NBA Elite 11 Blog: Real Physics

[rEAnimator]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Blog: Real Physics

I think alot of people are still thinking it's all about controls and physics because that's all we've pretty much heard about, so they feel that's the only thing the Elite team has been working on. Gameplay is the focus but there's more to gameplay than just controls.

I'm guessing and hoping that they have a lot of other improvements that they made, we just haven't heard about them yet. It's still very early as far as getting out info so lets see what else they did with the game.

This is bang on. There are a lot of things outside of core gameplay that have not yet been announced or discussed at all yet.

[rEAnimator]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Blog: Real Physics

You're right loadleft that's all we've been hearing about is controls, but I gotta believe there's more to this game than that. Hopefully soon we'll get some info on some other aspects of the game.

The new controls forced us to look at absolutely everything. Well, controls and the physics and the removal of the two man animations.

But they're all tied together and you couldn't really have one without doing a lot of work on the other three.

If you wanted to do it right that is.

[Jano]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Blog: Real Physics

This whole physics engine sounds great because it seems like its goin to be able to fix a lot of my biggest issues with Live last year. A lot of that came from me losing control at times when I didn't want to so this one directly addressed that concern.

It also seems like this is going to bring that unpredicability into the game this year that's been missing in the Live series for the longest. For the past few years every iteration of Live has gotten old not just because of the animations but simply b/c every player felt the same.

Nobody felt that different from one another because everyone was subject to the same physics system. Earl Boykins could hack Shaq just as well as any big man. Lebron going down the lane at full speed felt basically the same way as it did with Allen Iverson, only difference was Lebron could dunk in traffic.

The new physics system can change that up and make players actually feel different from one another. That alone adds a lot to the gameplay b/c then you have to think about how you attack the basket now.

It'll make you think twice about goin in the paint with little guys knowing that finishing on big men will actually be tough. Itll separate the quick guards like CP3 from the physical ones like Chauncy.

You may be able to go in and take the contact with Billups but you may want to avoid the big man with CP3. Because you know that the contact will actually matter now as you go up.

This type of gameplay or way of thinking is something I've been waiting on for a while so hopefully EA can actually deliver on this. It has the potential to make each game feel different on both ends of the floor. And not only but the strategic element of the game will probably improve too.

Because you as the user will have to worry about those factors I stated above. So running the pick and roll w/ CP3 will not just be something you want to use b/c it works in real life. But also because its actually something that will make sense in game too.

It gives you the ability to spread out the defense so that when you get in the paint you have less resistance making it easier to finish. So this has a lot of potential I just hope EA can get the tuning together b/c if done correctly it can lead to some very fun gameplay.

Obviously this doesn't address AI concerns but its definitely a step in the right direction when it comes to getting rid of the staleness..

[Muzyk23]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Blog: Real Physics

The new controls forced us to look at absolutely everything. Well, controls and the physics and the removal of the two man animations.

But they're all tied together and you couldn't really have one without doing a lot of work on the other three.

If you wanted to do it right that is.

hey reanimator..was it really necessary to invent new controls system? I mean Live 10 had a lot of 'suck in' moments but I believe control was its brightest spot..Now I see I was wrong thinking that what new EA Sports basketball title needed were things like more animations and better quality of them, signature stuff all over the place, getting rid of or fixing some nuances like 'suck in' effect, poor blocking, rebounding, stealing of the ball, poor defensive system, giving wieght to the players.

I'm absolutely not judging the end product or your vision but my point is why focusing on control when other things were really broken.

[loadleft]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Blog: Real Physics

it starts with proper gameplay and controls...

Was I not talking about gameplay? I really thought I was!

Again I will leave space for judgement because all aspects of the game have not been explained. I am really just throwing out these concerns hoping the devs will note them!

[Nokstar]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Blog: Real Physics

hey reanimator..was it really necessary to invent new controls system? I mean Live 10 had a lot of 'suck in' moments but I believe control was its brightest spot..Now I see I was wrong thinking that what new EA Sports basketball title needed were things like more animations and better quality of them, signature stuff all over the place, getting rid of or fixing some nuances like 'suck in' effect, poor blocking, rebounding, stealing of the ball, poor defensive system, giving wieght to the players.

