7 Minute NBA Elite 11 Video (Gamespot)

[joel0078]

Re: 7 Minute NBA Elite 11 Video (Gamespot)

Whoooooaaa, calm down. I don't know very much about developing video games, but I imagine the reason everyone is tuned to the most explosive, agile player is simply because they don't have all of the player ratings input yet. So all players in these early videos are the same ratings-template-generic player.

The game is still an early build, they don't have sig jump shots, ratings, etc... so if ratings aren't in yet, would you rather see videos where everyone moves like Chris Paul after a few red bulls, or a modern day Patrick Ewing (not to be confused with Patrick Chewing).

Just relax, reanimator said that ratings / locomotion tunings etc... still need to be input.

I see what you're saying and I don't mean to be over sensitive about it...I'm just not happy with what was shown. It doesn't matter what the ratings are right now. He clearly stated that player speeds are tuned to be to fast, intentionally. I pose the question, WHY? Why not have them moderate, don't show us something that you admit will be different in the end or something you admit no one is happy with. If you have the opportunity to adjust it now and make it believable, do it, for the sake of your fans and sake of your company. Thats what I'm asking for.

I'm done with this one, it's way to early to be getting into this kind of stuff. You guys are right, I know it's a "demo" of sorts. I'm done with it until more info comes out. thanks for replying to my opinion and I look forward to seeing a reply from development in response to my question.

[dexvex]

Re: 7 Minute NBA Elite 11 Video (Gamespot)

I see what you're saying and I don't mean to be over sensitive about it...I'm just not happy with what was shown. It doesn't matter what the ratings are right now. He clearly stated that player speeds are tuned to be to fast, intentionally. I pose the question, WHY? Why not have them moderate, don't show us something that you admit will be different in the end or something you admit no one is happy with. If you have the opportunity to adjust it now and make it believable, do it, for the sake of your fans and sake of your company. Thats what I'm asking for.

I'm done with this one, it's way to early to be getting into this kind of stuff. You guys are right, I know it's a "demo" of sorts. I'm done with it until more info comes out. thanks for replying to my opinion and I look forward to seeing a reply from development in response to my question.

You don't seem to understand that they are looking for feedback therefor it is tuned like it is. They are not trying to decieve you so again please quit with the hyperbole

[RayDog253]

Re: 7 Minute NBA Elite 11 Video (Gamespot)

I see what you're saying and I don't mean to be over sensitive about it...I'm just not happy with what was shown. It doesn't matter what the ratings are right now. He clearly stated that player speeds are tuned to be to fast, intentionally. I pose the question, WHY? Why not have them moderate, don't show us something that you admit will be different in the end or something you admit no one is happy with. If you have the opportunity to adjust it now and make it believable, do it, for the sake of your fans and sake of your company. Thats what I'm asking for.

I'm done with this one, it's way to early to be getting into this kind of stuff. You guys are right, I know it's a "demo" of sorts. I'm done with it until more info comes out. thanks for replying to my opinion and I look forward to seeing a reply from development in response to my question.

It's a 1 on 1 demo to showcase the new dribble mechanics, so of course the players are going to be "set"(i think tuned was a bad choice of words) at a more quicker and agile state.

[stepsix]

Re: 7 Minute NBA Elite 11 Video (Gamespot)

Anyway to make sure right now that some PG's like Kidd and Fisher are under control with their shot selection/shooting tendencies?

I would love to see J.Kidd be more of a distributor....yes he does look for the open 3 more and i think that should play out in NBA Elite if he's wide open he'll take the shot but if someone is defending him Kidd's not going to shoot

He absolutely must have his feet set in order to be a threat.....I wish you guys could actually label some players SPOT UP SHOOTERS because that's exactly what he is now days.

I'm looking forward to seeing how all this turns out.....i would like to see this series return to the greatnest of years past.

Good post right here...Playmakers I've read a lot of your posts in the past and you obviously a) know your NBA and b) are passionate about seeing the CPU provide a challenging SIM experience.

