NBA Elite 11 Impressions (Kotaku)

[loadleft]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Impressions (Kotaku)

Pretty much agree with Jano. I don't get why the opposite seems to be okay here though, for people to blindly speculate that everything will be messed up simply because "this is EA".

Instead of envisioning what the shooting could be like, why not read up on it as that would assuage this somehow rampant idea that getting the angle and timing down will equal a make regardless of ratings, defense, court position, etc. All the stick (not just shot stick since the RS controls hands, left to right movements for dribbling, up for shooting) is doing is replacing what pressing X used to do in order to give the user a little more control over the outcome. Not unlike taking movement from a dpad to an analog stick.

I'm agree with loadleft's philosophy about basketball gaming but not the tone of his post. The game was announced maybe a month ago, with no previews yet and an embargo for another week: How could you have heard anything about gameplay or AI yet? Every year, 2K/EA announce a feature or a talking point and people decry it because that must've been the only thing they worked on. Wait and find out, you've got 4 months before you give anyone your $60.

I'm not sure what my tone is! At least not the one you're referring to. I usually post long drawn out comments so that reading between the lines is not needed and my point is clear. That said here it is short and sweet. I am a huge Live fan! I don't even play 2K, I've done so twice 2007 & 2009. I don't have an agenda. I am not against the shot stick. I believe the reason EA brought in guys from the community is to get comments and impressions early enough to be able to make changes, in turn I think expressing concerns here gets them seen also for the same reason. I think blindly doing anything would be turning against the proven track record that EA has and assuming that this time it'll be done right.

Jano we're not far apart, I am just harping on lets not go way over to the stick skills side and forget that this is basketball. When I was a kid there was a little game of table top basketball that had a vibrating court with holes in it. Inside the holes were these little spring loaded "shooters". The object was that as the ball rolled around and fell into one of these holes you had to trigger the shooter (kinda like pinball) to shoot the ball into the basket from that spot (the location of the hole). It required skill (lots of it) but not much basketball knowledge. I don't want to play that game anymore, you get my drift, LOL

Although I've answered why I don't think "wait and see" is the right move. Would someone from the wait and see crowd please explain to me what to do on a discussion board while you're waiting to see?

[Tha_Kid]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Impressions (Kotaku)

I'm not sure what my tone is! At least not the one you're referring to.

The tone in your posts seems to be "Assume the worst, hope for the best".

I am a huge Live fan! I don't even play 2K, I've done so twice 2007 & 2009. I don't have an agenda. I am not against the shot stick.

Don't care. We're not talking about agendas or which game anyone likes more. We're only talking about basketball games.

I believe the reason EA brought in guys from the community is to get comments and impressions early enough to be able to make changes, in turn I think expressing concerns here gets them seen also for the same reason. I think blindly doing anything would be turning against the proven track record that EA has and assuming that this time it'll be done right.

Except you're expressing a concern that has been touched on in multiple threads by people who played the (alpha copy) game. I won't touch on "proven track record".

Although I've answered why I don't think "wait and see" is the right move. Would someone from the wait and see crowd please explain to me what to do on a discussion board while you're waiting to see?

Discuss. Discuss what we've been shown, Discuss what you'd like to see, Discuss how things could be better. I'm all for expressing concerns and discussion about closing the realism gap between playing ball and playing ball. I just don't understand the negativity because of a perceived track record.

[Evolved]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Impressions (Kotaku)

Bad link in the first post of this thread.

[NINJAK2]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Impressions (Kotaku)

I'm not sure what my tone is! At least not the one you're referring to. I usually post long drawn out comments so that reading between the lines is not needed and my point is clear. That said here it is short and sweet. I am a huge Live fan! I don't even play 2K, I've done so twice 2007 & 2009. I don't have an agenda. I am not against the shot stick. I believe the reason EA brought in guys from the community is to get comments and impressions early enough to be able to make changes, in turn I think expressing concerns here gets them seen also for the same reason. I think blindly doing anything would be turning against the proven track record that EA has and assuming that this time it'll be done right.

