Madden NFL 11 Blog: Run Blocking Improvements

[falconfansince81]

Re: Madden NFL 11 Blog: Run Blocking Improvements

yeah i agree i would like to see this blocking on a VARIETY of difficulties, to not only show what improvements they have/have not made but ALSO to see how well the ai has improved throughout a translation of difficulty.

i just have a feeling not much will change in that department

i didn't read all the replies to this post, but i'm sure most of you have seen some of the same problems that urked us all since 06.

the running animation did look nice without the hitch-step, i must say.

[CreatineKasey]

Re: Madden NFL 11 Blog: Run Blocking Improvements

I think the point of the video was to clearly explain the logic, which is obviously cleaner on rookie. Things would get tougher to easily explain to less hardcore fans with defenses winning blocks and messing up the scheme. It was intended to show an ideal result for the offense.

I'm surprised people are putting a negative spin on this given that it's a great sim improvement. Unfortunate.

[moneal2001]

Re: Madden NFL 11 Blog: Run Blocking Improvements

I think the point of the video was to clearly explain the logic, which is obviously cleaner on rookie. Things would get tougher to easily explain to less hardcore fans with defenses winning blocks and messing up the scheme. It was intended to show an ideal result for the offense.

I'm surprised people are putting a negative spin on this given that it's a great sim improvement. Unfortunate.

Why are you surprised? That is about all that you get from this board or just about any game board for anything EA or Madden.

[JerseySuave4]

Re: Madden NFL 11 Blog: Run Blocking Improvements

i gotta admit, after this blog i might be coming back on board. It seems that with the logic being improved, i might actually be able to play this game past 2 weeks.

Those bashing this video, they put it on a lower level to show you the logic behind the blocking. What would be the point trying to show you the logic behind who is supposed to block who if they have the guys miss the blocks? Think of this like a coach in practice explaining the play to his team. I know from coaching that a lot of times we walk through things step by step so the guys can see who they are supposed to block, who they need to look for coming off double teams. When the game is on a higher difficulty things wont just run perfect like that or else running would be unstoppable.

[Only1LT]

Re: Madden NFL 11 Blog: Run Blocking Improvements

Peace of cake. Do you know how many ignorant youtubers hate madden!?

A LOT lol. :wink:

Are you implying that people that make YouTube videos are ignorant, or people that don't like Madden are ignorant, or both?

[Only1LT]

Re: Madden NFL 11 Blog: Run Blocking Improvements

Couple things I noticed that no one else has mentioned. Running animations looked much improved, and the locomotion was more noticeable. You could see the players had more weight to them and weren't turning on a dime.

I did notice that and was going to mention it. Just wanted to read through the whole thread first.

I definitely see improvement in the running animations. They are smoother. It reminds of the last gen running animations somewhat. I can also see some loco evidence as the player has noticeable body lean when changing directions.

Having said that, I wouldn't say that the run animations are much improved. I'll take it compared to what we have, but it still has a long way to go in my opinion.

I see a lot of posters saying to bring back the running animations from last gen and how they were just about perfect, and I could not agree less. Comparatively the last gen animations may be better, but I never thought that they were anything to write home about either. The one significant advantage they had over current gen running animations is that they at least looked fluid, where as this gen is plagued by a weird hitching in the animations. In the blog vids, the hitching did seem to improve some too though, so kudos to them for that.

The other thing is that although the players leaned when running, and that is most welcome, there is still a floaty... weightlessness look to the way they ran. They look a little too much like feathers in the wind and that they float ever so slightly above the ground rather than firmly planted on it.

Speaking of planting, I think that they could do with more evident foot planting on change of directions. From what I have seen so far, there is really only a foot plant when executing a special move for the most part.

Overall, the improvement is there, and I am appreciative of the small favor, but it is a small favor. Still a lot of work to do in this department as far as I am concerned.