I'm absolutely not judging the end product or your vision but my point is why focusing on control when other things were really broken.

You do know some of those animations caused that suck inneffect right? Its not some invisible vacuum that sucks you in its the actual extra animations that are not needed. Now i understand you want more animations but u seem to not really understand why a new control system was needed. It IS needed to get rid of those suck in animations...if you keep them then please tell me how you would go about fixin the problem besides just saying "get rid of the suck on effect" ...u cant get rid of the suck in effect without losing some of those animations.

[Pokes404]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Blog: Real Physics

hey reanimator..was it really necessary to invent new controls system? I mean Live 10 had a lot of 'suck in' moments but I believe control was its brightest spot..Now I see I was wrong thinking that what new EA Sports basketball title needed were things like more animations and better quality of them, signature stuff all over the place, getting rid of or fixing some nuances like 'suck in' effect, poor blocking, rebounding, stealing of the ball, poor defensive system, giving wieght to the players.

I'm absolutely not judging the end product or your vision but my point is why focusing on control when other things were really broken.

I think they had to redo the controls because they were taking out two-man animations and adding real-time physics. I'm not a programer or anything, but I don't see how last year's controls would have worked in this year's game. Last year, when you pulled a crossover, there were two things that could happen, either you trigged the "beat" animation and went around the defender or you trigged the "stopped" animation where the defender would bump you and stay in front of you. But since these animations are being taken out in favor of something more dynamic, my guess is that there had to be changes to the controls, as well.

I'm all for it if it works as well as they claim. Once again, for me at least, signature shots/moves are great to have but at the same time they're "fluff." It doesn't have any impact on the actually gameplay. It's just there for show and to look good. I'm fine with having fewer sig shots/moves if it means having great controls, but most importantly, having gameplay that actually simulates real-life basketball (or at least as close as possible in a video game). I'd make that tradeoff in a heartbeat.

[Muzyk23]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Blog: Real Physics

You do know some of those animations caused that suck inneffect right? Its not some invisible vacuum that sucks you in its the actual extra animations that are not needed. Now i understand you want more animations but u seem to not really understand why a new control system was needed. It IS needed to get rid of those suck in animations...if you keep them then please tell me how you would go about fixin the problem besides just saying "get rid of the suck on effect" ...u cant get rid of the suck in effect without losing some of those animations.

I think the question wasn't directed at you. Thanks.

[Muzyk23]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Blog: Real Physics

I think they had to redo the controls because they were taking out two-man animations and adding real-time physics. I'm not a programer or anything, but I don't see how last year's controls would have worked in this year's game. Last year, when you pulled a crossover, there were two things that could happen, either you trigged the "beat" animation and went around the defender or you trigged the "stopped" animation where the defender would bump you and stay in front of you. But since these animations are being taken out in favor of something more dynamic, my guess is that there had to be changes to the controls, as well.

I'm all for it if it works as well as they claim. Once again, for me at least, signature shots/moves are great to have but at the same time they're "fluff." It doesn't have any impact on the actually gameplay. It's just there for show and to look good. I'm fine with having fewer sig shots/moves if it means having great controls, but most importantly, having gameplay that actually simulates real-life basketball (or at least as close as possible in a video game). I'd make that tradeoff in a heartbeat.

Good points. I'm asking to know if leaving last year's control, adding real time physics, retooling control to fit it all and finally removing off animations wasn't enough INSTEAD of inventing new control system. Inventing new control system could've taken away from production time. That production time could have been used to focus on some glarring issues the series has had. Looking forward to the DEVS answer.

I understand that last year's controls maybe weren't fitted to real-time physics and that forced the change. It would mean the main priority were real time physics, not control. Correct me if I'm wroong Dev. Thanks

[Tha_Kid]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Blog: Real Physics

That production time could have been used to focus on some glarring issues the series has had.

I'm assuming you're referring to

getting rid of or fixing some nuances like 'suck in' effect, poor blocking, rebounding, stealing of the ball, poor defensive system, giving wieght to the players.

