IWC...

[Streets]

This thread was spawned from the official Wrestlemania thread. I didn't want to take it off topic, and I'm really interested in this discussion, so I thought I'd create a new thread.

So here's the thing... if I watch a show and criticize 85% of it, am indifferent about 10% of it, and truly enjoy only 5%, then what's the point? That's the only thing I never understood about wrestling fans who just constantly complain about the product.

I feel like a lot of people- and I see it at the live shows, bars where I used to watch PPV's, internet message boards, etc... they have a tendency to say these soundbites like "[Mid-card Wrestler X] is getting held back", "TDJ is the next big thing" (this one may be true, jury's still out), "[Everyone who's popular] sucks!", "[Everyone who's popular] is only there because of politics (or friends with Vince or HHH), "[Unknown wrestler from Japan] is greater than any of these WWE hacks".

And I wonder if that's the appeal to wrestling. It's sort of the illusion of being in a secret society. I get to see the man behind the curtain, and spout off all of my insider information and look "cool" or "in the know" while totally bashing a product in the process. To me, if I was as cynical as some of these wrestling fans (and I don't want to generalize all IWC fans... I just couldn't think of a better word... but you all know the type), I would wonder why I even watch the product at some point.

I would love to hear others opinion on this subject, because it boggles my mind. Also, is the IWC now the majority? Some times it seems like it. I feel like I try hard to avoid spoilers and just enjoy the product but hear them all the time! The "insider info" is not too insider anymore and I literally stumble onto this stuff (we all knew Mania's card for a long time). I feel like there are very few people left who try to just enjoy the product as is without trying to see behind the curtain.

[OSUFan_88]

Re: IWC...

I think the Internet has really taken it's toll on Wrestling as a mystic and you REALLY have to try hard to avoid spoilers.

That being said, I do bitch and complain about a lot, particularly Cena-man, but I still enjoy the show. Hell, even sometimes I enjoy Cena's part of the show!

I have often wondered why some people don't get the push and how others gain quick stardom, how HHH is still wrestling after blowing out his quad like 3 times now. Sometimes I completely hate what I'm watching and sometimes I like it.

I imagine the only reason people complain is because they feel connected or disconnected from a certain star. Wrestling is not like anything on TV, as it's scripted and the finishes are already known before the competition. That is why people complain, I think, because when they don't agree, they know they can blast the decision and not say it's rotten luck.

I don't know, I'm babbling on now and really random...but I think I pretty much got my thoughts out there.

[Qb]

Re: IWC...

I think you make some great points, Streets. I can easily see where ignorance (of the dirt/backstage stuff) is bliss for a wrestling fan.

[vernond]

Re: IWC...

I think a lot of the IWC wants to feel like they know something that the general audience doesn't and be one step ahead of the game. That's why they want to get behind the "next big thing" and then when they make it they find some reason to not be behind them. Look at HHH and HBK before they hit the true main event status they were the greatest thing since sliced bread. Then everyone tore them down once they got there. I think the IWC wants to constantly prove their knowledge of the business and tries to stay ahead of the curve.

[scarface scotty]

Re: IWC...

I wouldn't say that I've been a wrestling fan all my life. I started watching it during the Monday night wars. I was a big fan of WCW...they just had a wide variety of wrestlers and a really deep cruiserweight division which I loved. Really the only reason I watched WWE back then was because of Stone Cold, The Rock, and hotties like Trish Stratus. I didn't watch them for the wrestling abilities...they were just entertaining from the things they said to the crazy stunts they pulled (I still love Stone Cold hosing down Vince McMahon from the beer truck). But once WCW folded, really my only choice was WWE. They eventually got rid of all the people that I liked that came from WCW and ECW and even some of the younger talents that were being groomed within the company (Jeff Hardy, Elijah Burke). I stopped watching for several years. I started watching again recently because I really liked SvR 2010 after I rented it and eventually bought it. I'm just really disappointed in what WWE has become...especially Raw. I'm hating the PG rated content they are putting out now. I mean Raw runs from 9-11, that should be mature entertainment IMO. Not to mention the length and number of matches have gone down considerably. I hate Vince coming down to the ring and gloating for 20 minutes straight. Then they'll have a two minute match. Then John Cena will come down and cut a 30 minute sleep inducing promo. Then a three minute match. Then HHH and HBK will tape Hornswoggle to a skateboard and push him down the hallway. Then the main event, a 5 minute match that usually always involves John Cena. So pardon me if I'm a little cynical. I'd watch TNA but I think they're even worse. So I'll watch NXT and the occasional Smackdown and keep praying these young guys will get their shot someday.