And on a side note, those player models irk me more and more everyday. That's also a factor in the running animations looking off still to me. The angles at which their limbs stay affixed and the overall shape of the models, with their off proportions, don't do the running animations any favors either. (Shudders)

[shttymcgee]

Re: Madden NFL 11 Blog: Run Blocking Improvements

I still think that there is not enough lateral movement on the LOS between linemen. The assignments seem more realistic (except for the odd reach block by the center on the counter play,) which certainly is a step in the right direction. However, using the stretch play as an example, defenders should be getting pushed laterally to a much greater degree; there should be less standing and jostling.

[Palo20]

Re: Madden NFL 11 Blog: Run Blocking Improvements

I still think that there is not enough lateral movement on the LOS between linemen. The assignments seem more realistic (except for the odd reach block by the center on the counter play,) which certainly is a step in the right direction. However, using the stretch play as an example, defenders should be getting pushed laterally to a much greater degree; there should be less standing and jostling.

Good post, I was just about to show a video. Definitely need more lateral movement out of the OLine.



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Here are a few Colts' runs. They also pull lineman on some of their zone plays. The Vikings' runs are slightly different but you can see the OLine movement and the cutback lanes opening up.

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Also, here is one of the Colts' draw plays, it's more of an outside draw play with OLinemem pulling.

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[Only1LT]

Re: Madden NFL 11 Blog: Run Blocking Improvements

I still think that there is not enough lateral movement on the LOS between linemen. The assignments seem more realistic (except for the odd reach block by the center on the counter play,) which certainly is a step in the right direction. However, using the stretch play as an example, defenders should be getting pushed laterally to a much greater degree; there should be less standing and jostling.

They have improved the blocking logic, or at least I hope they have. What you are talking about though requires them, not only add animations, but also implement a new physics engine.

That they would need the former, is obvious. I say that they would need the latter because I remember Ian specifically in a blog last year attempting to belittle how 2K does their blocking animations and saying that they were canned and not dynamic. So I would imagine that he would not want to copy the way they did it and would want the interaction to be dynamic.

That's good and bad. Good in that having most things in a game be dynamic is usually a good thing, but bad in that I don't know if they are actually capable of pulling that off with the state of the game today and I would much rather have what 2K did, canned or not (and aren't the animations in Madden canned to a large extent anyway?) then have what we have now.

The animations in 2K may have been canned, but they were done so well that they still looked like some dynamic struggle was taking place, even if it wasn't. In Madden, the animations are not dynamic and they don't do a good job of hiding the fact that this is NOT what you see on Sunday.

[Only1LT]

Re: Madden NFL 11 Blog: Run Blocking Improvements

I understand that the vids are being played on Rookie, but what does that actually mean?

So you are saying that because the game setting is on Rookie, that it is perfectly understandable for the defense to react slowly, lack awareness, and show lack of fundamentals. Sounds plausible... except, that the offense is also on Rookie... so... shouldn't the line react slowly, lack awareness, and show a lack of fundamentals?

I'm not saying that there is definitely something wrong with the defense on higher difficulty levels, but to say "oh it's on Rookie, so anything and everything goes" just doesn't make sense to me.

This goes to a larger issue that I have with sports games in general. There shouldn't be 4 different difficulty levels. If it's supposed to be a sim game, then why would you need different difficulty levels? If there is one "normal" mode where things happen as they should, why do I care about a rookie, pro, all pro, all star level?

Now all sports games (that I have played anyway, I haven't played every single one) have difficulty levels so Madden isn't alone in this, but I still can't help but think that there is something inherently wrong with the way that Madden programs difficulty. Difficulty should be based on sliders. If you are not that advanced, you should be able to lower the ratings of the team you are playing against across the board to make it more challenging. But you should never have players play fundamentally wrong in order to make the game easier. Maybe this stems from the lack of confidence I have in Tiburon anyway, but when I see something like this, I can't help but wonder what else is fundamentally wrong with the game, that is just being masked by them exaggerating one aspect of the game to compensate for another. The evidence that many ratings in Madden mean nothing is also substantial, so maybe this is a byproduct of that. But I digress.

