Madden NFL 11 Hints From EA (IGN)

[Boregard]

Re: Madden NFL 11 Hints From EA (IGN)

You know why everyone uses the Hitstsick for every tackle??? Because there is no button tackle that gives you a better chance at making a tackle. I just played an two entire games trying to just use the run into the guy or dive button only and I swear I missed more tackles than if I were to hitstick all game long. And I mean situations were I had the ball carrier squared up and was in perfect position to make a tackle = just stupid!!!

The idea should be that if you are "playing it safe" you should have a better success rate when making tackles - but in M10 that does not play out!!!

This is something that really annoys me about EA - there is no sense when playing M10 of risk vs reward in your play calls or decision making during the game play!!!

[Cryolemon]

Re: Madden NFL 11 Hints From EA (IGN)

This nonsense is why i hope the NFL lockout happens so that they can tear up this stupid EA-NFL contract. Say what you want but 2k is for real sim players while Madden only cares about people who don't know anything about the real game of football.

Why will a lockout "tear up this stupid EA-NFL contract."? I don't see why that would happen at all. Madden would still get made, hell there might even still be NFL games if the owners want to get replacement players.

[randers]

Re: Madden NFL 11 Hints From EA (IGN)

Here's why the average person uses just a handful of plays.

http://www.youtube.com/user/versuz2#p/u/170/Q24KR9dQl8I

Adaptive AI where were you on this vid?

looooolz. you know you have a brain. so you're supposed to be the adaptive AI.

[ODogg]

Re: Madden NFL 11 Hints From EA (IGN)

This nonsense is why i hope the NFL lockout happens so that they can tear up this stupid EA-NFL contract. Say what you want but 2k is for real sim players while Madden only cares about people who don't know anything about the real game of football.

Then what are you doing in the Madden forums?? I guess you don't know anything about the real game of football if you're here eh?

[J Masta J]

Re: Madden NFL 11 Hints From EA (IGN)

Then what are you doing in the Madden forums?? I guess you don't know anything about the real game of football if you're here eh?

He said Madden only cares about people who don't know football, not that only people who don't know football visit the Madden forum.

Apples to oranges.

[BezO]

Re: Madden NFL 11 Hints From EA (IGN)

Personally I like to think I'm the opposite of that type of gamer. I'm one who tries not to call the same plays more than twice. It has obvious advantages. The first advantage being that the user controlled pass defender legitimately has no idea what's coming and is therefore stripped of his inherent advantage to CPU players: he doesn't know what's coming either.

I'm OK with plays being called several times over. NFL teams do that all the time, but they usually mix up the formations. I'd guess Indy runs outside zone 10 times/game. Philly runs screens all day. Dallas runs the delayed lead probably 8-10 times/game. Teams have staples and run them well and often. Nothing wrong with that IMO.

On defense, many people find 1 or 2 blitzes that get through consistently and call it a day. One trick ponies are just everywhere in ranked matches. These guys bank on someone now knowing a basic counter to their strategy.

I blame this on the playbooks. I think people would run more offensive plays if there were more plays in the playbook and they were better organized. And I think tiering the defensive playbook would give gamers all the tools they need to stop plays.

We need better adaptive AI.

And we need a system that rewards setting up plays. For example, defenders should be more susceptible to play action if the offense has been succesfully rushing the ball. Draws should work better if an offense has been passing well.

Where I think things get really sad is when you see guys who play this game for money. They play just like the ranked lobby kids: 1 base play and audibling/hot routing from it. What does this tell us: It's really the best way to play if your main goal is to win at all costs. That's not good. That needs to change. There's clear logical reasons why teams don't come out in the same play every play. That logic needs to be reflected in Madden in some way.

IMO, this is nothing more than a style of play, similar to a hurry up offense. Again, I think the answer is tiering the defensive playbook so gamers have the tools to counter this.

I'd like to see mechanisms within the game that force varied playcalling. Something as simple as that would add so much to the game. Nothing kills Madden (or any video game nonetheless) more than people "gaming the game". It sucks the life out of everything you intend to do in a game. It becomes a moral battle. It's you playing a guy willing to mess with the AI for an advantage while you won't. I'd rather have the moral battle be gone.

Again, I think more defensive optioins would force more offensive variety.

Interestingly, Tecmo Super Bowl's simple concept of "guessing plays" eliminates money plays and repetitive playcalling right then and there. Tecmo does more with it's 8 plays than many Madden games do with their 300. There's a lesson to be learned there, guys.

I'd hate a counter system like Tecmo since it wouldn't involve tiered defensive play calling. Having a defensive "play" that counters an offensive play is not football. Defense is so much more than that and needs to be more than that, not only to compete with the offense, but to make defense fun, involved & dynamic

[BezO]

Re: Madden NFL 11 Hints From EA (IGN)

No disrespect taken Bezo...I played college ball except on the offensive side of the ball. I'm familiar with tiered play calling but assumed that position audibles was basically the same thing with more work involved. Thus everyone requesting tiered play calling was mostly looking to save time. Anyway, thanks for the quick knowledge session.

