Madden NFL 11 Blog: Locomotion w/ Videos and L.T. Screenshot

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  • coogrfan
    In Fritz We Trust
    • Jul 2002
    • 15645

    #241
    Re: Madden NFL 11 Blog: Locomotion w/ Videos and L.T. Screenshot

    You don't think that maybe, just maybe, it might be a good idea to actually play BB before declaring euphoria the greatest thing since sliced bread?

    Val, you're usually a fairly intelligent and perceptive poster, but imho you're waaaaaaay off base here.

    Comment

    • Jimixiii
      Banned
      • Jun 2009
      • 348

      #242
      Re: Madden NFL 11 Blog: Locomotion w/ Videos and L.T. Screenshot

      Originally posted by coogrfan
      Apples and oranges, anyone?
      Not really, it's a physics based system...and what is it that madden needs? Physics.

      How else do you think that would effect a football game when momentum is one of the key factors in the sport? I'm pretty sure we're going to start seeing Euphoria based physics in all games in just a few years, it's the only way to go. You act like Euphoria would ruin your precious animations like magically gliding 3 yards with one foot on the ground, footballs phasing through defenders arms, magnetic blocks & tackles or premature predetermined tackles that stop your running dead in his tracks before he was even touched when actually Euphoria couldn't do more than help stop those things from happening.

      Euphoria has proven it makes interactions more realistic, I don't know what you've conjured up that it could suddenly create problems in a football game when it comes to physics. I don't know what logic your using but if you think Canned Animation>Real Time Animation then I guess you're just stuck in the past, cuz that's pretty much what you're saying.

      Comment

      • Valdarez
        All Star
        • Feb 2008
        • 5075

        #243
        Re: Madden NFL 11 Blog: Locomotion w/ Videos and L.T. Screenshot

        Originally posted by coogrfan
        You don't think that maybe, just maybe, it might be a good idea to actually play BB before declaring euphoria the greatest thing since sliced bread?
        I've already seen it in 2 games (EDIT: Just read it's being used in Red Dead Redemption!), and I liked what I saw in those. That tells me it's viable. So no, I don't need to see BB to tell me it could better than what's already in Madden (emphasis on 'could be'). Plus, it's not like we are completely in the dark with BB. We have seen BB videos with regards to movement and tackles, and I definitely like the infinite number of tackles that it provides. Some might not like the big hits, but that's a configuration choice the BB team chose to take and not one that Madden would necessarily have to emulate.

        Euphoria requires a lot of custom configuration/coding for custom actions, and I personally think they didn't want to invest the time and resources into Euphoria. Why would they? When they already have a working engine? However, I still say that to say it couldn't work is bull. That's why I want to see the post/blog/vid where Ian said it. Plus, I want to make sure I understand his comments in context.

        Originally posted by coogrfan
        Val, you're usually a fairly intelligent and perceptive poster, but imho you're waaaaaaay off base here.
        You can fool some of the people some of the time...
        Last edited by Valdarez; 04-10-2010, 05:50 PM.
        Follow Me On Twitter: http://twitter.com/Valdarez
        Read My Blog - Vision Is Everything

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        • canes21
          Hall Of Fame
          • Sep 2008
          • 22937

          #244
          Re: Madden NFL 11 Blog: Locomotion w/ Videos and L.T. Screenshot

          I don't think anyone said Canned Animations>Procedural Animations. Its the fact no one has made a sports game with this engine until now. Theres a lot more to this then EA wants to stay with Pro-Tac because they created it.

          Just because a system worked in GTA IV doesn't mean it will work in football games. In GTA IV, you'd shot a guy in the leg and he'd get up while holding his stomach. Do we want that ina football game? Do we want our players taking hits in the legs and breaking them, but they limp off the field holding their stomach? No... Those are minor things that still need work. I'm willing to bet it will take another Backbreaker title at the least to get everything down thats basic, then if a 3rd and 4th game come out, we'll start seeing the more complex things getting tuned. From what we've heard, WR's don't even try to get both feet down in the game because it was so hard to program, something the Madden team has partially done in the past with its engine.
          “No one is more hated than he who speaks the truth.”


          ― Plato

          Comment

          • Valdarez
            All Star
            • Feb 2008
            • 5075

            #245
            Re: Madden NFL 11 Blog: Locomotion w/ Videos and L.T. Screenshot

            Here's some information on Euphoria, so we're all on the same page.

            euphoria
            euphoria brings Dynamic Motion Synthesis (DMS) onto Playstation® 3, Xbox 360 and PC.

            With euphoria, animations are not canned but are generated on-the-fly by the hardware's processors as the game is played. Every tackle is your tackle, every haymaker is your haymaker.

            Previously, animation data had to be manually created (through key-framing) or recorded (through motion capture). This is often expensive and laborious, and results in static, non-interactive data.

            euphoria
            is instead based on a full simulation of a 3D character, including body, muscles and motor nervous system. This creates fully interactive animations that act and react differently every time.

