Madden NFL 11 Hints From EA (IGN)

[ODogg]

Re: Madden NFL 11 Hints From EA (IGN)

The disagreement is you are faulting EA for not having AI that is comparable to a human and CreatineKasey and I are saying that is not something EA should be faulted for since no games do. Could it be better? Yes. But to fault them for offline not matching online play is unrealistic since AI in general is not there yet and probably won't be for a long, long time.

[CreatineKasey]

Re: Madden 11 Hints From EA

I wonder how many people play exclusively online and how many people play only a game or 2 online. I'm pretty sure that number is the people who have ever booted up or started an online game. A better representation would be players who have logged in 75 or more games.

You guys know that I love to play online....but life happens. There are instances where time is too valuable to get online and play a cheeser and the line of work I'm in....I can't make a league work. There are plenty of gamers who just want to sit down for a hour and be immersed. That's where I think Madden it's losing it's audience with.

:EDIT: Madden 2002 had in game saves....not to have them in Madden 11 would be INEXCUSABLE.

I bet most owners of Madden never play 75 games worth of football, online or offline. Most gamers aren't like us. They don't pick 1 game and put serious hours into it. There's plenty of casual gamers and guys who bounce back and forth from new games every month or two.

Massively Multiplayer Online games have kind of set a blueprint for getting a gamer to commit to your game. Think of Modern Warfare 2 and how it "unlocks" weapons and abilities as the gamer competes. That motivates many gamers to keep going. Madden's traditional matchmaking and leaderboards lack the motivation that other games give. Those progression markers are very addicting. Online Franchise is a wonderful step in that direction. Unfortunately unless you're hardcore about creating an offseason, it falls far short for most gamers. It's not for the causal fan this season.

Madden would greatly benefit from adding in some sort of "progressing over time" online function. They attempted that somewhat with the "Ultimate Team" function. Sadly, that mode didn't allow play with friends and was sorely tainted by the ability to purchase a good team. That idea can be enjoyable, but it was implemented very wrong. I'm guessing that feature is near dead at this point. Hopefully they learn from that and adjust accordingly.

If they can shave games down to 30 minutes (like Tecmo Super Bowl!) and create some kind of motivation to play games outside of 1 win on your ranked match list, they'll grow their fan base and hold onto their game owners for the better part of the season. I bet most guys are done with Madden by the end of September. I know I always was before Online Franchise.

[killgod]

Re: Madden NFL 11 Hints From EA (IGN)

The disagreement is you are faulting EA for not having AI that is comparable to a human and CreatineKasey and I are saying that is not something EA should be faulted for since no games do. Could it be better? Yes. But to fault them for offline not matching online play is unrealistic since AI in general is not there yet and probably won't be for a long, long time.

Well there's perfectly acceptable GM logic seen in games like Football Manager and EHM, etc.

So yes GM logic certainly can exist on a level comparable to a human being. So to suggest that can't be done, is well, not true.


As for in-game, again the decisions made (playcalling, timeout usage, etc) can certainly be improved. I saw better usage of these concepts in Sierra's Front PAge Sports Football 95 than you see in the current Madden franchise. These concepts have been nearly UNCHANGED in a decade, you cannot deny this. It almost seems it's not even worked on, so clearly there is no improvements, but again to say that's not possible it flat out silly.

The only area you may have a point (and it really comes to knowing how the game is built, which none of us do) would be how the players play on the field. That's it. I won't comment on that because I myself don't know the inner workings of the game, but some can argue that other football games have "smarter" players on the field from simply what they see when playing.

[raz77]

Re: Madden NFL 11 Hints From EA (IGN)

Another interesting factoid had to do with playcalling. Madden NFL 10 included 330 plays. The average user used 13 of them. I'm not exactly sure how they're going to get people to explore the playbook, but some sort of simplification is clearly needed."

Simplification is not needed. Add a tutorial on playcalling, beef up the instruction booklet, fix the exploits & broken plays to make more strategies viable, but don't go dumbing things down yet again.