On to your point:
- What I call point guard dominance in the AI is typically a result of the following two situations:
1)
* PG is going to usually bring the ball up the court
* With the ball in his hands, if the user isn't well positioned or provides a lane, then he's going to drive to the hoop
2)
* of all the guys on the floor, it's usually going to be the PG or the SG who takes the most 3s
* synergy does provide a catch and shoot tendency, as well as a spot up tendency
* when the ball carrier drives, if someone rotates and leaves someone open outside the arc who's got a fairly high catch & shoot rating (see D Fish), there's a good chance he'll get the pass, and then shoot, resulting in skewed stats.

I like your point about not shooting while guarded, I'm sure I can factor that into his tendency to catch & shoot.

[loadleft]

Re: 7 Minute NBA Elite 11 Video (Gamespot)

Good post right here...Playmakers I've read a lot of your posts in the past and you obviously a) know your NBA and b) are passionate about seeing the CPU provide a challenging SIM experience.

On to your point:
- What I call point guard dominance in the AI is typically a result of the following two situations:
1)
* PG is going to usually bring the ball up the court
* With the ball in his hands, if the user isn't well positioned or provides a lane, then he's going to drive to the hoop
2)
* of all the guys on the floor, it's usually going to be the PG or the SG who takes the most 3s
* synergy does provide a catch and shoot tendency, as well as a spot up tendency
* when the ball carrier drives, if someone rotates and leaves someone open outside the arc who's got a fairly high catch & shoot rating (see D Fish), there's a good chance he'll get the pass, and then shoot, resulting in skewed stats.

I like your point about not shooting while guarded, I'm sure I can factor that into his tendency to catch & shoot.

This again, is why I don't think you should base all/most the CPU's actions on being reactions to the user's defense. I say that because in another thread you mentioned providing a defensive counter to ever offensive action as way to keep the CPU and chessing in check. I think however, there should be reasons beyond the defense to not do unrealistic things or for the CPU to jack up 30 shots w/Fisher.

I think the CPU needs to have a philosophy programed in for each team that it tries to implement. I think it should be beyond the things that ratings and percentages allow. If the CPU had it as it's philosophy to play through Kobe (for instance) then even if Fisher has an opening wide enough that the ratings/AI calculated he should shoot he'd still have to factor in the teams philosophy.

Maybe there could be programing that allowed other shooters/players to go cold or some other negative effect if the team doesn't play according to it's game plan. That way if Fisher is continually left open and he takes the open shots, just like he should in real life, after 30 Fisher attempts Kobe or Gasol is out of rhythm. I am just saying there needs to be a reason to play realistically beyond just because the user likes it that way.

[ParisB]

Re: 7 Minute NBA Elite 11 Video (Gamespot)

This again, is why I don't think you should base all/most the CPU's actions on being reactions to the user's defense. I say that because in another thread you mentioned providing a defensive counter to ever offensive action as way to keep the CPU and chessing in check. I think however, there should be reasons beyond the defense to not do unrealistic things or for the CPU to jack up 30 shots w/Fisher.

I think the CPU needs to have a philosophy programed in for each team that it tries to implement. I think it should be beyond the things that ratings and percentages allow. If the CPU had it as it's philosophy to play through Kobe (for instance) then even if Fisher has an opening wide enough that the ratings/AI calculated he should shoot he'd still have to factor in the teams philosophy.

Maybe there could be programing that allowed other shooters/players to go cold or some other negative effect if the team doesn't play according to it's game plan. That way if Fisher is continually left open and he takes the open shots, just like he should in real life, after 30 Fisher attempts Kobe or Gasol is out of rhythm. I am just saying there needs to be a reason to play realistically beyond just because the user likes it that way.

That might open a potential for other problems and unrealistic gameplay with artificial hot/cold streaks. The problem is, if Fisher is open then he SHOULD be shooting, and he does in real life. Obviously it's not going to be 30 times per game, but if the User is constantly leaving him then chalk it up to bad User controlled defense.

