Out of Bounds: The Billion Dollar Elephant in the Room

[Other Guy]

Re: Out of Bounds: The Billion Dollar Elephant in the Room

The Elephant in the room is that Madden's lead designers and developers have one goal in mind and EA's directors/etc. have another. I have met Ian and Phil and others in person, shaken their hands, talked Madden and Football with them. They are either underpaid actors [actors make millions,] or they really want to make a great sim football game.

Nailed it! I firmly believe that the blame for Madden's lack of progression lies with the suits in EA's corporate offices, not the hard working designers/programmers in the development studio.

[spankdatazz22]

Re: Out of Bounds: The Billion Dollar Elephant in the Room

I have a hard time blaming the EA "suits". Pretty much every EA sports title struggled when they went next gen. Fight Night may have been the most impressive, but it had a ton of problems/lack of depth. Imo it's really less about Madden versus "other football games" as you can measure Madden (and imo NCAA's) progression against other EA sports titles.

I'm no expert, but I'd say most of their core titles managed to improve dramatically next gen after stumbling initially. I don't see people fondly looking back on the last gen years of NHL, FIFA, Fight Night, NBA Live, etc. NBA Live in particular has struggled much this generation, including having truly horrific outings a few years. But they've pushed the envelope. The work that team did with Synergy prompted 2K to take tendencies in their game to the next level the following year. Much of the movement/footplanting in Live is what many would like to see in NBA2K. While NBA2K legimately established itself as the dominant title, no one can deny NBA Live has contributed to how basketball gaming has evolved.

That really can't be said for Madden or NCAA. The much hailed "locomotion" is an innovation from another EA game - and really meant to address Tiburon's own mistakes in making player movement overly twitchy when they went next gen. They actually had a system of momentum/movement in place last generation - the game just lacked the player interaction and presentation elements other games were bringing to the table at the time. But in looking back at the past six years, what has Tiburon truly innovated with? What have they done to push football gaming forward? I honestly can't think of anything. Madden and NCAA have been so bad this gen that they seem to get credit simply when they're competent efforts. Even with NCAA being "great" this year, I don't see where it's evolved much beyond it's last gen counterpart. I think a lot of people are just happy it's a very competent effort for a change. I think that's why there's a wide disparity in what gamers expect from Madden/NCAA. Some people remember how truly bad the titles were and appreciate them for getting back to any level of respectibility.

I mean c'mon - with all the issues all of us KNOW Madden has on default, you have sites like OS rating the game a 9? Exceptional? Even with everything it's still missing relative to older games, let alone bringing something new to the table? If a game like MLB the Show had guys routinely smacking 80+ homers a year or making gravity-defying grabs, the game would get dogged. The standards for Madden and NCAA are so much lower than they are for pretty much every other sports title out there. And it's a shame, given these are the only choices for a NFL or NCAA football game

[jerry161]

Re: Out of Bounds: The Billion Dollar Elephant in the Room

I for one find this thread very disturbing. For a site supposed to be about hard core sports fan gamers I find it very disappointing that all you guys seem to want to talk about is the lack of game modes or changes. I as a sports fan want them to work on the fundamentals of the game to get back to what the game of football is actually like and get away from all these gimmicks and video game footballl modes. Personally you can keep your new crap like vision cones and superstar mode. Please get the fundamentals of the game on the field fixed!!! The national media has also geared itself toward complaining about missing features. Give me a break! This Madden has made more progress than any next gen Madden!

You game dorks that are upset because the mode where you live out your fantasy where you are actually good at sports need to get a life. I for one will be very disappointed if the Madden team goes back to putting in a new mode each year that does nothing to help the core game.

This Madden is far from perfect but I am very glad they decided to work on the tackling animation and blocking systems and AI and hope they continue to do so in future Maddens rather than adding stupid features like being able to price my hot dogs. The graphics for bad weather could be stepped up quite a bit too. I loved the Muddy fields in Madden 09.

[2krunk4u]

Re: Out of Bounds: The Billion Dollar Elephant in the Room

EA in general does not consistently build on its titles.

Other companies do a much better job at evolving their game over and over each year to where you don't feel like you are playing the same game.

Everytime I play Madden all the games feel the same. Which could be because they haven't quite changed much of the core functionality. The demo with "speed" play basically increased that feeling.

The praise I give to sports video games is if I feel I am trying to win a game of that sport, or if I am trying to win a video game. When a company can make me forget about the latter and immerse me in the sport, those are the games I continue to play.

Madden and NCAA are not those games, and haven't been for most of their existence.

post of the decade.

[GiantBlue76]

Re: Out of Bounds: The Billion Dollar Elephant in the Room

I have a hard time blaming the EA "suits". Pretty much every EA sports title struggled when they went next gen. Fight Night may have been the most impressive, but it had a ton of problems/lack of depth. Imo it's really less about Madden versus "other football games" as you can measure Madden (and imo NCAA's) progression against other EA sports titles.

