Pucking Ridiculous (The OBG Chronicles): Developer Dialogue

[Winnipeg59]

Re: Pucking Ridiculous (The OBG Chronicles): Developer Dialogue

Great thread.

Obviously you will not be able to satisfy all the people, all the time. For some gameplay is a priority, for others it's stats, realistic simming, better drafting and yet others want a realistic avatar black-eye when they finish a fight. And there are passionate people who trumpet each of those things as "live or die" features they need and voice their passion accordingly.

From a business standpoint, I'm sure the developers are either concerned with or guided in specific directions to develop and expand their brand. They have to walk the precarious tightrope of keeping the core users (and hardcore users) happy and excited each release, yet also find a way to bring more people to the party that is EA NHL. And that may mean totally casual users who may not even have a clue about hockey...and putting things in the game that a hardcore user simply can't imagine spending precious development time on!

The internet gives everyone a relatively equal voice and sometimes the vocal minority take better advantage of that.

Constructive criticsm and well thought out suggestions from one side should be balanced with communication and response (while maintaining the intergrity of the business) from the other side.

Making sure whatever the developers/EA do decide to put into the game works as flawlessly as possible, either out-of-the-box or via timely patches, so that both hardcore and newcomer are impressed (even blown away) goes long and hard to keeping any/all EA NHL fans thrilled!

Ultimately it's probably better to have even rigorous debate than to have users simply go elsewhere with whatever disposable income they have...

That too is always the fine line the developers walk!

Either way, I am excited about what NHL11 will have for me when it arrives!!!

[Bama83]

Re: Pucking Ridiculous (The OBG Chronicles): Developer Dialogue

I think my biggest issue is that they don't share with us the "road map" that they envision. While it's great having them pop in from time to time, I think that communication needs to be constantly present. Tell us why or how you're listening to ideas and why things can and can't be done.

I know there is the whole "marketing" hoopla that they feel they need to generate "buzz", but the truth is - people aren't so easily bought off on features. I think it's a poor move to not give us more insight into where they anticipate improvements.

With a full disclosure (or even a more thorough disclosure) like that, the developers and the community can corroborate on unprecedented levels.

Incorporate questionnaires inside the game while loading screens are ... well... loading. Ask the community what is important.

I think the secrecy about their plans only creates frustration. They market this game like they do every other genre of video games and I truly think it's a disservice.

That's my gripe.

[b3organ]

Re: Pucking Ridiculous (The OBG Chronicles): Developer Dialogue

I totally agree with Bama83 (above post) but I think the situation is so that the devs are also open-minded and they would/want to tell us nearly everything they know but the business world is made so that they are not allowed. It is same thing in all "sectors". People who develop cars, phones, computers are not allowed to talk about their product before publishing. There are always those who control what can be said at certain time of dev cycle.

[Game4fun]

Wish I new more about Hockey. Sometime I will pick it up. I'm big on football and basketball. Someday. I agree about showing the devs some respect.

[JimPaek]

I appreciate the work put into the game. However, there can always be the little things that can hurt the game for some people. It's no different every year. I played NHL10 less than any other year because of some small, but important, flaws (like players not wanting to change lines and get off the ice, etc.) that would not help my enjoyment of the game.

That being said, I do think that the NHL team appears to be plugged into the community and strives to make the best game possible. Unfortunately for everyone, they haven't mastered a perfect game yet,

[Redshirt_EA]

Re: Pucking Ridiculous (The OBG Chronicles): Developer Dialogue

Some thoughts on the subject...

For the most part people behave with civility towards devs on forums, esp. on OS. It is the internet and it is more or less anonymous, so a certain amount of garbage is to be expected and with that understanding I have no real complaints about how things go. I don't want dev presence here to change how the boards work, esp. with respect to rules for posting and censoring.

Contrary to what's been suggested by one of the posts devs do not have to post here. It is not part of our jobs and we have to go out of our way to be allowed to post on forums. There are people who have the job of doing PR, devs jobs are to make the game. For a dev, hours spent on forums are hours not spent directly on improving the game, or hours taken from personal time (overwhelmingly the latter, when there's a distinction between the two). I think the feedback from forums, along with playing the game ourselves, is essential to the job. That's a big part of why I'm here, but that is my own decision.

