NBA Elite 11 Blog: Real Physics

[tybud]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Blog: Real Physics

One thing i want people to think about is how much pre-determined animations ruin the randomness of play in a way.

U know how in basketball games of recent..you'd see a off ball player start a cutting animation? Well when you see that, you pretty much know whats gonna happen once u see it start because the "look" of it is scripted and you immediatly notice the difference between THAT animation and regular universal animations such as running animations and so on. This applies to alot of things. That is a downside to having all these extra animations just for look instead of gameplay.

I'd actually like off ball cuts and plays being ran under the same basic universal animations that are used during regular running around the court...that way you can't really tell that a "special cut animation" is going to happen...and the opponent cant really tell exactly what you're doing. Does anybody understand what im talking about? Its kind of hard to explain to where all you guys can probably understand me, but im sure one of the developers know what im talking about.

This is the problem with 2k....yes they have alot of beautiful animations...but most of them are just for eye candy and actually take away from the raw gameplay and control. They kind of make things less competitive between human players because most of them happen out of our control and they make everything predictable. I dont want to see a up and under move and know exactly whats going to happen because the animation looks so much more "realistic" than the basic base animations.

With that said...developers should still aim to make sure those basic base animations are of the best quality possible so they can look as realistic as possible without taking away control.

i no exactly what your saying good job dog.

[NoTiCe_O]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Blog: Real Physics

One thing i want people to think about is how much pre-determined animations ruin the randomness of play in a way.

U know how in basketball games of recent..you'd see a off ball player start a cutting animation? Well when you see that, you pretty much know whats gonna happen once u see it start because the "look" of it is scripted and you immediatly notice the difference between THAT animation and regular universal animations such as running animations and so on. This applies to alot of things. That is a downside to having all these extra animations just for look instead of gameplay.

I'd actually like off ball cuts and plays being ran under the same basic universal animations that are used during regular running around the court...that way you can't really tell that a "special cut animation" is going to happen...and the opponent cant really tell exactly what you're doing. Does anybody understand what im talking about? Its kind of hard to explain to where all you guys can probably understand me, but im sure one of the developers know what im talking about.

This is the problem with 2k....yes they have alot of beautiful animations...but most of them are just for eye candy and actually take away from the raw gameplay and control. They kind of make things less competitive between human players because most of them happen out of our control and they make everything predictable. I dont want to see a up and under move and know exactly whats going to happen because the animation looks so much more "realistic" than the basic base animations.

With that said...developers should still aim to make sure those basic base animations are of the best quality possible so they can look as realistic as possible without taking away control.

I know what you mean, and that up and under animation is a perfect example, in nba elite you can choose how to work the post not choose certain animations, like there is no automatic get around dropstep animation, or automatic dribble spin.

They give you the moves and you choose how to pull em off, if the D is shoving you in the post you can time their shove and dropstep right around it because thats bball fundamentals. Also with the up and unders in Elite you can choose which hand to finish with after the up and under its not an animation. No one post game will be the same. People are gonna play to their style, its actually real basketball

I just feel like with Elite you'll really be able to see who's good at the game and who's not. Because in this game no one i gonna have an exploit to keep using so each game will be different, playing online each game is gonna bring a different experience depending on skill level. So when your moving up the ranks you'll be able to tell the difference between the good and the bad.

[Jano]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Blog: Real Physics

I know what you mean, and that up and under animation is a perfect example, in nba elite you can choose how to work the post not choose certain animations, like there is no automatic get around dropstep animation, or automatic dribble spin.

They give you the moves and you choose how to pull em off, if the D is shoving you in the post you can time their shove and dropstep right around it because thats bball fundamentals. Also with the up and unders in Elite you can choose which hand to finish with after the up and under its not an animation. No one post game will be the same. People are gonna play to their style, its actually real basketball

I just feel like with Elite you'll really be able to see who's good at the game and who's not. Because in this game no one i gonna have an exploit to keep using so each game will be different, playing online each game is gonna bring a different experience depending on skill level. So when your moving up the ranks you'll be able to tell the difference between the good and the bad.

Well thats the plan at least.. We'll see how it plays it when the demo drops its going to take a lot tuning to get it to that level.

I just hope they can get closer to that kind of gameplay this year..

[23]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Blog: Real Physics

I completely respect your opinion here. Everyone has different priorities and views on what is important.

Elite won't have fewer signature moves from Live so it's not like we took anything away. We simply chose to put our focus on gameplay fundamentals and control this year.