I'm no expert, but I'd say most of their core titles managed to improve dramatically next gen after stumbling initially. I don't see people fondly looking back on the last gen years of NHL, FIFA, Fight Night, NBA Live, etc. NBA Live in particular has struggled much this generation, including having truly horrific outings a few years. But they've pushed the envelope. The work that team did with Synergy prompted 2K to take tendencies in their game to the next level the following year. Much of the movement/footplanting in Live is what many would like to see in NBA2K. While NBA2K legimately established itself as the dominant title, no one can deny NBA Live has contributed to how basketball gaming has evolved.

That really can't be said for Madden or NCAA. The much hailed "locomotion" is an innovation from another EA game - and really meant to address Tiburon's own mistakes in making player movement overly twitchy when they went next gen. They actually had a system of momentum/movement in place last generation - the game just lacked the player interaction and presentation elements other games were bringing to the table at the time. But in looking back at the past six years, what has Tiburon truly innovated with? What have they done to push football gaming forward? I honestly can't think of anything. Madden and NCAA have been so bad this gen that they seem to get credit simply when they're competent efforts. Even with NCAA being "great" this year, I don't see where it's evolved much beyond it's last gen counterpart. I think a lot of people are just happy it's a very competent effort for a change. I think that's why there's a wide disparity in what gamers expect from Madden/NCAA. Some people remember how truly bad the titles were and appreciate them for getting back to any level of respectibility.

I mean c'mon - with all the issues all of us KNOW Madden has on default, you have sites like OS rating the game a 9? Exceptional? Even with everything it's still missing relative to older games, let alone bringing something new to the table? If a game like MLB the Show had guys routinely smacking 80+ homers a year or making gravity-defying grabs, the game would get dogged. The standards for Madden and NCAA are so much lower than they are for pretty much every other sports title out there. And it's a shame, given these are the only choices for a NFL or NCAA football game

Easily one of the best and most accurate posts I've seen this year.

[PGaither84]

Re: Out of Bounds: The Billion Dollar Elephant in the Room

Again after seeing what they did in one year of NCAA, Ian and whoever else they bring in for Madden has no excuse at all for the state of the product.

I was pretty much with you until you said that. A TON of what makes NCAA 11 great is really what the madden team did last year + locomotion and more tuning. I still enjoy NCAA more this year, but mostly because the dynasty mode is so much fun and the game run smoother overall. If it weren't for Ian and others, NCAA 11 wouldn't be what it is today. I thought that was pretty obvious, I guess not.

[Vikes1]

Re: Out of Bounds: The Billion Dollar Elephant in the Room

I have a hard time blaming the EA "suits".

Very solid post in it's entirety Spank. But I'll just focus on the above statement. And I agree with you.

Of course I know nothing of the inner workings of the Tiburon studio. But I just have a difficult time believing the "Suits" give two damns about what development decisions are made back on the shop floor. As they say...the crap rolls down hill, and imo anyway...I highly doubt the big sticks at EA could care less about "Gameflow" or "Vision cone". That's someone else's concern. The big dogs concern is about one thing...profit. And I'm pretty sure they really don't care what new features are added that may help fill the investors portfolios, and save their jobs.

I just can't imagine two executives having their $200 lunch, talking about how happy they are "Gameflow" was added this year.

[PGaither84]

Re: Out of Bounds: The Billion Dollar Elephant in the Room

Very solid post in it's entirety Spank. But I'll just focus on the above statement. And I agree with you.

Of course I know nothing of the inner workings of the Tiburon studio. But I just have a difficult time believing the "Suits" give two damns about what development decisions are made back on the shop floor. As they say...the crap rolls down hill, and imo anyway...I highly doubt the big sticks at EA could care less about "Gameflow" or "Vision cone". That's someone else's concern. The big dogs concern is about one thing...profit. And I'm pretty sure they really don't care what new features are added that may help fill the investors portfolios, and save their jobs.

I just can't imagine two executives having their $200 lunch, talking about how happy they are "Gameflow" was added this year.

And I am sure that when they have their board meetings they don't ask what the new big back of the box features are, and how they are coming along, and how the Community Day people thought of it and what the telemetry data from the demo was or anything like that.

I am also sure that when Ian or whom ever has to make Madden 12, that they didn't give the directors/suits a priorities list of what they are planning on doing all year. That and other things likely don't happen either.

[Vikes1]

Re: Out of Bounds: The Billion Dollar Elephant in the Room

And I am sure that when they have their board meetings they don't ask what the new big back of the box features are, and how they are coming along, and how the Community Day people thought of it and what the telemetry data from the demo was or anything like that.

I am also sure that when Ian or whom ever has to make Madden 12, that they didn't give the directors/suits a priorities list of what they are planning on doing all year. That and other things likely don't happen either.

Well PG, it seems as though we have a difference of opinion on this.

With you having been at the studio, maybe you have a much clearer view of whats what than I do. But again...I just have a tough time believing the executives are really involved with much of the design decisions. And for those that are unhappy about the direction of the game, I'm just not too sure the blame [if any] falls into the laps of the higher ups. JMO.