Posting can be quite awkward for a dev for a number of reasons. There are things we can't say, e.g. future plans that are (or may be) business sensitive, and things I can't discuss because they were not my decision or in my area of responsibility. Dealing with criticism can also be awkward because we don't control the resources that are available, which is typically what limits us from doing more. For me these limitations are the biggest challenge being here and most of the headaches interacting in the forums come from people who can't separate me, as an individual developer, from NHL as a whole or EA as a company.

[JMBOO]

Re: Pucking Ridiculous (The OBG Chronicles): Developer Dialogue

Well hello Redshirt. Always nice to see you here. Looking sexy as ever.

Whilst I agree with the underlying thought about being respectful to the devs that post here, it just does not seem to be that bad really in this forum.

I think most of the members that post here have a great deal of respect for Redshirt and his team. Honestly, when you have a guy that will take the time to not only expain, but also show a novice how to post properly, it says alot about what kind of person you are dealing with and why he has earned the respect of the community.

I mean, you will always have those who have no respect, that is just how it is. And, you will always have hot-button issues which usually tend to bring out the baser aspects of people, and this is just usually the result of being passionate about something. However, in the end, I guess I just do not see the NHL forum as a place where the devs are being really disrespected.

[Peter_OS]

Re: Pucking Ridiculous (The OBG Chronicles): Developer Dialogue

I can see where you're going, but honestly - that's their job. To sell games. How do you best do this? Give what the consumer wants.

I'm not saying people need to treat the devs like animals, but this is what they are PAID TO DO. The truth is - the developers should be thanking us on a daily basis for keeping them employed and doing something they enjoy.

It's like giving a hug to your waiter at the local cafe -- after you've paid for your meal and left a hearty tip.

Well said Bama. I agree. At the end of the day it's all about the consumer, and what they want to see in a game. We are the ones who are going to fork out our hard earned $$ to buy their games. They need to listen and take criticism at the same time. It's their job to do so. Like you said, without us they wouldn't be employed and doing something they enjoy.

[onlybygrace]

Re: Pucking Ridiculous (The OBG Chronicles): Developer Dialogue

Some thoughts on the subject...

For the most part people behave with civility towards devs on forums, esp. on OS. It is the internet and it is more or less anonymous, so a certain amount of garbage is to be expected and with that understanding I have no real complaints about how things go. I don't want dev presence here to change how the boards work, esp. with respect to rules for posting and censoring.

Contrary to what's been suggested by one of the posts devs do not have to post here. It is not part of our jobs and we have to go out of our way to be allowed to post on forums. There are people who have the job of doing PR, devs jobs are to make the game. For a dev, hours spent on forums are hours not spent directly on improving the game, or hours taken from personal time (overwhelmingly the latter, when there's a distinction between the two). I think the feedback from forums, along with playing the game ourselves, is essential to the job. That's a big part of why I'm here, but that is my own decision.

Posting can be quite awkward for a dev for a number of reasons. There are things we can't say, e.g. future plans that are (or may be) business sensitive, and things I can't discuss because they were not my decision or in my area of responsibility. Dealing with criticism can also be awkward because we don't control the resources that are available, which is typically what limits us from doing more. For me these limitations are the biggest challenge being here and most of the headaches interacting in the forums come from people who can't separate me, as an individual developer, from NHL as a whole or EA as a company.

Thanks for the feedback, Redshirt.

[speels]

Re: Pucking Ridiculous (The OBG Chronicles): Developer Dialogue

I can see where you're going, but honestly - that's their job. To sell games. How do you best do this? Give what the consumer wants.

I'm not saying people need to treat the devs like animals, but this is what they are PAID TO DO. The truth is - the developers should be thanking us on a daily basis for keeping them employed and doing something they enjoy.

It's like giving a hug to your waiter at the local cafe -- after you've paid for your meal and left a hearty tip.

While I do agree with you that it is what they get paid to do, I also believe that there is one thing to remember. To continue with the waiter analogy, as long as you are courteous to a waiter you will normally get good service, but be an *** once and don't leave a tip and see if you don't get a snot sandwich the next time you have that same waiter.

Too many people use the excuse that "they get paid to do it." inorder to make themselves feel better about treating others like garbage. I always look at it like "how would I feel if someone said that to me?" The way I like to be "helped" is a little praise then tell me what I could do to improve.

If the person speaking to me can't think of anything that is good, then hopefully all they say is "You suck!" and they leave me alone. I think OBG is talking about the posters with an "Agenda". They tell the devs there game sucks, but they say it everywhere (many threads) whereas they should let it go at once. I.E. "I do not enjoy your game." end of story, don't post about it again. Not everyone is going to like every game, but just say your piece and let it be.