[Streets]

Re: IWC...

I think the Internet has really taken it's toll on Wrestling as a mystic and you REALLY have to try hard to avoid spoilers.

That being said, I do bitch and complain about a lot, particularly Cena-man, but I still enjoy the show. Hell, even sometimes I enjoy Cena's part of the show!

I have often wondered why some people don't get the push and how others gain quick stardom, how HHH is still wrestling after blowing out his quad like 3 times now. Sometimes I completely hate what I'm watching and sometimes I like it.

I imagine the only reason people complain is because they feel connected or disconnected from a certain star. Wrestling is not like anything on TV, as it's scripted and the finishes are already known before the competition. That is why people complain, I think, because when they don't agree, they know they can blast the decision and not say it's rotten luck.

I don't know, I'm babbling on now and really random...but I think I pretty much got my thoughts out there.

No doubt man. I complain a lot of the time too. I hate what Edge's character has become. I hate Sheamus and the fact that he's being pushed to the moon. If I had my way everyone would be heels (Punk, Cena, Edge, Orton, HHH, Batista... imagine a world where they're all heels screwing eachother over). I mean honestly, complaining and not liking something is one thing. But I come at it from the perspective of a fan. I don't think I could do better (though I often post ideas that I have on this site a lot just for the hell of it), and even if I dislike part of what is put out, I understand it is a business and there is a much larger majority than myself who does like the super-faces like Hardy, Rey, Cena (though I do love him), etc. So I cheer for my guys (the heels), and I boo the faces, and I enjoy the product for what it is.

I think the internet has taken away one of the biggest things I loved about the attitude era, which is the surprise element. Now we know months in advance if someone is going to make a return or something big is going to happen and it just kills those huge OMG! pop moments.

That immediacy to turn in next week to see the surprise is gone. The WWE knows that fans will find stuff out from other sites so I think they do less surprises and will hype up returns themselves, and use that as a hook. I think the way it was before was better for business (the ratings) and for me as a fan, but this is the way it is now with everyone posting insider info and spoilers ad nauseum.

[Streets]

Re: IWC...

I wouldn't say that I've been a wrestling fan all my life. I started watching it during the Monday night wars. I was a big fan of WCW...they just had a wide variety of wrestlers and a really deep cruiserweight division which I loved. Really the only reason I watched WWE back then was because of Stone Cold, The Rock, and hotties like Trish Stratus. I didn't watch them for the wrestling abilities...they were just entertaining from the things they said to the crazy stunts they pulled (I still love Stone Cold hosing down Vince McMahon from the beer truck). But once WCW folded, really my only choice was WWE. They eventually got rid of all the people that I liked that came from WCW and ECW and even some of the younger talents that were being groomed within the company (Jeff Hardy, Elijah Burke). I stopped watching for several years. I started watching again recently because I really liked SvR 2010 after I rented it and eventually bought it. I'm just really disappointed in what WWE has become...especially Raw. I'm hating the PG rated content they are putting out now. I mean Raw runs from 9-11, that should be mature entertainment IMO. Not to mention the length and number of matches have gone down considerably. I hate Vince coming down to the ring and gloating for 20 minutes straight. Then they'll have a two minute match. Then John Cena will come down and cut a 30 minute sleep inducing promo. Then a three minute match. Then HHH and HBK will tape Hornswoggle to a skateboard and push him down the hallway. Then the main event, a 5 minute match that usually always involves John Cena. So pardon me if I'm a little cynical. I'd watch TNA but I think they're even worse. So I'll watch NXT and the occasional Smackdown and keep praying these young guys will get their shot someday.

