spankdatazz22]

Re: Mike Wang Returns to 2K Sports: NBA 2K Series (ESPN)

Please, someone give me one good reason why that wouldn't be awesome.

I'll play devil's advocate. One, you're splitting the fanbase. I think labeling the two modes Standard/Hardcore is a really good idea; labeling one arcade and the other standard or hardcore, and most will opt for/consider themselves hardcore I'd think. Given the attitude many hardcore players have and how they look down on anything they consider not hardcore 2K could be opening themselves up to that much more criticism. To me, arcade is Blacktop mode. NBA Jam. NBA Street. I've seen people here try to make the argument that the game at default is arcade, simply because it's not some hyper-realistic image of what they feel the game should be.

Even when I look on this forum I don't know that we'd find a consensus on what the definitive slider set is. Personally I like Pared's as a base, but I'm sure others feel their slider sets are the way to go. Still other hardcore players try to make the argument that the 2K rosters are horrible/unusable, and they have to play with community rosters. I disagree, but imo it's difficult to make the hardcore happy because there are so many varying perceptions out there. Even people here that consider themselves hardcore, the minute you watch them play or you listen to their logic about what they think is realistic, actually isn't.

It's hard to say, but I'd be willing to bet less than 20% of the people that buy the game actually understand how a basketball play works. I'd put myself in the category that doesn't. But when I play online I try to play realistically. And more often than not when I've played other people that are playing realistically but have a better understanding of the game, I lose. I know it can be frustrating to have to struggle with someone that uses poor tactics and aren't penalized as much as they should be for running around/hacking at everything so 2K needs to continue to tweak to find some middle ground, some way to teach people how to play. But that in itself has to be hard, as I'm sure a lot of the people that play that way don't see themselves as playing the game poorly. And in the end, it is a videogame.

[Bornindamecca]

Re: Mike Wang Returns to 2K Sports: NBA 2K Series (ESPN)

Answers in bold.

I'll play devil's advocate. One, you're splitting the fanbase. The fan base is already split; My Player guys, Association guys, Online Quick Game, Leagues, ranked/unranked...these are already different groups. Matching people according to play style is something done in many, many a genre.I think labeling the two modes Standard/Hardcore is a really good idea; labeling one arcade and the other standard or hardcore, and most will opt for/consider themselves hardcore I'd think. Given the attitude many hardcore players have and how they look down on anything they consider not hardcore 2K could be opening themselves up to that much more criticism. To me, arcade is Blacktop mode. NBA Jam. NBA Street. I've seen people here try to make the argument that the game at default is arcadeI still think that the pre-patch default game was more arcade than sim., simply because it's not some hyper-realistic image of what they feel the game should beNot hyper real. Basic scores and percentages in the general ballpark of real life, along with basic principles of the sport make it sim. If you can dunk and hit threes and hit shots regardless of personnel or real life cause/effect, then it's not a sim by the very definition of the word..

Even when I look on this forum I don't know that we'd find a consensus on what the definitive slider set is. Personally I like Pared's as a base, but I'm sure others feel their slider sets are the way to go. Still other hardcore players try to make the argument that the 2K rosters are horrible/unusable, and they have to play with community rosters. I disagree, but imo it's difficult to make the hardcore happy because there are so many varying perceptions out there. The idea is not to find some perfect utopia of simulation basketball that will please everyone. Regardless, we are all going to compromise on some level. It's a matter of agreeable compromise. If the basic percentages, player behavior and team strategy reflects real life, most people will agree that the game has an acceptable level of simulation.Even people here that consider themselves hardcore, the minute you watch them play or you listen to their logic about what they think is realistic, actually isn't.