[Redshirt_EA]

Re: Pucking Ridiculous (The OBG Chronicles): Developer Dialogue

If you really want a restaurant analogy chef would be far better comparison than waiter.

[plaidchuck]

Re: Pucking Ridiculous (The OBG Chronicles): Developer Dialogue

Well I agree that you should be civil and courteous in EVERYTHING you do, whether it's interactions in real life or a message board like this. At the same time I don't think it's wrong to show a wee bit of frustration(still in a respectful manner) with a certain aspect of a game especially if it has been in multiple iterations of the game. Of course the more constructive the criticism, the better.

I just become annoyed when people do make constructive posts and some other members immediately jump on their case acting like they're simply a troll because they made a criticism or point about the game. Or they have the strange attitude "don't say anything negative because the devs will get mad and never listen to us again"

[onlybygrace]

Re: Pucking Ridiculous (The OBG Chronicles): Developer Dialogue

Well I agree that you should be civil and courteous in EVERYTHING you do, whether it's interactions in real life or a message board like this. At the same time I don't think it's wrong to show a wee bit of frustration(still in a respectful manner) with a certain aspect of a game especially if it has been in multiple iterations of the game. Of course the more constructive the criticism, the better.

I just become annoyed when people do make constructive posts and some other members immediately jump on their case acting like they're simply a troll because they made a criticism or point about the game. Or they have the strange attitude "don't say anything negative because the devs will get mad and never listen to us again"

I'd be the first one to admit that I've been guilty of that, but many posters really have no idea where to draw the line between whining and complaining constructively.

Also, constructive critism looses its constructivity when it is brought up repeatedly and then some.

If someone has a problem:

*Start a thread or find related one.

*Address the problem, explaining specifically what it is and how/why it bothers you.

*Offer some ideas as to how you believe it should be fixed. Many fail on this point. They complain and then proceed to forget that they've left nothing but their complaint for everyone else to figure out. If someone will bother to complain, maybe that same someone should bother to offer some ideas on how a specified problem should be fixed.

*Try not to mention it over and over again. Like 'speels' posted in his 3rd paragraph, its really the 'agenda' posters I was referencing. We've all seen them, they're the guys who'll come around and seem as though they are absolutely hellbent on sounding off until all OSers know just how they feel.

I will explain this in the 2nd edition of Pucking Ridiculous (The OBG Chronicles).

Its 12:50 and time to go to sleep. Peace.

[Redshirt_EA]

Re: Pucking Ridiculous (The OBG Chronicles): Developer Dialogue

Well I agree that you should be civil and courteous in EVERYTHING you do, whether it's interactions in real life or a message board like this. At the same time I don't think it's wrong to show a wee bit of frustration(still in a respectful manner) with a certain aspect of a game especially if it has been in multiple iterations of the game. Of course the more constructive the criticism, the better.

I just become annoyed when people do make constructive posts and some other members immediately jump on their case acting like they're simply a troll because they made a criticism or point about the game. Or they have the strange attitude "don't say anything negative because the devs will get mad and never listen to us again"

Agree completely with this. Honestly I don't think there's much need to worry about how things go here, it is very rarely outside of what I'd consider constructive. EA Forums are much worse, it took me all of 10 seconds there to find an example of what isn't useful:

http://forum.ea.com/eaforum/posts/list/1117158.page

It could have been very easy for the poster there to recast his criticism in a more reasonable form -- with less hyperbole and less bile. Imagine how reading that makes someone who's just finished two months of 90-100 hour work weeks feel. I'm pretty numb to it by now, but I certainly don't push any of the younger devs on the team to subject themselves to it because I think it could affect their morale. If there are shortcomings in the game it certainly isn't for lack of effort (or ability I suggest) on the part of any developer who would be taking the time to go looking for feedback, so the attitude of that poster is completely misguided.

It is pretty much a non-issue on OS.

[milesizdead]

Re: Pucking Ridiculous (The OBG Chronicles): Developer Dialogue

Yeah EA forums can get quite venomous

They must be quite frustrating at times to moderate, so hats off to those guys!

At least it shows how passionate folks are about the NHL series?

Much respect for Redshirt for coming here, and EA´s forums occasionally, to give us some contact to the devs...You make a wicked game you do.

Now just please work on Euro servers and get rid of looping