Jano we're not far apart, I am just harping on lets not go way over to the stick skills side and forget that this is basketball. When I was a kid there was a little game of table top basketball that had a vibrating court with holes in it. Inside the holes were these little spring loaded "shooters". The object was that as the ball rolled around and fell into one of these holes you had to trigger the shooter (kinda like pinball) to shoot the ball into the basket from that spot (the location of the hole). It required skill (lots of it) but not much basketball knowledge. I don't want to play that game anymore, you get my drift, LOL

Although I've answered why I don't think "wait and see" is the right move. Would someone from the wait and see crowd please explain to me what to do on a discussion board while you're waiting to see?

You are doing a great job explaining your points load and I certainly see your points, I just don't know if I can agree with them entirely. To be good at any video game, stick skills are a huge requirement regarding being successful in the long run and it will probably always be that way. No matter what game you play (StreetFighter 4, COD, HALO, Madden, killzone, etc) how good you are on the sticks will usually play a huge part in whether you win or lose. These are in the long run just games that operate off of user input.

As in a football game like Madden, if you are good at calling your offensive plays but don't know how to put the right amount of touch on your pass attempts or use jukes, spins, etc you may not be as successful as you'd hope-no matter your knowledge. If you want BBALL knowledge to ultimately decide success, the only option is to get people to play coach mode with you where stick skills aren't pivotal to wins and losses. IMO their shot stick is just another way for users to seperate themselves from other users in the skill department.

If someone were to take the time to practice Rondo's jumpshot in practice mode and get down his timing and release to a science he should be able to hit that mid range more often if you leave him wide open. This doesn't mean he will hit like Kobe Bryant just that he may be more successful with him than someone else who doesn't put the time in with Rondo. I've seen games where Rondo has hit a fair amount of his mid range shots, the difference is that he isn't consistent. Those real life games where he is consistent could represent those moments where he is focused and shooting in rhythm.

I've always felt that if these hoop games want to ensure that knowledge plays an equal part in success (ex:running plays) I feel that players who run and complete plays should get an ever so slight upgrade in chance % of shots going in compared to the iso monster who attempts to give it to Kobe everytime down and runs no semblance of an offense.

Great posts by everyone here

[Tha_Kid]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Impressions (Kotaku)

First post links haven't been working for me as well.

Re-reading the link, it sounds like something you really need to get your hands on to grasp how well it will work (Surprising, I know). Would be nice to get a writeup from a sports gaming site or just some random impressions from people at E3 but i haven't found anything. Elite 11's website says you can see the game at their booth though.

[Tha_Kid]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Impressions (Kotaku)

I've always felt that if these hoop games want to ensure that knowledge plays an equal part in success (ex:running plays) I feel that players who run and complete plays should get an ever so slight upgrade in chance % of shots going in compared to the iso monster who attempts to give it to Kobe everytime down and runs no semblance of an offense.

I was actually thinking the same thing when I first read Jano & loadleft's posts.

[Jesus]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Impressions (Kotaku)

After its all said and done, i dont see much of a difference between the jumpshooting in this and whats its been previously.

- You have to time the release

- Its more forgiving with a better shooter

- Defense is a factor ( as it should be)

[Jano]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Impressions (Kotaku)

Jano we're not far apart, I am just harping on lets not go way over to the stick skills side and forget that this is basketball. When I was a kid there was a little game of table top basketball that had a vibrating court with holes in it. Inside the holes were these little spring loaded "shooters". The object was that as the ball rolled around and fell into one of these holes you had to trigger the shooter (kinda like pinball) to shoot the ball into the basket from that spot (the location of the hole). It required skill (lots of it) but not much basketball knowledge. I don't want to play that game anymore, you get my drift, LOL

Lol! I get you man that's why I'm hoping these guys at EA make sure that shooting in this game does require some knowledge of the player along with skills on the stick.

If someone is stupid enough to start jacking 3's with Shaq or shooting fadeaways 3's with Kwame Brown I'd like to HOPE that just like irl that is extremely difficult shot to settle for.

Those types of shots especially with players that have no business out there should be damn near impossible to time. And even if the player has the ability to shoot tough shots (fades, leaners, etc) they should still be difficult to time, due to the degree of difficulty.

With all the factors I read about in the Q&A I dont think "shot masters" will be too much of problem. This is definitely one of those games we are only going to be able to judge until we get are hands on it.

I've always felt that if these hoop games want to ensure that knowledge plays an equal part in success (ex:running plays) I feel that players who run and complete plays should get an ever so slight upgrade in chance % of shots going in compared to the iso monster who attempts to give it to Kobe everytime down and runs no semblance of an offense.