            <hr>


            <img src="http://www.naturalmotion.com/files3/eCoreExp.jpg" align="right" />euphoria:core
            euphoria:core is NaturalMotion's lightweight DMS engine. euphoria:core runs parallel to the game's animation engine and is called by the game's AI whenever synthesised motion is required instead of canned animation. This enables a non-disruptive integration and scalable use.

            euphoria:core
            consists of a small kernel, AI controller modules (for adaptive behaviours) and a rigid dynamics module (for physics). euphoria is physics-engine independent and works with all commercially available engines (as well as proprietary ones).
            Follow Me On Twitter: http://twitter.com/Valdarez
            Read My Blog - Vision Is Everything

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            • canes21
              Hall Of Fame
              • Sep 2008
              • 22937

              #246
              Re: Madden NFL 11 Blog: Locomotion w/ Videos and L.T. Screenshot

              They still have to craft the running animations, throwing animations, etc. Then they have to program how each rating interacts with the game and other players. It would take a long period of time and I doubt we'll see EA use it this generation at all.
              “No one is more hated than he who speaks the truth.”


              ― Plato

              Comment

              • Valdarez
                All Star
                • Feb 2008
                • 5075

                #247
                Re: Madden NFL 11 Blog: Locomotion w/ Videos and L.T. Screenshot

                Originally posted by canes21
                I don't think anyone said Canned Animations>Procedural Animations. Its the fact no one has made a sports game with this engine until now. Theres a lot more to this then EA wants to stay with Pro-Tac because they created it.

                Just because a system worked in GTA IV doesn't mean it will work in football games. In GTA IV, you'd shot a guy in the leg and he'd get up while holding his stomach. Do we want that ina football game? Do we want our players taking hits in the legs and breaking them, but they limp off the field holding their stomach? No... Those are minor things that still need work. I'm willing to bet it will take another Backbreaker title at the least to get everything down thats basic, then if a 3rd and 4th game come out, we'll start seeing the more complex things getting tuned. From what we've heard, WR's don't even try to get both feet down in the game because it was so hard to program, something the Madden team has partially done in the past with its engine.
                I get it. I prototype ideas all the time in order to prove that a technology is viable in a product. That's why you're going to have a hard time convincing me it's not viable. It either works, or it doesn't, and it's already been shown to work in other games. I've seen the movement, I've seen the tackles. It looks really good, and better than the one man tackles and 9 man ProTaks.

                The example you provided has nothing to do with Euphoria. That's the game's implementation (getting shot, and how they react), not the engine. You'd have to code that to have it in Madden, and no, we don't want guys getting shot... wait, ok, no we don't.
                Follow Me On Twitter: http://twitter.com/Valdarez
                Read My Blog - Vision Is Everything

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                • canes21
                  Hall Of Fame
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 22937

                  #248
                  Re: Madden NFL 11 Blog: Locomotion w/ Videos and L.T. Screenshot

                  That is Euphoria. Where did they get shot, how will it effect their ability? Thats all tied to Euphoria. And anyone with sense gets what I meant with my example, except you Cowboy fans...

                  And yes, the tackles look beautiful, but the movements don't exactly look to pleasing to the eye outside that. As much as I want BB to be a success(day one for me), it has great tackles, but lacks a lot in most other areas.
                  “No one is more hated than he who speaks the truth.”


                  ― Plato

                  Comment

                  • Valdarez
                    All Star
                    • Feb 2008
                    • 5075

                    #249
                    Re: Madden NFL 11 Blog: Locomotion w/ Videos and L.T. Screenshot

                    Originally posted by canes21
                    They still have to craft the running animations, throwing animations, etc. Then they have to program how each rating interacts with the game and other players. It would take a long period of time and I doubt we'll see EA use it this generation at all.
                    Exactly, which means it would take more people and resources, and they don't want to spend the $$$ on it. I agree. Even if BB is the next best thing than sliced bread, I doubt they will shell out the $$$ to do it.

                    Originally posted by canes21
                    That is Euphoria. Where did they get shot, how will it effect their ability? Thats all tied to Euphoria. And anyone with sense gets what I meant with my example, except you Cowboy fans...

                    And yes, the tackles look beautiful, but the movements don't exactly look to pleasing to the eye outside that. As much as I want BB to be a success(day one for me), it has great tackles, but lacks a lot in most other areas.
                    Then why use this example?

                    Originally posted by canes21
                    Just because a system worked in GTA IV doesn't mean it will work in football games. In GTA IV, you'd shot a guy in the leg and he'd get up while holding his stomach. Do we want that ina football game? Do we want our players taking hits in the legs and breaking them, but they limp off the field holding their stomach?
                    I am having a hard time understanding your Redskinese.

                    Anyhow, that's my view, I'll leave you guys to chat about it more.
                    Follow Me On Twitter: http://twitter.com/Valdarez
                    Read My Blog - Vision Is Everything

                    Comment

                    • Jimixiii
                      Banned
                      • Jun 2009
                      • 348

                      #250
                      Re: Madden NFL 11 Blog: Locomotion w/ Videos and L.T. Screenshot

                      Originally posted by canes21
                      I don't think anyone said Canned Animations>Procedural Animations. Its the fact no one has made a sports game with this engine until now. Theres a lot more to this then EA wants to stay with Pro-Tac because they created it.