I'm absolutely not judging the end product or your vision but my point is why focusing on control when other things were really broken.

I think you're not seeing the forest for the trees. The Physics system is being used for the blocking & stealing of the ball , playing defense, factoring in weight & strength of players, blocking shots, and rebounding. Just reading how the passing used to work lets you understand why stealing was so broken. The physics system was the solution to the glaring problems the last game had. The controls are there to take advantage of these new systems.

Since you seem to want a dev answer, this might not change your opinion, so the best I can do is point to the Elite 11 interview from June:

It is important to note that this is not a remapping of the controls. This is a new system with one-to-one control of the ball. The ANT technology that we use gives us the ability to separate the upper and lower body, to blend all animations, and to use real-time physics for player contact at the same time

I'm sure we've all read the interview before, but it doesn't hurt to look over it again as it might still be the most substantial piece on the game.

http://www.gamespot.com/ps3/sports/nbalive11/news.html?sid=6264429&mode=previews

I agree with 23 that signature animations are important for differentiating players. That said, I am intrigued to see how the physics in this game differentiate players on a more base level. Still, there is no way EA could expect to not have a backlash for standing put in this area, when they were already so far behind the competition, and really, behind in general. 2K notwithstanding, LIVE 10 was a disappointment in signature style and Elite 11 apparently will be as well. For anyone that played 09, the two years of a decline in this area is hard to accept. "Next year" is "now" in this department. No one should be blamed for not giving EA rope in this area.

I've agreed before with loadleft's ideals as far as the focus of a basketball game, and I expect EA to touch on those down the line. I think alot of this stuff will be moot in a month or so when they do. All the talk is about physics because that is the main cause of change and control because that is the biggest adjustment. Another clip from the June interview:

Anything can happen/emergent gameplay--Real-time physics and hands-on controls are two new innovations, but that is not even close to what else is new. We have over 200 gameplay improvements, including a ball that is almost always considered "loose."
...

One thing I want people to understand is that we are building off of the great work that was in NBA Live 10. Most everything people liked about the game is still there. We are not starting from scratch. You will still be able to do set plays, screens, and pick and rolls (all with real physics and not canned scenarios). We are improving on what people liked. I haven't even touched on the new REAL-AI system (originally in NHL and Fight Night), where producers can play the game, and the AI will be able to use the best, most successful moves/shots that we have done right back against us. It is like playing against a human. You will hear and see much more about it over the coming months.

My biggest worry about NBA Elite is basketball strategy, the nuances of the game. So far, NBA Elite has had alot of talk about individual aspects of ball, but nothing on how it all comes together to form the team game. I hope Elite has implemented what i'm looking for in that area. It sounds like it stands a chance to play the best basketball, but will it play the best NBA ball? Time will tell.

Nokstar, no offense, but you're saying things that are not cut & dry true at all, and rubbing people the wrong way in the process. You've taken what rEAnimator has said and extrapolated it in a way that isn't true. How are more animations bad? As has been pointed out, technically speaking, there are more animations in Elite than in any previous version of LIVE, though the differences will be in many cases adaptations to the physics (my understanding of it, anyway.)

[oOausarOo]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Blog: Real Physics

Can't wait for the demo, as usual EA can talk a good talk, but I'm hoping they can walk the walk.

[Elite Flite]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Blog: Real Physics

the controls for elite we remapped because it had to give one to one control. not because it had to. they have last years control set but the developers said the experience and range of things possible will shine more with the new control set.

[flyboy703]

yes people say they want more sig playing styles, but its like you arent getting the big picture you can make the players play as sig as you want them to because you control them... They have already stated the sig shots that where there last year will still be in the game along with a few add-ons... If the gameplay is good people will barely even notice some of the sig play is not there. if you can still post some up with kobe fake one way and then fade back the other with smooth transition and control you will love the game

[Pokes404]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Blog: Real Physics

Good points. I'm asking to know if leaving last year's control, adding real time physics, retooling control to fit it all and finally removing off animations wasn't enough INSTEAD of inventing new control system. Inventing new control system could've taken away from production time. That production time could have been used to focus on some glarring issues the series has had. Looking forward to the DEVS answer.