Not going to go off on a long diatribe of Tiburon's abilities. I just think that Madden, and any other sports game that thinks of itself as a sim, should have one difficulty. The "real" difficulty. I know that trying to make your game accessible to the novice in order to increase sales is important, but I just think that the way that they are handling difficulty is apparently flawed. Not just because of the vid either. This is something that I have thought for a while. The video is just further illustration of it.

[Only1LT]

Re: Madden NFL 11 Blog: Run Blocking Improvements

One more thing that I noticed in regards to the animations the blog vids. The animation of Sanchez going back to hand off the ball is, for a lack of a better word, disturbing. Look at how his legs move. It's just straight up bizarre.

[bls]

Re: Madden NFL 11 Blog: Run Blocking Improvements

i gotta admit, after this blog i might be coming back on board. It seems that with the logic being improved, i might actually be able to play this game past 2 weeks.

Those bashing this video, they put it on a lower level to show you the logic behind the blocking. What would be the point trying to show you the logic behind who is supposed to block who if they have the guys miss the blocks? Think of this like a coach in practice explaining the play to his team. I know from coaching that a lot of times we walk through things step by step so the guys can see who they are supposed to block, who they need to look for coming off double teams. When the game is on a higher difficulty things wont just run perfect like that or else running would be unstoppable.

But most people that play the game User Vs User don't play the game on the rookie level so how is this beneficial to look at? They need to show the logic behind how the OL miss blocks to show if it's still represented the right way. I don't want my OL to miss blocks because there running around in circles. I want them to miss blocks because they were beat based on position, speed and strength.

If I'm playing the game on a higher difficulty and I see my OL running around in circles I'm just gonna think the blocking is the same ole same ole, how is that improved???

[s38s38s]

Re: Madden NFL 11 Blog: Run Blocking Improvements

I understand that the vids are being played on Rookie, but what does that actually mean?

So you are saying that because the game setting is on Rookie, that it is perfectly understandable for the defense to react slowly, lack awareness, and show lack of fundamentals. Sounds plausible... except, that the offense is also on Rookie... so... shouldn't the line react slowly, lack awareness, and show a lack of fundamentals?

Nice try but the sole purpose of the "Rookie" difficulty is to make it easier for the user. Simply put the sliders are in the user's favor and severely handi-cap the CPU A.I.. If you want the sliders even where both sides react equally I suggest you request a vid done on All-Pro.

[s38s38s]

Re: Madden NFL 11 Blog: Run Blocking Improvements

But most people that play the game User Vs User don't play the game on the rookie level so how is this beneficial to look at? They need to show the logic behind how the OL miss blocks to show if it's still represented the right way. I don't want my OL to miss blocks because there running around in circles. I want them to miss blocks because they were beat based on position, speed and strength.

If I'm playing the game on a higher difficulty and I see my OL running around in circles I'm just gonna think the blocking is the same ole same ole, how is that improved???

Damn, you guys criticize every little thing. If the purpose of a video is to illistrated the new concepts behind blocking why do it on a higher difficulty where it may take more plays (due to better defensive play) to get the blocks right when you could just do it on rookie and be done in one shot? This isn't a user vs user vid it shows a concept thats all. If you want user vs user download the demos play them then complain.

They don't have to do these blogs, or show us anything. People wonder why there's no interaction when all the majority of what people do is complain about nit-picky stuff. "Yeah they gave us a vid, but put it on rookie, wtf EA?" Be happy you have a damn blog and vids to show progress from last years game. Be glad that even though the blogs may spawn a million questions, they answer a million more. Guys around here refuse to take things for what they're worth and continue to dig, looking for something anything to complain about. So there's still suction blocking big deal it will probably always be around. It's been in every football game I've ever played. Just be happy that the game is improving and that they are listening to the consumer's complaints. Instead of finding ways to be-little changes we all asked for.

[adembroski]

Re: Madden NFL 11 Blog: Run Blocking Improvements

I understand that the vids are being played on Rookie, but what does that actually mean?

So you are saying that because the game setting is on Rookie, that it is perfectly understandable for the defense to react slowly, lack awareness, and show lack of fundamentals. Sounds plausible... except, that the offense is also on Rookie... so... shouldn't the line react slowly, lack awareness, and show a lack of fundamentals?

