Backbreaker Multiplayer Hands-on and Videos (IGN)

[roadman]

Re: Backbreaker Multiplayer Hands-on and Videos (IGN)

And quite the double standard around here too. For years people accepted crap from Tiburon/Madden and built it up to be more than it was. For YEARS. Now people are placing totally unrealistic expectations on a first year, non-licensed title. Just as they did with APF. The game will get killed before it even has a chance to start, then these same people will sit around crying "Why can't someone [try to] make another game?". It's silly to expect Backbreaker in it's first effort to directly compete with Madden next gen which is going into it's 6th iteration.

There are key things APF was doing THREE YEARS AGO that Tiburon still hasn't gotten around to being able to implement in Madden. Yet APF died imo in large part because the "hardcore" community expected way too much from the game too soon, given it's disadvantages. The very ones that should be most understanding of the situation are the ones that are the most critical/least willing to nurture a product so that we might have at least a little choice, given EA's licensing stranglehold on North American football. I said it before, will say it again - I don't know why any devs even bother.

Agree with some of this, disagree with a portion of it.

I don't think you can fault the hard core community with lack of sales for APF. How about faulting the lack of marketing? If it wasn't for the net, I wouldn't have know APF was coming out.

I think the general public(outside the net) decided they didn't want to purchase a generic football game.

I feel that is where you can place a majority of the blame.

[spankdatazz22]

Re: Backbreaker Multiplayer Hands-on and Videos (IGN)

Agree with some of this, disagree with a portion of it.

I don't think you can fault the hard core community with lack of sales for APF. How about faulting the lack of marketing? If it wasn't for the net, I wouldn't have know APF was coming out.

I think the general public(outside the net) decided they didn't want to purchase a generic football game.

I feel that is where you can place a majority of the blame.

I didn't mean to imply the community was totally to blame for the failure of APF; there were many reasons. I just think the hardcore community - which begged and pleaded for a game - was one of them. There was 2K's own shortcomings. Idiot sites like IGN going out of their way to speak negative of the game.

My point was the community that should've been the most knowledgeable about the situation and how difficult it might be to make an unlicensed game were likely the ones that were the most critical and unforgiving. Only to be using APF years later in trying to school Madden devs on how to implement certain features/enhancements. For example, not saying the whole throwing off the back foot thing should be forgiven, but how long did it take Tiburon to remove it from Madden? WITH every advantage that Tiburon has? I think it didn't occur until year 3. Expecting the world from a smaller dev team, with no previously established football game development history to build on, without the NFL/NCAA licenses to use as a blueprint... is ridiculous imo.

[roadman]

Re: Backbreaker Multiplayer Hands-on and Videos (IGN)

I didn't mean to imply the community was totally to blame for the failure of APF; there were many reasons. I just think the hardcore community - which begged and pleaded for a game - was one of them. There was 2K's own shortcomings. Idiot sites like IGN going out of their way to speak negative of the game.

My point was the community that should've been the most knowledgeable about the situation and how difficult it might be to make an unlicensed game were likely the ones that were the most critical and unforgiving. Only to be using APF years later in trying to school Madden devs on how to implement certain features/enhancements. For example, not saying the whole throwing off the back foot thing should be forgiven, but how long did it take Tiburon to remove it from Madden? WITH every advantage that Tiburon has? I think it didn't occur until year 3. Expecting the world from a smaller dev team, with no previously established football game development history to build on, without the NFL/NCAA licenses to use as a blueprint... is ridiculous imo.

Ok, now I understand what you are saying, and for the most part agree.

It just depends what audience BB wants to capture. They've had a few years to work with it.

It's difficult to cater to everyone.

[sb24]

Re: Backbreaker Multiplayer Hands-on and Videos (IGN)

Will do! That's the point of me going on here... to talk about what I see on media releases. I've weighed positives and negatives over and over. Apparently you only see the negatives. It's alright. I have no agenda

That was funny. To be honest, I really just kind of scan these threads for your post because of your ability to see both sides. Are you still going to get it? Im thinking I may want to wait for a price drop but I also want to support them enough that they get a chance at a second game.