[kjcheezhead]

Re: Madden NFL 11 Hints From EA (IGN)

Wasn't adaptive AI put in place to make gamers use their whole playbook? Madden 11 is showing every sign that it just wants to bring in new/casual gamers. Most people who liked Madden 10 still felt it was just a step in the right direction and I don't see the leap from Madden 10-11 being that great right now.

[randers]

Re: Madden NFL 11 Hints From EA (IGN)

You've been shedding too much light Lu
You make'em wanna make the game right Lu
They need to fiks the flats Lu
They're bringin NFL Blitz back Lu?
They're trying to get a better game Lu
They're starting to think that arcade football is lame Lu
They're trying to stop buying Yearly poopoo **
I'll tell you what you should do (Dumb it down)

**(not that this years or last year's versions were, I love the game <3)

[KBLover]

Re: Madden NFL 11 Hints From EA (IGN)

I think it's less a case of the limitations of AI technology and more a case of EA not programming good AI. I think sports games can have AI that calls and plays a game a lot like a human can because we see humans doing it all the time.

We know how smart coaches think and smart (and not-so-smart) players play and act on the field. Program the decisions a real player would have to make into the player AI code. Program the decisions a coach has to make into the playcall AI code. Have tendencies and some randomness so it's not exactly the same all the time.

Heck, considering Madden "coaches" don't have to worry about nearly as much as real ones do in Madden 10 - it should be even simpler. Just evaluate personnel and playbook they want to run and get guys that fit together. Calculating ratings and attaching modifiers to various areas based on playbook on the AI side (for decision making purposes only) - probably a lot like how HC did it.

Don't talk to me about limits of AI tech until EA is pushing them. Funny RTS got brought up because I've played some RTS with very solid and moddable AI that I've created AI players for some buddies and I to play when we want to co-op vs AI players (it's my "position" on our "team" - I'm to find out how to mod/create AI players if possible, and then create/mod those AI players).

When we can create and mod our own AI with a robust framework that, at it's heart, is already smart and flexible - then we can talk about EA running up against the limits of game AI.

[ODogg]

Re: Madden NFL 11 Hints From EA (IGN)

killgod - yes i was only talking about on the field play since I believe that is what EA is referring to in reference to the number of games played.

[killgod]

Re: Madden NFL 11 Hints From EA (IGN)

killgod - yes i was only talking about on the field play since I believe that is what EA is referring to in reference to the number of games played.

Well I was debating with the other guy about why people choose to play online so much over offline and there's plenty of points to look at, including the on the field play.

Unfortunately there's not much other competition for video game football (thanks to the NFL and EA) so we can only determine what's "possible" by what EA gives us. I think it's a bit close minded to think that it's not possible because EA has failed to do it.

It'll be interesting to compare individual player AI in the upcoming Backbreaker game (where the AI are given behaviours) to the current EA football. Again this could shatter the concept you suggest that it's just not possible for a "long long time" where I believe they just aren't investing enough time/resource into the right areas.

Then again, their goal is to make the most money not make the best football game, so I can't neccesarily blame them for doing what they do! Not that I like it as a consumer...

Again it's all my opinion on how they operate.

[coogrfan]

Re: Madden 11 Hints From EA

76% of Madden gamers play online. There's your answer offline franchise guys. It's not a big priority to them.

I remember people claiming only 5% of Madden gamers play online and junk like that despite me arguing otherwise.

Online franchise and other online functions such as game balance and solid gameplay are priorities for sure.

I believe it's possible that 76% of the people who responded to EA's survey may well be mainly online gamers, but I find it very hard to believe that the % for the Madden population as a whole is anywhere near that high.

[CardsFan52]

Re: Madden 11 Hints From EA

[quote=CreatineKasey;2040837887]I bet most owners of Madden never play 75 games worth of football, online or offline. Most gamers aren't like us. They don't pick 1 game and put serious hours into it. There's plenty of casual gamers and guys who bounce back and forth from new games every month or two.

Massively Multiplayer Online games have kind of set a blueprint for getting a gamer to commit to your game. Think of Modern Warfare 2 and how it "unlocks" weapons and abilities as the gamer competes. That motivates many gamers to keep going. Madden's traditional matchmaking and leaderboards lack the motivation that other games give. Those progression markers are very addicting. Online Franchise is a wonderful step in that direction. Unfortunately unless you're hardcore about creating an offseason, it falls far short for most gamers. It's not for the causal fan this season.