It's hard to say, but I'd be willing to bet less than 20% of the people that buy the game actually understand how a basketball play worksI disagree with this. Most people who buy this game play basketball in real life. While you may not understand the intricacies of the San Antonio pick and roll or the Princeton offense, you do understand the principles of the pick and roll, pick and pop, isolation, off ball motion and fast break offense.. I'd put myself in the category that doesn't. But when I play online I try to play realistically. And more often than not when I've played other people that are playing realistically but have a better understanding of the game, I lose. I know it can be frustrating to have to struggle with someone that uses poor tactics and aren't penalized as much as they should be for running around/hacking at everything so 2K needs to continue to tweak to find some middle ground, some way to teach people how to play. But that in itself has to be hard, as I'm sure a lot of the people that play that way don't see themselves as playing the game poorly. The solution to this is much more basic than it seems. 2k intentionally shies away from certain realistic principles in the name of mass playability, and I don't disagree with this strategy. However, if the issue is "what would make a good sim setting?", that answer is very simple and obvious. Raise the fouls, raise the fatigue penalties, lower inside percentages and raise the influence of high traffic areas on the court.And in the end, it is a videogame.

[rspencer86]

Re: Mike Wang Returns to 2K Sports: NBA 2K Series (ESPN)

Two great posts back-to-back there. Probably going a little OT but still good stuff.

All I'm saying is that Wang and the other 2K devs have stated over and over that their goal is to make the most realistic NBA simulation possible. They can do that without alienating the non-hardcore gamer. Just give the hardcore guys like us the ability to make the game play realistically. I think we'll see some good steps forward on this for 2K11.

[michaeljordanjr]

Re: Mike Wang Returns to 2K Sports: NBA 2K Series (ESPN)

Weren't they supposed to change the coding this year though?

2K is a great looking game, it's sad how much better it can look if they re-do their engine to fully utilize the power of the new consoles and beyond.

If you are one that doubts it's possible, or that 2K can't be pushed further, look at new games coming out this year such as Heavy Rain or Crysis 2, these are phenomenal visually achievements.

2K sells 2 million, why spend money on making it look better or animate smoother when that cash they save on not pushing the graphics can go in their pockets.

2K has always seemed stiff, players momentum, the way they move or spin or animate into a jumpshot or layup/dunk, it's just not fluid, it still resembles PS2/Dreamcast type of animations.

[Jonesy]

Re: Mike Wang Returns to 2K Sports: NBA 2K Series (ESPN)

If you are one that doubts it's possible, or that 2K can't be pushed further, look at new games coming out this year such as Heavy Rain or Crysis 2, these are phenomenal visually achievements.

While i agree with you those games you mention have much longer development cycles and sometimes takes years of work to complete where as the sports games are working on 12 month cycles. That's the main reason we don't see the same development in sports games as we do in other areas imo but as you said if they are selling 2 mil copies every year why would they change?

[Tommyklaid]

Re: Mike Wang Returns to 2K Sports: NBA 2K Series (ESPN)

This news just made me soooooooo damn happy!!! I KNEW he was coming back to 2K...it's where he belongs as he helped make 2K basketball what it is today..>!

Welcome home Mike!

I look extremely forward to what y'all have in store for '11...should be a verrrry interesting rivalry this upcoming year!

[eDotd]

Re: Mike Wang Returns to 2K Sports: NBA 2K Series (ESPN)

2K has always seemed stiff, players momentum, the way they move or spin or animate into a jumpshot or layup/dunk, it's just not fluid, it still resembles PS2/Dreamcast type of animations.

That's weird. The consensus thought is that 2K is one of the better animating sports games, has been for about 3-4 years now. Not sure how where you got "stiff" from, if anything it's too loose at points. Different strokes for different folks.

2K is a great looking game, it's sad how much better it can look if they re-do their engine to fully utilize the power of the new consoles and beyond.

If you are one that doubts it's possible, or that 2K can't be pushed further, look at new games coming out this year such as Heavy Rain or Crysis 2, these are phenomenal visually achievements.

Dude, Heavy Rain and Crysis, seriously? Those are titles that have multi-year dev cycles, are built specifically for the hardware they reside on, and have full teams working on them the entire cycle. You can't honestly try to compare those two games (or any other non sports game) to a title that's lucky to get 8-9 months of dev time and is released annually.