No... on rookie difficulty the computer players react slowly, lack awareness, and lack fundamentals, because the whole point is for the game to be easier for the player.

I'm not saying that there is definitely something wrong with the defense on higher difficulty levels, but to say "oh it's on Rookie, so anything and everything goes" just doesn't make sense to me.

That's because you're thinking of difficulty setting as an offense vs. defense difficulty, rather than a difficulty for the user.

This goes to a larger issue that I have with sports games in general. There shouldn't be 4 different difficulty levels. If it's supposed to be a sim game, then why would you need different difficulty levels? If there is one "normal" mode where things happen as they should, why do I care about a rookie, pro, all pro, all star level?

Except that some people aren't as good as others at sports games. Difficulty levels exist to make the game easier or harder based on the experience you, as a user, want.

Now all sports games (that I have played anyway, I haven't played every single one) have difficulty levels so Madden isn't alone in this, but I still can't help but think that there is something inherently wrong with the way that Madden programs difficulty. Difficulty should be based on sliders. If you are not that advanced, you should be able to lower the ratings of the team you are playing against across the board to make it more challenging. But you should never have players play fundamentally wrong in order to make the game easier. Maybe this stems from the lack of confidence I have in Tiburon anyway, but when I see something like this, I can't help but wonder what else is fundamentally wrong with the game, that is just being masked by them exaggerating one aspect of the game to compensate for another. The evidence that many ratings in Madden mean nothing is also substantial, so maybe this is a byproduct of that. But I digress.

Sliders are for fine tuning. As it stands, however, the difficulty setting adjusts the sliders and vica virca. Yes, you can adjust sliders independently, but if you go too far one direction or another with them, you change the difficulty (speaking of M10 here).

I used to do a lot of slider work... testing and coming up with realistic sliders. The way it used to work was that the difficulty setting essentially effected the frequency of AI updates, and also was a modifier to CPU player attributes. At rookie, the CPU would update it's AI very slowly, and the players would all have attribute penalties. At All Madden, the AI would update frequently, and the CPU players would have substantial attribute bonuses.

Pro and All Pro had no penalties or bonuses, but the All Pro AI Updates were more frequent (personally, I've always wanted something between all-pro and all madden... more AI updates, no attribute bonus).

This isn't technical, it's observation. I could be wrong in my interpretation of what I've seen, but that's what I suspect. AI Updates--- to explain, AI in most games "updates" at regular intervals. Usually several times per second. This is when the AI looks at essentially a screenshot and decides how to proceed based on the existing circumstances. Faster AI updates means the CPU reacts more quickly. AI doesn't "think" in real time the way we do, it has to constantly reevaluate what it's looking at and respond to circumstances at intervals.

So what you see with the slow reaction time at rookie is the computer responding to it's last AI update. When it updates again, the AI will react to the new circumstances.

The sliders, on the other hand, give direct attribute bonuses and penalties to specific areas of the game. Raising QB Accuracy for the CPU makes all CPU QBs play as though their Throwing Accuracy ratings were higher.

Thus, having difficulty levels AND sliders makes me better able to fine tune my game the way I want it.

Not going to go off on a long diatribe of Tiburon's abilities. I just think that Madden, and any other sports game that thinks of itself as a sim, should have one difficulty. The "real" difficulty. I know that trying to make your game accessible to the novice in order to increase sales is important, but I just think that the way that they are handling difficulty is apparently flawed. Not just because of the vid either. This is something that I have thought for a while. The video is just further illustration of it.

Not having difficulty settings would be terrible for new players and veteran players. Some people are simply better than others. Stick skills vary greatly, and the game is no fun if you're either too good for the game to challenge you or too bad to be competitive.

There was a game... the original MVP Baseball... where the developers elected not to have sliders. They said "if you make the game right in the first place, you don't need sliders." A lot of people agreed with them. Then the game came out, and it wasn't perfect. No game with sliders ever goes without their sliders untouched, simple as that. Every game can be improved. There is no sense in not giving us the tools to improve it.

I'm still pissed that FIFA doesn't have sliders.