Im not sure how what im asking doesn't fall under gameplay.

Im hearing a ton of talk about controls which is fine, but what im saying is, are you telling me that there is absolutely no way to have both?

I know people continue to use the word canned animations but thats obviously not what im talking about.

The difference of Kobe in Live 09 and Live 10 shooting a fadeaway for instance... well in Live 09 he turned both ways and had a fade shot depending on the side he turned on

In Live 10 everyone had that wack Raptor claw looking fadeaway which made the shot just purely generic and stale.

Yes I have questions and opinions just as any other, but Im also being fed alot of authentic and real time talk and im wondering where this stuff fits in.

I absolutely cannot understand why a game has to be either all controls or all animations. From what we've seen so far, pics and videos, KD and Bron dribble the same, Jennings's reverse layup looks just like Melo's. A couple of months of seeing that and you can see how it can start to feel stale.

[rEAnimator]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Blog: Real Physics

Im not sure how what im asking doesn't fall under gameplay.

Im hearing a ton of talk about controls which is fine, but what im saying is, are you telling me that there is absolutely no way to have both?

I know people continue to use the word canned animations but thats obviously not what im talking about.

The difference of Kobe in Live 09 and Live 10 shooting a fadeaway for instance... well in Live 09 he turned both ways and had a fade shot depending on the side he turned on

In Live 10 everyone had that wack Raptor claw looking fadeaway which made the shot just purely generic and stale.

Yes I have questions and opinions just as any other, but Im also being fed alot of authentic and real time talk and im wondering where this stuff fits in.

I absolutely cannot understand why a game has to be either all controls or all animations. From what we've seen so far, pics and videos, KD and Bron dribble the same, Jennings's reverse layup looks just like Melo's. A couple of months of seeing that and you can see how it can start to feel stale.

I know exactly what you're talking about, and you're right, there is no reason that you can't have both. But to this point I would argue that you have never had both in either product.

We simply didn't have the time to make all the gameplay improvements we did and focus on improving the signature aspect of the game significantly.

We had to make a choice, not because it's impossible, but because we had to make a call on priorities.

I'll explain why I said I don't think it affects gameplay.

If I have an animation that jumps X feet in the air, takes Y seconds to complete and releases the ball at a height of Z then that will directly affect gameplay.

The higher he is the harder it will be to block, the longer it takes the easier it will be to block.

In previous years, which animation you picked would affect those parameters.

This year we're procedurally modifying many of those aspects of the animations (not all of them yet, but that's our end goal).

So for the things that truly matter to gameplay, we'll have an infinite variety (again, not along every dimension...yet).

We'll use ratings and physics to drive the parameters of those animations.

However, how much his leg kicks out, or what angle his arm is bent, if if he sticks his tongue out or not has absolutely zero impact on gameplay. It won't change the outcome of the shot, it won't make it harder or easier for the defenders to block the shot.

Now, I completely agree that this stuff matters in the sense that it can break the sense of immersion in the game. We all want the players to look like their real life counterparts for that reason.

But it has no impact on gameplay. They could be running around on their hands and shooting with their feet and the game would play exactly the same as long as the animations had the same properties in the areas where it matters.

Yes the game would look stupid, but it would play the same.

Hopefully that helps explain what I meant.

I'm not trying to downplay something that you clearly feel strongly about. I respect that and it definitely matters.

But we made a call, and we chose to focus on controls and gameplay for this year.

We'll go nuts with the sig stuff next year not that our base gameplay and control systems are solid.

[mario_2324]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Blog: Real Physics

Thanks for clearing that up.......I guess it makes it hard for u 2 try and explain this in many different ways huh? lol.....I had a question...due 2 the physics and the whole new rebounding, is there chances a over the back can be called?

[23]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Blog: Real Physics

I understand the whole control aspects, physics, etc...

I am not against any of that stuff. I never had that much of an issue with dribbling mechanics, and truth be told the ratings in this game was so messed up that it caused alot of the issues we were having along with whatever else was wrong in the game.

It made no sense to beat a guy off of a pump fake and he magically gains the speed and endruance to get back in front of me to stop my progress because his defensive recovery was sky high, and im talking guys who get burned on the regular such as a Derek Fisher

Anyhow, I understand you guys had priorities and so on but seeing people in here refer to canned animations as if that is what anyone is asking for is crazy. When I refer to animations yes the control to do whatever is nice, but at the same time again, its just me, but if there is no individual variances the game will still feel generic.