And let's leave the engine talk at the door step. It's way to early to start rambling about new engines (you guys don't usually start until around july/august).

[Joka2122]

Re: Mike Wang Returns to 2K Sports: NBA 2K Series (ESPN)

It makes NO sense not to have this in the game. The devs don't have to make it obvious like asking you as soon as you turn on the game "Are you a ARCADE or SIM player?", but I would be fine with them burying it in the option menu. Just have a toggle between standard and hardcore, with pre-set settings for both. The hardcore set could have realistic fouls, shooting percentages, fatigue, make it important to run plays, etc.

Then have separate online lobbies (both ranked, so you can build up stats and everything with either) for both settings.

Please, someone give me one good reason why that wouldn't be awesome.

... up until you get cheesers crashing the Sim party.

[rspencer86]

Re: Mike Wang Returns to 2K Sports: NBA 2K Series (ESPN)

... up until you get cheesers crashing the Sim party.

Well, they wouldn't last long if their cheese tactics didn't work on the online simulation settings. I don't think they would stick with it if charging through the lane with LeBron and trying to dunk every time led to a bunch of offensive fouls, turnovers, and challenged shots.

[CX1329]

Re: Mike Wang Returns to 2K Sports: NBA 2K Series (ESPN)

That's another thing Live did better than 2K, in my opinion, that being preventing lane cheese. They did it so well that WTF moments often occur, such as scrubs blocking dunk attempts, players getting sucked into block animations, and easy passes into the paint inexplicably going astray or getting picked off. Also, trying to dribble inside with any but the best ball handlers is a recipe for frustration.

That said, I'd rather take the WTF moments. I like to play my hardest without having to worry about whether or not I'm accidentally cheesing. So maybe a "sim" setting could turn up the difficulty of penetrating and prevent anybody from throwing random, careless passes inside.

[BroMontana82]

Re: Mike Wang Returns to 2K Sports: NBA 2K Series (ESPN)

That's another thing Live did better than 2K, in my opinion, that being preventing lane cheese. They did it so well that WTF moments often occur, such as scrubs blocking dunk attempts, players getting sucked into block animations, and easy passes into the paint inexplicably going astray or getting picked off. Also, trying to dribble inside with any but the best ball handlers is a recipe for frustration.

That said, I'd rather take the WTF moments. I like to play my hardest without having to worry about whether or not I'm accidentally cheesing. So maybe a "sim" setting could turn up the difficulty of penetrating and prevent anybody from throwing random, careless passes inside.

the pass problem is a lot better with the patch, especially with sliders but they need to make defense a lot stronger overall. it was better with lock on d last year and previous years. i'd rather have more D than less and adjust from there. a lot of people have been complaining about D so i think they will look at this for 2k11 though.

[Jonesy]

Re: Mike Wang Returns to 2K Sports: NBA 2K Series (ESPN)

That's another thing Live did better than 2K, in my opinion, that being preventing lane cheese. They did it so well that WTF moments often occur, such as scrubs blocking dunk attempts, players getting sucked into block animations, and easy passes into the paint inexplicably going astray or getting picked off. Also, trying to dribble inside with any but the best ball handlers is a recipe for frustration.

Totally agree with this. I think 2k10 is the superior game many times over for single player but Live is much better at limiting cheese for online games that's for sure. I've had some great games online where i had won and lost without feeling "cheated" because of constant cheese tactics.

[BroMontana82]

Re: Mike Wang Returns to 2K Sports: NBA 2K Series (ESPN)

Totally agree with this. I think 2k10 is the superior game many times over for single player but Live is much better at limiting cheese for online games that's for sure. I've had some great games online where i had won and lost without feeling "cheated" because of constant cheese tactics.

for me, 2k, live, and any sports game is going to have a trade off like that or some sort of cheese no matter what. that's why i don't play online unless it's with a friend. at least for ranked games where you play on default difficulty and sliders. it's just part of the default game. plus, even if the tactics don't work, you are always going to get those randoms who still try to just take charges, swipe, and dunk.