You did a really good job of explaining why you are cynical of the product, and I think I understand that. What I don't understand is why you still watch it?? I know you say that since WCW folded and TNA is god-awful, the WWE is your "only choice"... but you always have the choice to turn of the TV, change the channel, go outside, create your own storylines on 2010 where Triple H opens the show and Shelton Benjamin is the WWE champion, etc.

If my sole reason for watching is to hope and pray that one of my guys gets pushed, then I think that for me it would be a waste of time (though I have seen Angle, Orton, Cena, and Miz pushed in my time as a fan). I'd rather go to the gym and play basketball, catch up on some work, spend time with the GF, watch any number of the TV shows, movies, or Rockets games that I love, engage in discussions like this on OS, hang with friends etc.

A whim and a prayer is not worth my time which is why I wonder if the IWC gets something else out of putting down the product. 5 hours a week plus PPV's is too much time to invest in something I dislike.

[scarface scotty]

Re: IWC...

I understand about what you mean in wasting time watching it. I don't even bother watching Raw anymore. I like a few of the guys on NXT, and Smackdown is usually more hit than miss. I guess it's NXT that really keeps me watching. Even though the guys aren't competing for belts or anything, it's still nice to see that they are the main focal point of the show.

[goh]

Re: IWC...

How are we supposed to know if it's any good if we didn't watch it?
If we do watch it and it isn't good shouldn't we say so?

We dont know when it's going to be good or not in the case of Raw,the PPVs,half of TNA's shows and possibly NXT (the spoilers only come like an hour before the show actually airs in that case,I think,I haven't read any NXT spoilers yet but I see them up there). That's why I read the SD spoilers,to see if should make any sort of effort to watch it. It's taped every week so I'll have some idea if it's any good or not but the rest are live or almost live.

They could tell us there'll be a Bryan vs. HBK match on NXT next week and people would want to see that but we end up watching and Miz ruins it in less than 3 minutes. So then the people that wanted to see it are going to say it sucked. Did anyone see it coming the first time Punk cashed in his MitB? Raw might've been crap the 3 weeks before that (I don't specifically remember) but then that happend and made it awesome.

[55]

Re: IWC...

How are we supposed to know if it's any good if we didn't watch it?
If we do watch it and it isn't good shouldn't we say so?

We dont know when it's going to be good or not in the case of Raw,the PPVs,half of TNA's shows and possibly NXT (the spoilers only come like an hour before the show actually airs in that case,I think,I haven't read any NXT spoilers yet but I see them up there). That's why I read the SD spoilers,to see if should make any sort of effort to watch it. It's taped every week so I'll have some idea if it's any good or not but the rest are live or almost live.

They could tell us there'll be a Bryan vs. HBK match on NXT next week and people would want to see that but we end up watching and Miz ruins it in less than 3 minutes. So then the people that wanted to see it are going to say it sucked. Did anyone see it coming the first time Punk cashed in his MitB? Raw might've been crap the 3 weeks before that (I don't specifically remember) but then that happend and made it awesome.

Spot on, my friend.

Seriously, I watch it because I enjoy half of the wrestlers/storylines very much. It's just the other half that sucks. However, the card for WM is pretty much spot on from top to bottom so you won't hear any complaints from me at the moment.

Watching the WWE is sort of like a greasy pizza to me. Sure, it tastes great but then it gives you indigestion. Yet you keep eating eat because the great taste is burned into your brain.

I also buy every PPV there is and don't watch torrents or illegal streams. Therefore, since I am actually paying for the product I feel that I have a right to praise it or complain about it as I see fit.

[DJ]

Re: IWC...