Great point right here Ninja and this is an area I can see the shot timing helping in. If you run plays you will have a higher chance of giving guys the ball in areas they can be successful in.

And since timing is going to be key here shooting the right type of shot will be important. If you run around shooting with Kobe all game you are going to have to put up a lot tough shots due to the defense which will make life that much harder for you.

I don't see how a player trying to jack shots with one guy will be able to beat one who knows how to run plays effectively. Especially if this years defensive controls are up to snuff this year.

[loadleft]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Impressions (Kotaku)

Discuss. Discuss what we've been shown, Discuss what you'd like to see, Discuss how things could be better. I'm all for expressing concerns and discussion about closing the realism gap between playing ball and playing ball. I just don't understand the negativity because of a perceived track record.

I thought I was already following your rules for what I should say!

What I've been shown was the shot stick this year. More importantly (FOR ME) I've been shown EA pushing the next big feature without addressing the current problems. At any rate I think I said I am not wanting an easy shot mechanism just I don't want to "go too far to stick skills side" for me that doesn't stop at the shot stick it also includes freestyle moves which I became concerned about after watching one of the videos. I am concerned that if the D isn't as powerful as the ball handling is, then freestyle stick skills could be a problem. I've already expressed how I thought things could be better so I hope I have met your requirements for what I can and can't say [sarcasm].

"I just don't understand the negativity because of a perceived track record" is an interesting statement considering EA themselves have pretty much acknowledged as much in press releases and the name change itself. I'm pretty sure they didn't change to Elite because they thought it was cute! I won't address the tone part. As far as others who have played the game that only holds a small amount of value for me because I don't know their preferences and concerns. I am basing my opinions on my own past and current experiences and though I've enjoyed pretty much all the Lives to some degree, I feel I recognize this pattern, hype the new feature and not talk about the negatives. If I was remaking a bad image I'd start with addressing the detractions first then the innovations. Just me.

I don't feel I've said a single negative thing about the game, only things I'm concerned may be in the game based on what I've seen.

[Behindshadows]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Impressions (Kotaku)

Honestly who cares about people's Impressions....why aren't we getting footage....I want to see and make my own impressions. So far E3 didn't deliver this season...basketball sports fans got hosed.

Maybe we'll get some nice gameplay videos in August or September. Because for now I don't see any news past more lame screenshots that are all pre-released and unfinished edits. And some more trailers of live action gameplay and empty stadiums.

Just disappointed overall...

[natedZA]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Impressions (Kotaku)

Interesting take, but to me the simple reason to not run in circles and throw up 3's is because it won't work as in real life. If effective defense is built into the game where the presence of a defender and a hand in the face makes the shot a lot more difficult or unlikely to go in there's no need of an artificial challenge such as can you push a stick in a straight line, etc. One would be required to use basketball knowledge to get open shots or good looks at the basket. That makes it a simulation of what basketball is about not a video game with basketball aspects.

I am not against the shot stick, I feel innovations such as those should be used to add functionality that previously wasn't possible, but not add a challenge that really doesn't exist in basketball. The latter in my opinion drives the game away from being a sim. IRL the mechanics of shooting a basketball aren't that hard it's being able to do them successfully with the various challenges brought on by the game. I don't mean I should be able to shoot with my eyes close using the shot stick, I just mean it shouldn't be what the challenge of the game is about. If the shot stick is "the challenge" you'll have guys that don't even know what a pick is mastering the shot stick and effectively playing the game. So don't get me wrong if the shot stick means I don't need a layup solution movie to get to the basket but I can do it on my own, I am all for it, but if it means no matter how open I am I got to master the split second release and ability to push a stick straight to score then we're not playing basketball it's the Shot Stick Challenge!