[CreatineKasey]

Re: Backbreaker Multiplayer Hands-on and Videos (IGN)

That was funny. To be honest, I really just kind of scan these threads for your post because of your ability to see both sides. Are you still going to get it? Im thinking I may want to wait for a price drop but I also want to support them enough that they get a chance at a second game.

Thanks for the kind words. I see both ends of "fanboyism" from different brands. It's all ridiculous. For a guy like me who hails APF as the best playing football game ever, I sure get lumped into the EA fanboy group a lot just because I won't let concerns slip by.

Currently I'm in the "wait and see" group also. I'm not paying $50 for this game in the state I see it. The chess match of football drives me more than the "graphics". If this game isn't solid in fundamental areas of football, it'll drive me nuts. If the game proves solid and up to snuff, I'll nab it pretty quick.

I'm a college student and I don't have enough money to throw around. If I purchase a game it needs to be something I'm willing to put some good time into.

Sb24, what do you think about the concerns some of us have raised so far? Think they can correct that kind of stuff before it comes out. Really, it's anyone's guess. We don't develop games. We don't know the team personally. The positive side of me says anything can happen. The pessimist says "3 years of preaching realism and we're seeing back foot throws into triple coverage 30 yards downfield for scores?!"

Hey, in the end at least we get this CHOICE at a new game! It's been awhile...

[sb24]

Re: Backbreaker Multiplayer Hands-on and Videos (IGN)

Thanks for the kind words. I see both ends of "fanboyism" from different brands. It's all ridiculous. For a guy like me who hails APF as the best playing football game ever, I sure get lumped into the EA fanboy group a lot just because I won't let concerns slip by.

Currently I'm in the "wait and see" group also. I'm not paying $50 for this game in the state I see it. The chess match of football drives me more than the "graphics". If this game isn't solid in fundamental areas of football, it'll drive me nuts. If the game proves solid and up to snuff, I'll nab it pretty quick.

I'm a college student and I don't have enough money to throw around. If I purchase a game it needs to be something I'm willing to put some good time into.

Sb24, what do you think about the concerns some of us have raised so far? Think they can correct that kind of stuff before it comes out. Really, it's anyone's guess. We don't develop games. We don't know the team personally. The positive side of me says anything can happen. The pessimist says "3 years of preaching realism and we're seeing back foot throws into triple coverage 30 yards downfield for scores?!"

Hey, in the end at least we get this CHOICE at a new game! It's been awhile...

Having a choice is great!

I was disappointed with the videos. They will correct a few things but nothing major. Just like you say, the one that sticks out is throwing off the back foot into coverage. It may be toned down but its probably going to be an issue.

Personally I think this is going to be a company that will listen to the customer complaints so I think these things will be corrected down the line. I think this is where the euphoria engine is not being used. I think the physics engine is used for tackles but not for the throws. Once they get a better understand of the tech and start to get some financial support, they can start to correct these things.

That being said, I see alot of positives to this game. I see lots of small things I like and that I think will start to put the heat on other devlopers. If people take the time to play this game they will see some things they want in other games. I do think this game is going to be a pain in some ways to play but im sure if we had a group of guys like the ACQB we could have a blast even with its short commings. Since im not expecting much, those videos didnt lower my expectations at all. What this game may open up down the road is far more important to me than how the game plays May 25th.

I noticed a very common theme to my post.... "I think"

[DLaren]

Re: Backbreaker Multiplayer Hands-on and Videos (IGN)

Expecting the world from a smaller dev team, with no previously established football game development history to build on, without the NFL/NCAA licenses to use as a blueprint... is ridiculous imo.

It's a case of placing expectations way too high.

For YEARS. Now people are placing totally unrealistic expectations on a first year, non-licensed title.

I have (or had) extremely high expectations for 'Backbreaker', so I feel like these types of posts (that have been made by many users in this forum) are speaking directly to me...

In response, I'm simply wondering why I'm being chastised for taking the 'BackBreaker' developement team, and the 'Backbreaker' community at their word...which have alluded to this game "redefining sports-gaming forever".