I liked Playmakers idea though, that there should be a distinct rating for shooters categorized as spot up only or have the ability to shoot on the drive. Fisher is basically a strict "i'm spotting up and stepping into this shot in perfect rhythm" type of guy. It's VERY rare for him to shoot off balance or leaners etc. (at most he will take a strong side dribble off a pump fake and spot up again) Meanwhile, a guy like Nash can shoot in any position on any foot and so on.

Some guys also don't shoot heavily contested shots either (such as Kidd for example), while a Nash, Dwill, Cp3 can hit all types of shots and look to score.

I guess if they could somehow differentiate those type of guards a bit more..the ones who look to score and can score in multiple ways, and the ones that are more of distributors and shoot mostly when wide open and as spot up shooters. Not just guards, but other guys too.

[mharlem]

Re: 7 Minute NBA Elite 11 Video (Gamespot)

That might open a potential for other problems and unrealistic gameplay with artificial hot/cold streaks. The problem is, if Fisher is open then he SHOULD be shooting, and he does in real life. Obviously it's not going to be 30 times per game, but if the User is constantly leaving him then chalk it up to bad User controlled defense.

I liked Playmakers idea though, that there should be a distinct rating for shooters categorized as spot up only or have the ability to shoot on the drive. Fisher is basically a strict "i'm spotting up and stepping into this shot in perfect rhythm" type of guy. It's VERY rare for him to shoot off balance or leaners etc. (at most he will take a strong side dribble off a pump fake and spot up again) Meanwhile, a guy like Nash can shoot in any position on any foot and so on.

Some guys also don't shoot heavily contested shots either (such as Kidd for example), while a Nash, Dwill, Cp3 can hit all types of shots and look to score.

I guess if they could somehow differentiate those type of guards a bit more..the ones who look to score and can score in multiple ways, and the ones that are more of distributors and shoot mostly when wide open and as spot up shooters. Not just guards, but other guys too.

I agree with this 100%.

[loadleft]

Re: 7 Minute NBA Elite 11 Video (Gamespot)

That might open a potential for other problems and unrealistic gameplay with artificial hot/cold streaks. The problem is, if Fisher is open then he SHOULD be shooting, and he does in real life. Obviously it's not going to be 30 times per game, but if the User is constantly leaving him then chalk it up to bad User controlled defense.

I liked Playmakers idea though, that there should be a distinct rating for shooters categorized as spot up only or have the ability to shoot on the drive. Fisher is basically a strict "i'm spotting up and stepping into this shot in perfect rhythm" type of guy. It's VERY rare for him to shoot off balance or leaners etc. (at most he will take a strong side dribble off a pump fake and spot up again) Meanwhile, a guy like Nash can shoot in any position on any foot and so on.

Some guys also don't shoot heavily contested shots either (such as Kidd for example), while a Nash, Dwill, Cp3 can hit all types of shots and look to score.

I guess if they could somehow differentiate those type of guards a bit more..the ones who look to score and can score in multiple ways, and the ones that are more of distributors and shoot mostly when wide open and as spot up shooters. Not just guards, but other guys too.

My focus wasn't really on the going cold part, but more so if they use a strict set of instructions based on the user's defensive position like they have traditionally done to determine when the CPU shoots then it'll be rare to see the CPU play a style faithful to its real life counterpart, especially for users that play on-ball D. Because the user has no control of the defensive position of the player he doesn't control and then when he switches to the player guarding Fisher things could already be in motion. It doesn't have to be hot and cold streaks but there needs to be a reason why one would play sim (IMO). I always think if Fisher is such a good shooter that he can hit like this whenever he's open why don't the real Lakers just set screens, picks, and or whatever it takes to get him that open so he can shoot at such a high clip? Got to be a reason.