Further I haven't heard a single thing about "...we've improved game play..." I's been you can now do all this special stuff with the controls. Instantly that reminds me of the introduction of freestyle dribbling. Now guys can do all kinds of stuff that a real life player never could simply by mastering controls. I want DNA improved, and stuff like that, you know things that makes teams bring about challenges that are based on personnel whether it's CPU or human controlled. I want it so a player that sees Rondo high overall rating and PPG statistics but doesn't realize he doesn't have a consistent jumper can't succeed shooting jumpers w/Rondo, not consistently anyway. My fear is: Master the stick get wide open J's w/non-shooters and whamo! success! Also I can see the game looking like an "And-1 mixed tape". That's just me though, if others don't feel that way so be it. At this point EA is looking for sales and I think the average fan knows nothing about real basketball fundamentals so to entice them you'll need to offer a highlight real in every play. Kobe hitting in your face fade aways, LBJ trucking down the lane, D. Howard spin move dunk, etc. That'll be sim because I saw it on TV. In the thread about camera angles some say it isn't sim if doesn't look like I'm watching it on TV. I say it's a sim of PLAYING basketball not watching it.

Surely though the shot stick mechanic will be harder to use with non-shooters and will also be harder to use when not open with a defenders hand in your face? I'm sure that's how they described it? This would still work to a "real" basketball fan's advantage as trying to get the open shot would be more advantageous then shooting when guarded. This would then obviously minimize luck while still giving that realistic edge as we all know professional players can make a shot with a defenders hand in their face.

[gmac0322]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Impressions (Kotaku)

Honestly who cares about people's Impressions....why aren't we getting footage....I want to see and make my own impressions. So far E3 didn't deliver this season...basketball sports fans got hosed.

Maybe we'll get some nice gameplay videos in August or September. Because for now I don't see any news past more lame screenshots that are all pre-released and unfinished edits. And some more trailers of live action gameplay and empty stadiums.

Just disappointed overall...

I agree completely. I remember in the past they used to show us some footage but the past two years both companies havent shown that much at e3. It always just closed door impressions now. It sucks because you have games that are coming out later than the basketball games and they have full gameplay and info on them.

[Behindshadows]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Impressions (Kotaku)

I agree completely. I remember in the past they used to show us some footage but the past two years both companies havent shown that much at e3. It always just closed door impressions now. It sucks because you have games that are coming out later than the basketball games and they have full gameplay and info on them.

See you hit that right on the nose...Games coming out way past the basketball games, have full gameplay demos running. Showing us something, and overall explaining additions and so forth. Just amazing me, the basketball games coming out in 4 months and we get nothing. 3 lame screenshots per company. Minus the extra one IGN released of other guys playing the game, I mean really?

That is just mediocre and poor marketing, last two E3's have been trash. Why even announce your going to be at E3 if you already know the public can't attend, don't you think we at least deserve to see some online footage or something, since we are the ones buying the games. And then you get tons of articles of I see that they are doing this, and I've seen these graphics, I saw this presentation.

I don't care anymore what people saw, I buy my games based on, SHOW ME!!!! You can tell me anything, but seeing is believing!

[gmac0322]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Impressions (Kotaku)

See you hit that right on the nose...Games coming out way past the basketball games, have full gameplay demos running. Showing us something, and overall explaining additions and so forth. Just amazing me, the basketball games coming out in 4 months and we get nothing. 3 lame screenshots per company. Minus the extra one IGN released of other guys playing the game, I mean really?

That is just mediocre and poor marketing, last two E3's have been trash. Why even announce your going to be at E3 if you already know the public can't attend, don't you think we at least deserve to see some online footage or something, since we are the ones buying the games. And then you get tons of articles of I see that they are doing this, and I've seen these graphics, I saw this presentation.

I don't care anymore what people saw, I buy my games based on, SHOW ME!!!! You can tell me anything, but seeing is believing!

Amen brother! Amen!

[NINJAK2]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Impressions (Kotaku)

See you hit that right on the nose...Games coming out way past the basketball games, have full gameplay demos running. Showing us something, and overall explaining additions and so forth. Just amazing me, the basketball games coming out in 4 months and we get nothing. 3 lame screenshots per company. Minus the extra one IGN released of other guys playing the game, I mean really?

That is just mediocre and poor marketing, last two E3's have been trash. Why even announce your going to be at E3 if you already know the public can't attend, don't you think we at least deserve to see some online footage or something, since we are the ones buying the games. And then you get tons of articles of I see that they are doing this, and I've seen these graphics, I saw this presentation.

I don't care anymore what people saw, I buy my games based on, SHOW ME!!!! You can tell me anything, but seeing is believing!

Maybe they don't want to show footage of an incomplete game that is 5 months away so they get killed on the boards and in the media. I can't blame EA or 2k in that regard. When they are ready to show it they will.