When a certain segment of the 'hardcore community', along with the developement team themselves, hails an upcoming-game as a benchmark for all future sports-games (which in turn, sends my expectations sky-high), then I see videos and read information that don't quite live-up to such statements, am I wrong to express dissappointment?

[spankdatazz22]

Re: Backbreaker Multiplayer Hands-on and Videos (IGN)

I have (or had) extremely high expectations for 'Backbreaker', so I feel like these types of posts (that have been made by many users in this forum) are speaking directly to me...

In response, I'm simply wondering why I'm being chastised for taking the 'BackBreaker' developement team, and the 'Backbreaker' community at their word...which have alluded to this game "redefining sports-gaming forever".

When a certain segment of the 'hardcore community', along with the developement team themselves, hails an upcoming-game as a benchmark for all future sports-games (which in turn, sends my expectations sky-high), then I see videos and read information that don't quite live-up to such statements, am I wrong to express dissappointment?

I wasn't speaking directly to you but overall at people that have (imo) unrealistically high expectations of the game. What development team isn't going to speak highly of their own game? They're trying to sell a product. They're not going to come in saying their game is average, give it some time, etc. There isn't a development team I can think of that hasn't spoken of highly of their own game, be it a sports game, action game, or whatever.

The reality of the situation is this is their first football game. They don't have the NFL or NCAA licenses to use as a blueprint. They won't have real players, stadiums, teams, etc. in their game. They don't have access to real playbooks. It'd be hard to make a game even with those advantages; it's that much harder to do so without them. It's one thing to have optimism, another thing to expect greatness given the situation. That's like me saying it's realistic to have the same expectations of the Pittsburgh Pirates as I would the New York Yankees. More should be expected of the Yankees, they're in a much more advantageous position than the Pirates are.

And even then I don't think it speaks to the Madden/Backbreaker situation. If Backbreaker manages to trump Madden in certain gameplay/presentation facets, yes it speaks to the the ability of the Backbreaker dev team but to me it'd speak more poorly of Tiburon given the stranglehold they have on American football game development to get trumped by a smaller team making their first football game, ever. I'm playing APF this morning for the first time in probably a year and I've witnessed things in less than a half that I've NEVER seen in Madden in 5+years now. And I feel safe in saying I won't see in Backbreaker.

[TheWatcher]

Re: Backbreaker Multiplayer Hands-on and Videos (IGN)

I have (or had) extremely high expectations for 'Backbreaker', so I feel like these types of posts (that have been made by many users in this forum) are speaking directly to me...

In response, I'm simply wondering why I'm being chastised for taking the 'BackBreaker' developement team, and the 'Backbreaker' community at their word...which have alluded to this game "redefining sports-gaming forever".

When a certain segment of the 'hardcore community', along with the developement team themselves, hails an upcoming-game as a benchmark for all future sports-games (which in turn, sends my expectations sky-high), then I see videos and read information that don't quite live-up to such statements, am I wrong to express dissappointment?

You're not wrong at all for taking a company up on their word and expecting them to deliver. That's something all of us should be doing more of.

Where I think the problems start to creep up is when we start looking at our disappointments in the current field and expecting BackBreaker to be the end-all-be-all answer to it all.

See, I expect BackBreaker to redefine how animations in 3D Football games work. It will accomplish that, that's a formality at this point in my mind.

But, people disappointed in Madden franchise mode for example, are hoping BackBreaker will be the answer. They are going to be in for a disappointment, because it's not even going to be as deep as Madden's.

People expecting perfect AI are going to be disappointed. AI is hard to program in a football game. It's not simply a processing issue, it's the current state of knowledge and skill that we're at in this point in time. Knowledge took a massive hit in the football sector because of the lack of development in this genre over the past 5+ years. NM is not selling an AI engine or trying to sell us on AI advancement that makes reactions smarter and more true to football. They're selling a new system of animating. There aren't going to be any major AI leaps if any in this game, and there will be problems. Disappointment will be big here for those looking for the answer.

[t11]

Re: Backbreaker Multiplayer Hands-on and Videos (IGN)

You're not wrong at all for taking a company up on their word and expecting them to deliver. That's something all of us should be doing more of.