From playing the last 3 versions of this game that kind of a thing makes for a fun basketball game, but doesnt give you the feel of a true authentic NBA basketball game all around.

Thats just me though.

[NoTiCe_O]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Blog: Real Physics

I understand the whole control aspects, physics, etc...

I am not against any of that stuff. I never had that much of an issue with dribbling mechanics, and truth be told the ratings in this game was so messed up that it caused alot of the issues we were having along with whatever else was wrong in the game.

It made no sense to beat a guy off of a pump fake and he magically gains the speed and endruance to get back in front of me to stop my progress because his defensive recovery was sky high, and im talking guys who get burned on the regular such as a Derek Fisher

Anyhow, I understand you guys had priorities and so on but seeing people in here refer to canned animations as if that is what anyone is asking for is crazy. When I refer to animations yes the control to do whatever is nice, but at the same time again, its just me, but if there is no individual variances the game will still feel generic.

From playing the last 3 versions of this game that kind of a thing makes for a fun basketball game, but doesnt give you the feel of a true authentic NBA basketball game all around.

Thats just me though.

If you think about it the things that were generic in the last games as you say were mostly rebounding, steals, drives to the lane, shot blocks, post moves, some dribbling moves, and that one fadeaway .. But with elite their is basically an infinite number of animations for everything i bolded, so you'll basically see something dif. every game. Its not like there's no sig shots or dunks/layups at all theres just not as much depth as the competiton, and i for one can deal with that.

I think theres gonna be even more variety now, because theres that feeling of you don't know what can happen or who's gonna grab what rebound theres no hints in the animations, and to me thats more authentic than lebron biting his fingernails or kobe having a patented reverse lay up, elite can add that in at a later date. That's most likely why it not a major focus, I can understand where they're coming from. The game is jut missing some layers in that signature animation department which shouldn't be hard to add ..

[YoungG]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Blog: Real Physics

just out of curiosity, will there be any downloadable content that they may have that could maybe add some more physics or animations to the game or would that all have to be during the development cycle?

[noshun]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Blog: Real Physics

just out of curiosity, will there be any downloadable content that they may have that could maybe add some more physics or animations to the game or would that all have to be during the development cycle?

I doubt it, that's where the 'we'll try to fix it next year' shows up for the 6th year in a row with EA NBA basketball. At some point you gotta stop, and wonder how many times are you gonna hear them say 'next year'.
People have so many excuses for this, and it's beyond rediculous.

We're in year 6 of EA building from the ground up,.... comedy.

[gmix411]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Blog: Real Physics

I know exactly what you're talking about, and you're right, there is no reason that you can't have both. But to this point I would argue that you have never had both in either product.

We simply didn't have the time to make all the gameplay improvements we did and focus on improving the signature aspect of the game significantly.

We had to make a choice, not because it's impossible, but because we had to make a call on priorities.

I'll explain why I said I don't think it affects gameplay.

If I have an animation that jumps X feet in the air, takes Y seconds to complete and releases the ball at a height of Z then that will directly affect gameplay.

The higher he is the harder it will be to block, the longer it takes the easier it will be to block.

In previous years, which animation you picked would affect those parameters.

This year we're procedurally modifying many of those aspects of the animations (not all of them yet, but that's our end goal).

So for the things that truly matter to gameplay, we'll have an infinite variety (again, not along every dimension...yet).

We'll use ratings and physics to drive the parameters of those animations.

However, how much his leg kicks out, or what angle his arm is bent, if if he sticks his tongue out or not has absolutely zero impact on gameplay. It won't change the outcome of the shot, it won't make it harder or easier for the defenders to block the shot.

Now, I completely agree that this stuff matters in the sense that it can break the sense of immersion in the game. We all want the players to look like their real life counterparts for that reason.

But it has no impact on gameplay. They could be running around on their hands and shooting with their feet and the game would play exactly the same as long as the animations had the same properties in the areas where it matters.

Yes the game would look stupid, but it would play the same.

Hopefully that helps explain what I meant.

I'm not trying to downplay something that you clearly feel strongly about. I respect that and it definitely matters.

But we made a call, and we chose to focus on controls and gameplay for this year.

We'll go nuts with the sig stuff next year not that our base gameplay and control systems are solid.