Cool. I'm not sure of everyone's level of football knowledge, and I tend to respond to post and talk to everyone else at the same time.

I would love to have tiered play calling in Madden 11 but if there is no gap control, stunts/delayed blitzes are not functional, and players don't defend their zones then we are back to square one with respect to people only using a handful of plays. As things stand right now there are too many game-play issues that hinder our play calls. I don't call certain plays because I know no matter what the circumstances are they will not work ever.

I'll add contain AI for every defensive call.

But yeah, it all goes together. We need better defensive assignments/AI along with more dynamic defenses. And they can't forget the animations, interaction & physics.

I'm not for the Tecmo Bowl style of countering your opponent. But I am for your defense or offense recognizing a play that has been ran 10 times and beating/stuffing it!

We definitely need adaptive AI. But it still needs to take into account certain things. I don't mind a play working often if it's set up well. Varying formations should play a part as well as ratings.

[BezO]

Re: Madden NFL 11 Hints From EA (IGN)

You know why everyone uses the Hitstsick for every tackle??? Because there is no button tackle that gives you a better chance at making a tackle. I just played an two entire games trying to just use the run into the guy or dive button only and I swear I missed more tackles than if I were to hitstick all game long. And I mean situations were I had the ball carrier squared up and was in perfect position to make a tackle = just stupid!!!

The idea should be that if you are "playing it safe" you should have a better success rate when making tackles - but in M10 that does not play out!!!

This is something that really annoys me about EA - there is no sense when playing M10 of risk vs reward in your play calls or decision making during the game play!!!

We need:

-wrap/grab tackle - it should be the safest tackle, yet maybe allow for more yac
-aggresive tackle - it should stop ball carreirs in their tracks, be good for goal line, short yardage and situations where the ball carrier or WR can't see the tackler, but be more susceptible to jukes, spins, ect
-low tackle - it should be for smaller and/or bad tackling defenders, and it needs to also be more susceptible to jukes, spins, ect.
-desparation/dive tackle - it should be the least effective, mainly used for trying to trip up ball carriers nearly out of reach

And of course, the success rate and animations should be based on ratings & context.

[ODogg]

Re: Madden NFL 11 Hints From EA (IGN)

when you say "we need" are you saying we need a button or button combo to pick which type of tackle ourselves or we need an animation that is triggered automatically?

[BezO]

Re: Madden NFL 11 Hints From EA (IGN)

when you say "we need" are you saying we need a button or button combo to pick which type of tackle ourselves or we need an animation that is triggered automatically?

Both.

At minimum, we need a tackle button, one that triggers a wrap tackle. It's the most common in the NFL and doesn't exist in Madden.

But the animations should be contextual, accounting for angle, size & ratings.

I know there aren't enough buttons for 4 types of tackles. I'd settle for the dive button becoming the basic tackle button, triggering contextual animations... wrap/grab tackles, cut tackles, ect, and the hit stick becoming the aggressive/desparation tackle button, again triggering contextual animations... smashing hits, diving tackles, trip ups, ect.

[ODogg]

Re: Madden NFL 11 Hints From EA (IGN)

You know i'd like to extrapolate on what you said about goal line and short yardage. I'd like to see a clear difference in urgency and method of tackling when it's short yardage and/or goal line situations. As it is now I don't see it. If they could add a sense of urgency and more of a swarm to the ball in short yardage we'd also see the occasional play where it's 4th and inches near midfield and a running back makes it past the initial line somehow and runs 50 yards for a TD. As it is now that is nearly non-existent.

It really all goes back to the way the AI is programmed. The players in the real NFL are more aware of down and distance in general and play accordingly. They tackle someone completely different at the 7 yard mark when it's 3rd and 23 (they stand them up, do a safe tackle, wait for teammate) then they do when it's a 7 yard gain and it's 3rd and 7 (uptmost urgency to bring down the ball carrier and drive him backwards).

In the game the players seemingly tackle in both situatons exactly the same. That's wh it's so frustrating to see someone get a 7 yard gain, break a tackle on 3rd and 19 and scamper for the first down. Yes it happens but not as much as it does in Madden. And on the flip side there is nothing more frustrating than it being 3rd and 7 and the guy runs up and actually drags the ball carrier forward a yard or two for the first down.

I will say this aspect of the game has gotten much better since the PS2 days, especially with the dragging offensive players forward for 4 yards like we all saw so much in the PS2 days, but the bottom line is it's still not where it needs to be. Bottom line, we need much, much, MUCH more situational awareness from our virtual teammates.