Madden would greatly benefit from adding in some sort of "progressing over time" online function.

Agreed, I was just thinking about this the other day, the thing is I don't know how it would work or how EA would implement it.

[ODogg]

Re: Madden NFL 11 Hints From EA (IGN)

That's why I posted in another thread how Madden should track what teams you have used, what teams you have played against and what teams you've beaten, both online and offline. An old Madden/NCAA had this and it drove me really to play the game a lot more. Plus it was cool to be spurred on to use teams, and play against teams, that I would normally not use. They could do that for an achievement or a trophy.

[SA1NT401]

Re: Madden 11 Hints From EA

The reason EA lost a ton of "casual gamers" is because they got cute and changed crap that already worked well! They go back and forth with game play issues because instead of tweaking a little thing to correct they completely change stuff = dumb! IMO

Quite the contrary...EA has Gained a TON of casual gamers...Thats been their mission since the 360 (then PS3) was released....More casuals=more $$$.

I think M11 is gonna be a step down personally. I am curious as USUAL about madden (20+ yrs with it will do that to you)...But i am pretty much done with my expectations (i treat madden as a hold over for other games).....Let down after let down after.....

[cdon2k]

Re: Madden NFL 11 Hints From EA (IGN)

Ian had mentioned a quicker experience for Madden 10 in a previous thread. He said that games were taking too long to get through (which I agree because I am married and have other responsibilities. I gave this example:

Wife, "we have to go shopping are you playing online?"

Me, "yeah"

Wife, "well, how long is it going to be?"

Me with a grimace, "an hour!?!"

Wife, "well, can't you just quit and play when we get back?"

Me embarrassed, "no, if I quit my record will be punished..."

So Ian put a fix in for Madden 10, accelerated clock, faster presentation for online, and 5 minute quarters. Then the community outrage came and we're back to that one hour mark. PS2 Madden only took about 30 minutes to complete making it easy to get multiple games in if you had some time to spare.

So you may be asking "why does Ian care so much about this issue?". Well, here's your answer - the game takes too long for even the devs to play it! Ian noticed this last year when he could get in a 30 minute game of Fifa here and there but like me couldn't find that hour needed for a game of Madden. As a result he's always playing Fifa and not Madden. I love the sim community, but they are wrong on this one, presentation should be slim to none online. Seventeen minutes of football out of 60? Say it out loud and realize that it's crazy.

[CreatineKasey]

Re: Madden NFL 11 Hints From EA (IGN)

Ian had mentioned a quicker experience for Madden 10 in a previous thread. He said that games were taking too long to get through (which I agree because I am married and have other responsibilities. I gave this example:

Wife, "we have to go shopping are you playing online?"

Me, "yeah"

Wife, "well, how long is it going to be?"

Me with a grimace, "an hour!?!"

Wife, "well, can't you just quit and play when we get back?"

Me embarrassed, "no, if I quit my record will be punished..."

So Ian put a fix in for Madden 10, accelerated clock, faster presentation for online, and 5 minute quarters. Then the community outrage came and we're back to that one hour mark. PS2 Madden only took about 30 minutes to complete making it easy to get multiple games in if you had some time to spare.

So you may be asking "why does Ian care so much about this issue?". Well, here's your answer - the game takes too long for even the devs to play it! Ian noticed this last year when he could get in a 30 minute game of Fifa here and there but like me couldn't find that hour needed for a game of Madden. As a result he's always playing Fifa and not Madden. I love the sim community, but they are wrong on this one, presentation should be slim to none online. Seventeen minutes of football out of 60? Say it out loud and realize that it's crazy.

It's not crazy. I remember reading about how much live football is actually seen during a given broadcast. It ended up being around 10 minutes in a 3 hour broadcast. Yes... it was less than a half hour!

Football works that way. People need time to select plays and set things up. The actual play lasts for mere seconds.

If they could pare down the non-football gameplay we could possibly experience a fair amount of plays in a half hour. I'd love to play 10 minute quarters and finish in 45ish minutes.