[loadleft]

Re: 7 Minute NBA Elite 11 Video (Gamespot)

Now that I think about it, it might not be artificial to go cold if teammates are "shot out of the game". Lots of players go cold when they stand around watching someone else shoot. I am sure synergy provides enough info to calculate how often (such as every 5 minutes or whatever) each player shoots in real life. It could easily be set that if they don't get within range of this frequency they could go cold. Just a thought, but my focus is mainly there is a reason why Fisher doesn't shoot that often and if he can shoot at above 50% or even low 40's from 3 as long as know one is in his face it would behoove the Lakers to get him more shots in that situation. Wouldn't it?

[ParisB]

Re: 7 Minute NBA Elite 11 Video (Gamespot)

Now that I think about it, it might not be artificial to go cold if teammates are "shot out of the game". Lots of players go cold when they stand around watching someone else shoot. I am sure synergy provides enough info to calculate how often (such as every 5 minutes or whatever) each player shoots in real life. It could easily be set that if they don't get within range of this frequency they could go cold. Just a thought, but my focus is mainly there is a reason why Fisher doesn't shoot that often and if he can shoot at above 50% or even low 40's from 3 as long as know one is in his face it would behoove the Lakers to get him more shots in that situation. Wouldn't it?

because the Lakers usually have an advantage at SG, PF, C positions and run their triangle offense through their big men and Kobe. Fisher knows his role.

A lot of guys are good shooters, that's part of why they're in the NBA...doesn't mean you cater the whole offense around them. You don't see Toronto running everything to get Kapono open, or Utah ignores Dwill and Boozer so Korver can shoot everything. And he does take the shots he needs to. That Game 3 in Boston, LA realized that if Kobe sets the pick on Fisher, both defenders would cheat towards Kobe...that's when Fisher was able to muster just enough offense and knock down the big shots.

I think a lot of this "advanced" programming can come later...as long as the core mechanics and controls are there, it will open up a solid foundation to build on. We have to have realistic expectations too, and we are playing a video game after all. It's going to be a LONG TIME before we start seeing perfect AI and perfect attributes/tendencies in which the CPU plays like the real players and teams and coaches, know what I mean?

[jfsolo]

Re: 7 Minute NBA Elite 11 Video (Gamespot)

The last few posts in this thread underscore how difficult it is to program in all the subtle nuances of what happens during a basketball game.

The idea about their being a negative consequence of players not getting enough touches is very important.

He's starting to mature a little more in this regard, but we know that Andrew Bynum has a tendency to slack off on the boards and on defense if he's not getting enough looks on offense.

Artest will get itchy if he hasn't had a look in a while and this will increase his likelihood of jacking up an ill advised 3 when he does get the rock.

Farmar and Brown's defense and decision making improve immensely, when they get out and get a couple of dunks in transition.

Lamar will start boarding and blocking shots if he feels like the ref has jobbed him on a couple of calls in a row.

Getting all the A.I. controlled players(through the use of ratings and tendencies) to play with all of the real life nuances they possess, which are often antithetical to fundamentally sound, text book basketball, is the real challenge for developers.

I understand the need to optimize the hands on experience for the User, but that is only a part of the equation. The C.P.U. teammates and opponents need to be up to snuff as well.

[Playmakers]

Re: 7 Minute NBA Elite 11 Video (Gamespot)

Good post right here...Playmakers I've read a lot of your posts in the past and you obviously a) know your NBA and b) are passionate about seeing the CPU provide a challenging SIM experience.

On to your point:
- What I call point guard dominance in the AI is typically a result of the following two situations:
1)
* PG is going to usually bring the ball up the court
* With the ball in his hands, if the user isn't well positioned or provides a lane, then he's going to drive to the hoop
2)
* of all the guys on the floor, it's usually going to be the PG or the SG who takes the most 3s
* synergy does provide a catch and shoot tendency, as well as a spot up tendency
* when the ball carrier drives, if someone rotates and leaves someone open outside the arc who's got a fairly high catch & shoot rating (see D Fish), there's a good chance he'll get the pass, and then shoot, resulting in skewed stats.