I do think part of the allure of dissing the product is that it makes us fans feel like we're more educated on the product than the "casual" fans that just tune in every week, watch the PPV's and attend the live shows.

I don't think this is Internet-related, but it does tie in to the fan aspect. If you're like me and have been watching wrestling (I refuse to call it sports entertainment, WWE) for 20-plus years, a lot of the "surprise" element of pro wrestling is gone.

After the Benoit murder-suicide, I stopped watching wrestling. Benoit was one guy I really enjoyed to watch in the ring and when he committed that ungodly act, I just lost a lot of my passion for the business.

(Here's the point of that Benoit sidenote)

In the past few months, I've tuned in to RAW here and there and caught glimpses of Smackdown. Despite the fact that I haven't watched much in the past 2.5 years, the shows didn't feel all that different and I was able to quickly figure out not only what was going to happen in the show I was watching, but what the future plans of WWE were.

It's not like it was back in the 80's when I was a kid and had no clue what was going on. The shows always felt fresh. Same with the Monday Night Wars. I'd watch WCW and WWE each week (I wasn't reading websites or newsletters then) and just enjoyed them for what they were.

Once I stumbled upon the pro wrestling websites, I was never able to watch the product the same way. I kept looking for "inside" secrets, thinking I was cool if I picked up on what the latest injury signal by the referee was or figuring out how many spots were blown in a match.

I don't know if I'll ever be able to go back and just watch the shows as a casual fan because the "smart fan" is almost hard-wired in me. I'm trying my best not be overly critical and trying not to dissect every little flaw in a match and just enjoy (or not if it's really bad, i.e. TNA) the product for what it is.

[TheMatrix31]

Re: IWC...

I feel like the internet has ruined wrestling.

Simple as that.

[JiggidyJames]

Re: IWC...

IWC is a vague term nowadays. Anyone who talks about or searches the web for news/articles is a part of it. From the kids who post on the WWE Universe forum to 25 year olds overanalyzing 30 year old Memphis Wrestling TV episodes, we're all under the same umbrella. Like with any community, there's different groups within.

You can't say the internet has ruined wrestling. All that stuff that was "suprising" ten years ago was spoiled on the 'net (441, Rajah, Scoops, WrestleBoard, etc.), it was just a little bit harder to find. The sheets have been around for like 30 years. Spoilers have been around since the start since most shows were taped. It's just that the base has gotten bigger with more availibilty.

I agree about the cynicism. WWE has always been for kids and the LCD of society (really, all American wrestling the exception of St. Louis was). Nobody is really saying anything that wasn't said 5, 10, 15, 20+ years ago. The same people who hate Cena, hated Hogan. The same people who beat off to Dragon Gate, beat off to NJPW. The people who talked up ROH big three years ago traded AJPW tapes. The older crowd that bashes WWE were Southern wrasslin' fans, or thought ECW style was the pinnacle or some nonsense. Point is, all the criticisms are nothing new, just with new names. And even they haven't ruined wrestling because they're like the roaches of the fanbase -- around forever and not going anywhere.

If any fan is responsible for "ruining" wrestling, it's the ones raised on the Attitude Era who think that's what wrestling should be. But I can't blame them, or any type of fan. I can only diasgree with their views, which is what makes being part of the IWC fun.

[TheMatrix31]

Re: IWC...

That's just it. It was much harder to be spoiled without the internet. You actually had to go LOOK for underground info before the internet and spoilers started to pop around. Nowadays, you can't have a simple discussion of a live event without someone throwing in "Gee, this was a stupid way to do it, but I guess it makes sense since ____ is coming back." or "Man, this is going to be the perfect way to set up the ___ v ___ feud they've wanted for so long."

Maybe it's just me, who knows.

[55]

Re: IWC...

If any fan is responsible for "ruining" wrestling, it's the ones raised on the Attitude Era who think that's what wrestling should be. But I can't blame them, or any type of fan. I can only diasgree with their views, which is what makes being part of the IWC fun.

A+ post. Would read again. Especially the bold part.