[Other Guy]

Re: Out of Bounds: The Billion Dollar Elephant in the Room

Well PG, it seems as though we have a difference of opinion on this.

With you having been at the studio, maybe you have a much clearer view of whats what than I do. But again...I just have a tough time believing the executives are really involved with much of the design decisions. And for those that are unhappy about the direction of the game, I'm just not too sure the blame [if any] falls into the laps of the higher ups. JMO.

I agree with you in this regard, and I think it backs up my point. EA's executives don’t have the slightest concern about specific game features. IMO, they are only worried about one thing, the bottom line.

I'd say the execs have two main concerns with Madden. Release on time, and stay under budget. The bottom line. This is what I mean when I say that the corporate office has done as much as anyone to impede the game's progression. They simply don't have any desire or interest in making the game better. They probably don't even care if the game is any good or not. So long as it's good enough that the sales meet their projections.

I don't want to go too deep into this. I just think to improve Madden to where we'd all like to see it would cost some money. And I don't think the people who make the financial decisions are willing to spend it, for many, many reasons.

[roadman]

Re: Out of Bounds: The Billion Dollar Elephant in the Room

Very solid post in it's entirety Spank. But I'll just focus on the above statement. And I agree with you.

Of course I know nothing of the inner workings of the Tiburon studio. But I just have a difficult time believing the "Suits" give two damns about what development decisions are made back on the shop floor. As they say...the crap rolls down hill, and imo anyway...I highly doubt the big sticks at EA could care less about "Gameflow" or "Vision cone". That's someone else's concern. The big dogs concern is about one thing...profit. And I'm pretty sure they really don't care what new features are added that may help fill the investors portfolios, and save their jobs.

I just can't imagine two executives having their $200 lunch, talking about how happy they are "Gameflow" was added this year.

Sorry Vikes, I need to respectfully disagree on this one and that means I don't agree with Spank, either.

Since Peter Moore arrived, he's talked about making the game more accessible to the general population and also has talked about DLC and sticking it to the consumer.

Maddens sales have been lagging for the past several years and EA stock price is real low at 16. They also laid off hundreds of people late last year.

I think Peter Moore is very much involved, along with marketing, on the decision making at Tibouran.

I don't know the inner workings, either, but the facts above are hard to deny.

[joec63]

Re: Out of Bounds: The Billion Dollar Elephant in the Room

Sorry Vikes, I need to respectfully disagree on this one and that means I don't agree with Spank, either.

Since Peter Moore arrived, he's talked about making the game more accessible to the general population and also has talked about DLC and sticking it to the consumer.

Maddens sales have been lagging for the past several years and EA stock price is real low at 16. They also laid off hundreds of people late last year.

I think Peter Moore is very much involved, along with marketing, on the decision making at Tibouran.

I don't know the inner workings, either, but the facts above are hard to deny.

I could name a bunch of companies with a low stock price. I don't think it necessarily correlates to EA's stock price with Madden sales in this economy. New IP is what drives stock price which I don't see much coming from EA. While there have been some hits like Red Dead Redemption the market has been flat. Especially for games with yearly releases.

Edit:

Many analysts predicting another steep decline in July US game industry sales got a pleasant surprise today, when NPD reported that revenues were virtually flat year-over-year. For the period running from July 4 to July 31, combined US sales of non-PC game software, hardware, and accessories sank just 1 percent to $846.5 million.


Meanwhile, software sales were down 8 percent to $403.3 million for July. NPD's top 10 was dominated by Electronic Arts' NCAA Football 11, which took first place on the 360 with 368,000 units and second on the PS3 with 298,800 units. The 360-exclusive Crackdown 2 came in third with 208,800 units, followed by returning Wii favorite Super Mario Galaxy 2 with 193,000 units. Rounding out the top five was Lego Harry Potter: Years 1-4 with 141,700 units.

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6273307.html?tag=latestheadlines%3Btitle%3B3

[mauro78]

Re: Out of Bounds: The Billion Dollar Elephant in the Room

So the big question is coming next: can a possibly loss in sales + global crysis (employee layoff) + lawsuits bring to EA lost or not renew of the NFL license?

p.s
I'm not and EA ***** just like competition

[joec63]

Re: Out of Bounds: The Billion Dollar Elephant in the Room

So the big question is coming next: can a possibly loss in sales + global crysis (employee layoff) + lawsuits bring to EA lost or not renew of the NFL license?

p.s
I'm not and EA ***** just like competition

I think we as customers would be better off for it also, plus I usually bought both anyway. A win/win for both companies. It will come down to money as always, if the NFL believes they can make more with multiple licenses then they will do it. That hasn't been the case so far as they extended to 2013. Especially with EA guarenteeing millions upfront. The NFL wasn't thrilled with 2K selling their game for $20 as it undercut their brand.

[mauro78]

Re: Out of Bounds: The Billion Dollar Elephant in the Room

Especially with EA guarenteeing millions upfront. The NFL wasn't thrilled with 2K selling their game for $20 as it undercut their brand.

yeah...IMHO a worst Marketing decison :-(