I'm all for control and gameplay improvement and I agree that you guys should focus on those aspects of the game but it's disappointing not to see signature fadeaways, called go-to-moves, because they were in live 09 and were removed in live 10. Can't you guys just add the old signature fadeaways?

[tybud]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Blog: Real Physics

I know exactly what you're talking about, and you're right, there is no reason that you can't have both. But to this point I would argue that you have never had both in either product.

We simply didn't have the time to make all the gameplay improvements we did and focus on improving the signature aspect of the game significantly.

We had to make a choice, not because it's impossible, but because we had to make a call on priorities.

I'll explain why I said I don't think it affects gameplay.

If I have an animation that jumps X feet in the air, takes Y seconds to complete and releases the ball at a height of Z then that will directly affect gameplay.

The higher he is the harder it will be to block, the longer it takes the easier it will be to block.

In previous years, which animation you picked would affect those parameters.

This year we're procedurally modifying many of those aspects of the animations (not all of them yet, but that's our end goal).

So for the things that truly matter to gameplay, we'll have an infinite variety (again, not along every dimension...yet).

We'll use ratings and physics to drive the parameters of those animations.

However, how much his leg kicks out, or what angle his arm is bent, if if he sticks his tongue out or not has absolutely zero impact on gameplay. It won't change the outcome of the shot, it won't make it harder or easier for the defenders to block the shot.

Now, I completely agree that this stuff matters in the sense that it can break the sense of immersion in the game. We all want the players to look like their real life counterparts for that reason.

But it has no impact on gameplay. They could be running around on their hands and shooting with their feet and the game would play exactly the same as long as the animations had the same properties in the areas where it matters.

Yes the game would look stupid, but it would play the same.

Hopefully that helps explain what I meant.

I'm not trying to downplay something that you clearly feel strongly about. I respect that and it definitely matters.

But we made a call, and we chose to focus on controls and gameplay for this year.

We'll go nuts with the sig stuff next year not that our base gameplay and control systems are solid.

Does that mean that every players cross over will look the same, like for instance if i crossed over with deron williams and then crossed over with andrew bynum will it look the same, i no the speed of the cross over will be a huge difference but what about the machanics of the dribble.

[coolcras7]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Blog: Real Physics

I think they matter also, but it I personally can do without them for a year if everything else works out. I would then like it to be the focus for next years game.

LOL, that is horrible way of thinking, maybe they should take out NBA from the title as well for a year if it's okay for everyone to be generic, The reason we play NBA basketball games is to recreate what we see on TV, we want the joy of shooting like Kobe or dunking like Wade we want to recreate signature element without them what's the point of playing if everyone moves and acts the same, I understand what EA is going is completely different from anything done before and it may not be perfect this year and will take some time to perfect, but to act like it wont affect the over all experience of playing Elite is ridiculous.

[Super Glock]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Blog: Real Physics

LOL, that is horrible way of thinking, maybe they should take out NBA from the title as well for a year if it's okay for everyone to be generic, The reason we play NBA basketball games is to recreate what we see on TV, we want the joy of shooting like Kobe or dunking like Wade we want to recreate signature element without them what's the point of playing if everyone moves and acts the same, I understand what EA is going is completely different from anything done before and it may not be perfect this year and will take some time to perfect, but to act like it wont affect the over all experience of playing Elite is ridiculous.

Obviously you are not following what I am saying so let me go a little slower for you. Of course it takes away from the overall experience of the game, never said that it didn't. But they didn't have time to add everything in this year and I totally understand that. So I will be happy this year if they nailed down the core gameplay and then work on sig styles for next year. Have you read the above posts by the NBA Elite developer...

[coolcras7]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Blog: Real Physics

Obviously you are not following what I am saying so let me go a little slower for you. Of course it takes away from the overall experience of the game, never said that it didn't. But they didn't have time to add everything in this year and I totally understand that. So I will be happy this year if they nailed down the core gameplay and then work on sig styles for next year. Have you read the above posts by the NBA Elite developer...

I understand everything you said, but the fact still remains if everyone act and plays the same then game will not be a try sim game at release this year, like I said it is good that they are looking towards the future but at the present they might suffer for that, and what worries me is that Elite sales number and rating will suffer because of this and EA is in the business of making money, so I just don't want another shake up and starting over from scratch next year if they don't meet hyped expectation, and face it with the other game having you know who on the cover means they will get alot of press and sales and Elites new feature may not be enough to grab the average user especially if the can't imitate there NBA heroes exactly.