                      Just because a system worked in GTA IV doesn't mean it will work in football games. In GTA IV, you'd shot a guy in the leg and he'd get up while holding his stomach. Do we want that ina football game? Do we want our players taking hits in the legs and breaking them, but they limp off the field holding their stomach? No... Those are minor things that still need work. I'm willing to bet it will take another Backbreaker title at the least to get everything down thats basic, then if a 3rd and 4th game come out, we'll start seeing the more complex things getting tuned. From what we've heard, WR's don't even try to get both feet down in the game because it was so hard to program, something the Madden team has partially done in the past with its engine.
                      Even if all that you mentioned ended up being a glitch b/c of Euphoria it would be better than the madden glitches we have now, especially since the animation glitches now actually affect game play, unlike the concerns you've mentioned. Madden's having just as much of hard time with WRs planting there feet properly now for sideline catches so what's your point lol

                      To me this is like arguing you prefer 8-bit graphics over today's graphics. Euphoria is to enhance real life movement, I don't know what else you could want...? The system practically forces the game to interact properly when contact is made given the type of force used, which is a huge issue with Madden...how could that set EA back if they used it?

                      BB's issue most likely will be A.I. I'm assuming, but there's no way the actual Euphoria engine fails, it's shown what it can do, it may need a lil' tweaking in a football game but Madden's been needing heavy tuning since it's been on Next Gen.

                      Comment

                      • Mr_Riddick
                        Pro
                        • Jan 2009
                        • 1173

                        #251
                        Re: Madden NFL 11 Blog: Locomotion w/ Videos and L.T. Screenshot

                        Can anyone actually see the videos. if any has a website where i can see the videos i would appreciate it.

                        Comment

                        • johnnyg713
                          MVP
                          • Dec 2007
                          • 1465

                          #252
                          Re: Madden NFL 11 Blog: Locomotion w/ Videos and L.T. Screenshot

                          Idk why everyone thinks Euphoria is the best Physics engine.. Is there like some sort of award saying that it is? There is new tech coming out all the time. Euphoria looks good but that doesn't mean that Protack is any less advanced. Euphoria has been worked on for years and it has taken a very long time for it to get to where it is now. You guys need to remember Protack's FOUNDATION has just been introduced into madden last year they have been working and tweaking it since. Im not saying its gonna be better than Euphoria, hell Backbreaker might come out and blow madden out of the water in physics and EA will be forced to put the tech in for madden 12. However I think we need to see what the team has done since last year and how much they have improved it before we can jump to any conclusions on what tech will finally make madden a better playing football experience.

                          Edit: Remember if it wasnt for BB using Euphoria, EA may have never pushed to address momentum and animations. Just look what theyve done taking Fifa's Locomotion system (one of the "best" around) and putting it in madden. EA knows they have to prove that they're the better football game and their physics and animations are the best. Like always competition is good.
                          Last edited by johnnyg713; 04-10-2010, 07:15 PM.

                          Comment

                          • canes21
                            Hall Of Fame
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 22937

                            #253
                            Re: Madden NFL 11 Blog: Locomotion w/ Videos and L.T. Screenshot

                            Pro-Tac is nothing but procedural animations. Its all still canned. Natural Motion's engine runs off real time physics and obey's all the laws set by those like Newton. EA's animations may appear to be running of a physics engine that calculates momentum based statistics, but it was all handcrafted. What Natural Motion brings to the table is all real time statistics being calculated every millisecond and beyond.
                            “No one is more hated than he who speaks the truth.”


                            ― Plato

                            Comment

                            • K_GUN
                              C*t*z*n *f RSN
                              • Jul 2002
                              • 3891

                              #254
                              Re: Madden NFL 11 Blog: Locomotion w/ Videos and L.T. Screenshot

                              Originally posted by canes21
                              Pro-Tac is nothing but procedural animations. Its all still canned. Natural Motion's engine runs off real time physics and obey's all the laws set by those like Newton. EA's animations may appear to be running of a physics engine that calculates momentum based statistics, but it was all handcrafted. What Natural Motion brings to the table is all real time statistics being calculated every millisecond and beyond.
                              BB doesn't have an NFL/NFLPA license

                              that's an "epic fail" for this gamer

                              sorry kids
                              Bummed that you're not on my ignore list yet?.....Don't worry, I'm sure you will be very soon.

                              Comment

                              • canes21
                                Hall Of Fame
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 22937

                                #255
                                Re: Madden NFL 11 Blog: Locomotion w/ Videos and L.T. Screenshot

                                What? What are you trying to say with your post?

                                I know it doesn't have the NFL in it. Thats why I am getting all the football games this year. Madden, NCAA, Backbreaker, and maybe Tecmo. I get NFL, College, New and Exciting, and the Classic.
                                “No one is more hated than he who speaks the truth.”


                                ― Plato

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