I like your point about not shooting while guarded, I'm sure I can factor that into his tendency to catch & shoot.

That was a real quick response....

I'm glad you guys are listening to feedback because in years past I didn't feel like the player ratings and tendencies were being looked at closely while the game was under development before being released.

Thanks for giving the player tendencies a hard look this year. I'm more into offline dynasty play and that's why CPU/AI tendencies are really important for me and I'm sure many other NBA Elite/Live supporters in the community.

[loadleft]

Re: 7 Minute NBA Elite 11 Video (Gamespot)

because the Lakers usually have an advantage at SG, PF, C positions and run their triangle offense through their big men and Kobe. Fisher knows his role.

A lot of guys are good shooters, that's part of why they're in the NBA...doesn't mean you cater the whole offense around them. You don't see Toronto running everything to get Kapono open, or Utah ignores Dwill and Boozer so Korver can shoot everything. And he does take the shots he needs to. That Game 3 in Boston, LA realized that if Kobe sets the pick on Fisher, both defenders would cheat towards Kobe...that's when Fisher was able to muster just enough offense and knock down the big shots.

I think a lot of this "advanced" programming can come later...as long as the core mechanics and controls are there, it will open up a solid foundation to build on. We have to have realistic expectations too, and we are playing a video game after all. It's going to be a LONG TIME before we start seeing perfect AI and perfect attributes/tendencies in which the CPU plays like the real players and teams and coaches, know what I mean?

Precisely my point! Not a lot of time to chat about it now though. Just a suggestion for the devs they can take it or leave it just like with everything else. I'll buy the game, if I like it keep it if not get rid of it.

[©roke]

Re: 7 Minute NBA Elite 11 Video (Gamespot)

Yes, passing has been completely overhauled. It's not done yet, but we're trying to address all concerns mentioned in the post.

The main motivation behind revamping the passing system is to make the whole thing more reactive to physics so you can see more tips, deflections, stuff like that.

As a result we've needed to make passing "smarter" since the ball can't just pass through an opponent.

Responsiveness, momentum and pass type selection are all being worked on as a result.

That pass type selection is in our hands? Can we do different type of passes on purpose?

[ParisB]

Re: 7 Minute NBA Elite 11 Video (Gamespot)

Precisely my point! Not a lot of time to chat about it now though. Just a suggestion for the devs they can take it or leave it just like with everything else. I'll buy the game, if I like it keep it if not get rid of it.

yea, we're almost arguing the same thing it seems....it's sort of a catch-22

Fisher doesn't shoot a lot and drop 25+ points in real life, but given the right game situation he's a very capable shooter and scorer...so although it's unrealistic to see him do this in Live/Elite, at the same time you can't really blame the CPU for taking its opportunities if they're constantly there.

As long as they strongly look at the tendencies (back to what Playmakers said), i think it will be a strong step to obtaining better results.

But i really don't want them to incorporate some sort of artificial hot/cold streaks or psychological tendencies such as confidence and such because it will never be perfect and it will start leading to other problems.

I say one step at a time.

p.s.- speaking of confidence, it's one of the few problems hampering MLB The Show. They tried to incorporate pitchers confidence, but while it's a good idea on paper, you start seeing unrealistic/artificial drops or spikes in confidence where you see scrub pitchers transform into cy youn pitchers, while brass balled elite pitchers like Halladay get reduced to emo self destructive pitchers when they make 1 user controlled mistake etc.

I'm terrified of seeing similar problems in Elite, where if you take 3 shots in a row (even open ones) with a Luke Walton, and all of a sudden you can't score with Gasol if he goes 5 possessions without touching it, or if Kobe gets hot, doesn't mean all of a sudden you should stop shooting with him. Know what I mean?

It will also be too tall of a task to ask Devs to figure out how every player reacts in every situation with their own psyche and stuff