[BezO]

Re: Madden NFL 11 Hints From EA (IGN)

You know i'd like to extrapolate on what you said about goal line and short yardage. I'd like to see a clear difference in urgency and method of tackling when it's short yardage and/or goal line situations. As it is now I don't see it. If they could add a sense of urgency and more of a swarm to the ball in short yardage we'd also see the occasional play where it's 4th and inches near midfield and a running back makes it past the initial line somehow and runs 50 yards for a TD. As it is now that is nearly non-existent.

Agreed! With the extra effort on goal line & short yardage plays, I'd also like to see defenses more susceptible to the play action pass. Actually, I'd like some control over my guys selling out to stop the run and/or looking for pass, but combine it with awareness ratings.

I'd also like to see different blocking interaction on goal line & short yardage plays. On runs & play action, o-linemen almost always submarine block, and d-linemen are trying to stay low as well.

It really all goes back to the way the AI is programmed. The players in the real NFL are more aware of down and distance in general and play accordingly. They tackle someone completely different at the 7 yard mark when it's 3rd and 23 (they stand them up, do a safe tackle, wait for teammate) then they do when it's a 7 yard gain and it's 3rd and 7 (uptmost urgency to bring down the ball carrier and drive him backwards).

In the game the players seemingly tackle in both situatons exactly the same. That's wh it's so frustrating to see someone get a 7 yard gain, break a tackle on 3rd and 19 and scamper for the first down. Yes it happens but not as much as it does in Madden. And on the flip side there is nothing more frustrating than it being 3rd and 7 and the guy runs up and actually drags the ball carrier forward a yard or two for the first down.

I will say this aspect of the game has gotten much better since the PS2 days, especially with the dragging offensive players forward for 4 yards like we all saw so much in the PS2 days, but the bottom line is it's still not where it needs to be. Bottom line, we need much, much, MUCH more situational awareness from our virtual teammates.

Agreed! It needs to spill over to the offense too... RBs putting more effort out near the goal line & first down markers, ball carriers trying to get out of bounds, QBs looking down field more, ect. This is all CPU controlled stuff of course.

[KBLover]

Re: Madden NFL 11 Hints From EA (IGN)

You know i'd like to extrapolate on what you said about goal line and short yardage. I'd like to see a clear difference in urgency and method of tackling when it's short yardage and/or goal line situations. As it is now I don't see it. If they could add a sense of urgency and more of a swarm to the ball in short yardage we'd also see the occasional play where it's 4th and inches near midfield and a running back makes it past the initial line somehow and runs 50 yards for a TD. As it is now that is nearly non-existent.

It really all goes back to the way the AI is programmed. The players in the real NFL are more aware of down and distance in general and play accordingly. They tackle someone completely different at the 7 yard mark when it's 3rd and 23 (they stand them up, do a safe tackle, wait for teammate) then they do when it's a 7 yard gain and it's 3rd and 7 (uptmost urgency to bring down the ball carrier and drive him backwards).

In the game the players seemingly tackle in both situatons exactly the same. That's wh it's so frustrating to see someone get a 7 yard gain, break a tackle on 3rd and 19 and scamper for the first down. Yes it happens but not as much as it does in Madden. And on the flip side there is nothing more frustrating than it being 3rd and 7 and the guy runs up and actually drags the ball carrier forward a yard or two for the first down.

I will say this aspect of the game has gotten much better since the PS2 days, especially with the dragging offensive players forward for 4 yards like we all saw so much in the PS2 days, but the bottom line is it's still not where it needs to be. Bottom line, we need much, much, MUCH more situational awareness from our virtual teammates.

Dear EA AI programmers,

Please read this and post it on your monitors at all times.
Keep as a reminder of one of the things you can do to really improve the game.

Sincerely,
AI player lover, KBLover.

[Phixius]

Re: Madden NFL 11 Hints From EA (IGN)

I'm not happy with the direction EA is heading with Madden. What's wrong with the clock settings? Football doesn't end in 20 minutes. Players need time to develop their gameplan and make necessary adjustments. With a faster time, I don't see that possible.

A lot of players don't use their entire playbook. I agree with that but that has more to do with plays not being effective in the first place. This possibly could go back to the A.I. not being effective as well. I also prefer to use the hit stick over diving because hit stick is the only effective way to tackle someone. I say using the right analog stick to the right or left is a great way to use reach tackle or hold a trigger button as a modifier to do a wrap tackle.

I see that EA is trying to target the wrong audience (mainly people who just don't care about the NFL). There are millions of NFL fans throughout the world. They'll be the one that buys the game. If some person wanted to try a football game, they should do some research on how the game is played.

[Jukeman]

Wasn't adaptive AI put in place to make gamers use their whole playbook? Madden 11 is showing every sign that it just wants to bring in new/casual gamers. Most people who liked Madden 10 still felt it was just a step in the right direction and I don't see the leap from Madden 10-11 being that great right now.

Bingo, Im done with this..

"And thats all I have to say about that"