I understand that last year's controls maybe weren't fitted to real-time physics and that forced the change. It would mean the main priority were real time physics, not control. Correct me if I'm wroong Dev. Thanks

That's the thing. I think real-time physics WAS the emphasis going in this year, and because of this change, it required the controls to be changed, as well. Sorry, I don't think I explained myself well enough on this point.

I don't think they went in with the idea of completely overhauling the controls. As you've said, and I agree, there were much bigger problems with the gameplay than the controls (which were actually pretty solid to me). I think the #1 item on their list of priorities was implementing real-time physics (which meant taking out two-man animations) which forced them to change the controls to work with the new engine. Of course, this is all just speculation on my part.

I'm not sure I've ever looked forward to a demo more than this one. I was very excited about playing the Backbreaker demo, but my first love has always been basketball. I'm really eager to see if this game can replicate real-life basketball.

[Nokstar]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Blog: Real Physics

I'm assuming you're referring to



I think you're not seeing the forest for the trees. The Physics system is being used for the blocking & stealing of the ball , playing defense, factoring in weight & strength of players, blocking shots, and rebounding. Just reading how the passing used to work lets you understand why stealing was so broken. The physics system was the solution to the glaring problems the last game had. The controls are there to take advantage of these new systems.

Since you seem to want a dev answer, this might not change your opinion, so the best I can do is point to the Elite 11 interview from June:



I'm sure we've all read the interview before, but it doesn't hurt to look over it again as it might still be the most substantial piece on the game.

http://www.gamespot.com/ps3/sports/nbalive11/news.html?sid=6264429&mode=previews

I agree with 23 that signature animations are important for differentiating players. That said, I am intrigued to see how the physics in this game differentiate players on a more base level. Still, there is no way EA could expect to not have a backlash for standing put in this area, when they were already so far behind the competition, and really, behind in general. 2K notwithstanding, LIVE 10 was a disappointment in signature style and Elite 11 apparently will be as well. For anyone that played 09, the two years of a decline in this area is hard to accept. "Next year" is "now" in this department. No one should be blamed for not giving EA rope in this area.

I've agreed before with loadleft's ideals as far as the focus of a basketball game, and I expect EA to touch on those down the line. I think alot of this stuff will be moot in a month or so when they do. All the talk is about physics because that is the main cause of change and control because that is the biggest adjustment. Another clip from the June interview:



My biggest worry about NBA Elite is basketball strategy, the nuances of the game. So far, NBA Elite has had alot of talk about individual aspects of ball, but nothing on how it all comes together to form the team game. I hope Elite has implemented what i'm looking for in that area. It sounds like it stands a chance to play the best basketball, but will it play the best NBA ball? Time will tell.

Nokstar, no offense, but you're saying things that are not cut & dry true at all, and rubbing people the wrong way in the process. You've taken what rEAnimator has said and extrapolated it in a way that isn't true. How are more animations bad? As has been pointed out, technically speaking, there are more animations in Elite than in any previous version of LIVE, though the differences will be in many cases adaptations to the physics (my understanding of it, anyway.)

and i think you're taking what i said the wrong way. I didnt say more animations were bad...the developers havnt even said they were taking anything away other than two-man animations. What IM sayin is...the guy i was going back and forth with is making it seem like you can just "take away" the suction feeling you get in the game without taking away those animations. I think the more of those animations that cause this, the worst. I know he said he's worried about sig animations...but they havnt said they were taking them away...nor have they said they werent adding any new animations at all....so i just dont get the guys angle really.

If im rubbing people the wrong way that that is just them being emotional about something that is not worth getting emotional about. I am definately taking what reanimator and other developer are saying and taking it for what its worth...because thats who is in control of how the game is going to be. I dont know everything about the game obviously...nobody does beyond the developers...all im doing is forming my opinion and discussing it...this is a forum that is what im supposed to do if im here at all.

None of this should be rubbing anybody the wrong way...that is just silly..we're talking about a videogame lol.