Where I think the problems start to creep up is when we start looking at our disappointments in the current field and expecting BackBreaker to be the end-all-be-all answer to it all.

See, I expect BackBreaker to redefine how animations in 3D Football games work. It will accomplish that, that's a formality at this point in my mind.

But, people disappointed in Madden franchise mode for example, are hoping BackBreaker will be the answer. They are going to be in for a disappointment, because it's not even going to be as deep as Madden's.

People expecting perfect AI are going to be disappointed. AI is hard to program in a football game. It's not simply a processing issue, it's the current state of knowledge and skill that we're at in this point in time. Knowledge took a massive hit in the football sector because of the lack of development in this genre over the past 5+ years. NM is not selling an AI engine or trying to sell us on AI advancement that makes reactions smarter and more true to football. They're selling a new system of animating. There aren't going to be any major AI leaps if any in this game, and there will be problems. Disappointment will be big here for those looking for the answer.

ok. That post is a 10/10 and you are now my deity. lol.

This post holds a ton of truth behind it. You have to see BB as what it is, rather than what Madden/2k isn't.

[BigZell20]

Re: Backbreaker Multiplayer Hands-on and Videos (IGN)

ok. That post is a 10/10 and you are now my deity. lol.

This post holds a ton of truth behind it. You have to see BB as what it is, rather than what Madden/2k isn't.

Agree with both you guys, this game isn't Natural Motion's rebutle to Madden. It's a game of its own, not meant to fill in the blanks of the Madden and 2k series.

Just because other games don't do something well, doesn't mean this game is out to fix it or do it better. Natural Motion has never claimed much of anything about this game other than the tackle engine being state of the art, yet somehow the online boards have turned it into the great debate about whether it's going to be sim, have this, have that...blah blah blah...

[duncan54matt]

Re: Backbreaker Multiplayer Hands-on and Videos (IGN)

Agree with both you guys, this game isn't Natural Motion's rebutle to Madden. It's a game of its own, not meant to fill in the blanks of the Madden and 2k series.

Just because other games don't do something well, doesn't mean this game is out to fix it or do it better. Natural Motion has never claimed much of anything about this game other than the tackle engine being state of the art, yet somehow the online boards have turned it into the great debate about whether it's going to be sim, have this, have that...blah blah blah...

true dat true dat ..... (lol)

[TheWatcher]

Re: Backbreaker Multiplayer Hands-on and Videos (IGN)

ok. That post is a 10/10 and you are now my deity. lol.

This post holds a ton of truth behind it. You have to see BB as what it is, rather than what Madden/2k isn't.

Okay, but I have to tell you... I'm a mean deity. I never forgive

[KBLover]

Re: Backbreaker Multiplayer Hands-on and Videos (IGN)

There aren't going to be any major AI leaps if any in this game, and there will be problems. Disappointment will be big here for those looking for the answer.

If that's true, you may have made my decision for me.

This is the part of the game I think is lacking most. I can deal with the graphical problems, just not stupid players (especially when far too many stupid mistakes are made be players rated to be intelligent) and awful playcalling that gets mitigated by overpowered AI players or the like (such as knowing your playcall/audibles, etc)

If the game is mostly better graphics and better tackling with the same AI problems that plague all other football games - I think I'll hold off. I don't care so much about the franchise part - their system seems interesting and I'd give it chance (besides - I don't know if I'd be so quick to say it's not as deep as Madden's), and I don't care about fictional teams and players and whatnot (probably more fun that way - can't just go on name recognition), but if the players don't play better football (not just more naturally animated football) that puts a damper on me.

[canes21]

Re: Backbreaker Multiplayer Hands-on and Videos (IGN)

Well, considering that the AI in this game runs off behaviors and not just 'scripts' might make for better and more realistic gameplay. They react to where the ball should land, where the players can realistically go, etc. Its not EA's system where thye have to implement 'smart angles' so the AI will have a chance to chase you down. The players in this game should automatically make an angle based off their ratings. They should also do many other things besides just angles and all.

Don't take my word, but thats what I thought the engine also provided besides real time animations.