Weak Madden Sales Signaling Trouble for Game Industry

[roadman]

Re: Weak Madden Sales Signaling Trouble for Game Industry

I'm going to copy and paste a post that Adembroski posted a few days ago that I think everyone should take a good look at.

This is what Rgiles has been trying to say.

I want to look at the timeline here for a moment, because it's relevant.

2005 is generally considered by many to be the peak of Madden football. In that year, Ian Cummings and Phil Frazier were both designers, as they continued to be going forward. However, they were not decision makers.

In the leadup to Madden 2006, a "gameplay document" became available to MaddenMania members. It included a series of updates and fixes that were going into Madden 06. It was an honest attempt to reach out. However, the communication ceased as quickly and unexpectedly as it began. It was later revealed that it was Ian Cummings that was attempting to communicate with the sim community.

In 2006 or 2007, I'm not sure, David Ortiz became executive producer of Madden. The direction of Madden around this time went directly toward the tournament player. This was an open, conscious decision on the part of the Madden team. Phil Frazier and Ian Cummings were still designers, as was Ryan Burnsides (who I know was very unhappy with this approach).

In in the months leading up to the release of Madden NFL 2009, David Ortiz departed EA under mysterious circumstances. "Personal reasons" were sited, but rumors existed that there was some disagreements with management or other members of the team.

Madden NFL 09 was a David Ortiz effort. Madden NFL 10 was the first game that Ian and Phil were leaders on. In the time since they have taken over, we have seen the following changes to the "engine"...

* Game speed slowed to realistic levels and the ability to fine tune the game speed
* Slower, more realistic route running
* Locomotion, shifting the emphasis from twitch gaming to using blocks and setting up moves
* The most realistic run blocking system in football game history, by a long ways
* Increased presentation elements, including cut scenes and team specific storylines
* A working fatigue model, perhaps for the first time in a Madden game
* Pro tak, for better or worse, the first gang tackling system AT ALL since last gen
* An elimination of many over-the-top arcady animations, replaced by more down to Earth, realistic animations


Now, not all of these things were done well, but if you can't see the obvious change in direction, you're blind or ignoring it on purpose. A lot of people praise NHL and FIFA and ask "why can't Madden be like that?", forgetting entirely that it took 3 years for both of those games to get to that point... once the decision was made to make them sim. M11 is the 2nd Madden since that decision was made.

If you want a real test of Madden's progress, compare it to NHL 2008 and FIFA 07. Year 2 of the renovation. Look at NHL 09 and FIFA 08 to see where Madden 12 should be.

[rooney8]

Re: Weak Madden Sales Signaling Trouble for Game Industry

Keep in mind that there were about twice as many ps2s and xboxes in 2005 than there are 360s and ps3s in 2010. They are capturing roughly the same percentage of gamers in 2010 as they did in 2005. I did the math in another thread we had about this, and I can dig it up if you'd like the raw numbers.

I know the numbers but they can be misleading. 140m+ Ps2 sold but I was on my second and I know people who were on their 3rd. Not saying this gen has caught last gen but the gap isn't as big as the numbers say. Fifa sold 4.5m on Ps2 and xbox in 2005 and 6m in 2010 yet it still is battling it's competition.

[mrprice33]

I know the numbers but they can be misleading. 140m+ Ps2 sold but I was on my second and I know people who were on their 3rd. Not saying this gen has caught last gen but the gap isn't as big as the numbers say. Fifa sold 4.5m on Ps2 and xbox in 2005 and 6m in 2010 yet it still is battling it's competition.

Couldn't you say the same thing about 360s? I've purchased 4 of them myself.

As to fifa i think it's safe to say that the explosion in popularity of soccer, particularly in the us has contributed to the continued increase in sales.



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[TheWatcher]

Re: Weak Madden Sales Signaling Trouble for Game Industry

Slow start shows a loss in hardcore fans.

It's not quite that simple. It's impossible to make that statement definitively for one group especially this early without seeing the numbers broken down categorically (i.e. defined targets). The quarterly and final will speak more to that than the one-week statistic.

If casuals really do like this game they should recover. I still think less than 4m on 360 and Ps3.

I'd be shocked if it did less than 4 million, but if that does happen heads will roll over there and you'll probably see some faces disappear, it's just a fact of life in business. But the slump with 10 early was much bigger than the hole they're in now with 11, and they pulled out all the stops promotionally to get it back up. When it was all said and done, Madden 10 outsold Madden 09, I can see that happening again.

The only thing relevant are the 3 year totals taken as a whole, because it shows that the overall interest be it hardcore or casual for this game is declining each year and they're needing emergency marketing efforts to get sales back on track (this is something they've actually stated themselves). I feel a big problem is that Tiburon's answer to it in the game isn't working... well, we can all see it's not working. At some point, extended marketing efforts may stop working to save it. For their sake, it better not be this year after what happened last season to reset the course. The powers-that-be are running out of patience based on their public releases in regards to how the sales have been shaping up and how they've had to regain ground.

[kjcheezhead]

Re: Weak Madden Sales Signaling Trouble for Game Industry

So because the most realistic elements of this game are offensive, that lessens their import in determining whether or not it's a realistic, hardcore game? Where's the line of demarcation? Is it only 3-4 defense, or is the line somewhere else?

It seems to me that the line keeps moving. Run blocking and lineplay used to be a huge sore spot for people and what allegedly held the game back from being as realistic as possible. Now that the run blocking is near perfect and the pass blocking much improved, the target is suddenly the defense. What happens when the 3-4 operates properly? Are we going to move to the kicking game next? And what about after that?

I don't see how an honest person could look at the game in 2007-08 and 2010-11 and not say that 10 and 11 show a clear change in priorities from the arcadey tournament player to the much more realistic, simulation game. If you don't like where the series is headed on the field, I'm not sure what to say to you. Certainly the elements that surround the on-field experience need to be improved (I'm not sure that anyone is disputing that) but on the field this is the best simulation Madden of the series by a wide margin, especially after slider adjustments.

I know not everyone will agree, but Madden 11 on the field play moved sideways imo. Run blocking, sideline catching improved no doubt. However pro-tak wasn't touched, broken tackles are much easier even for Darren Sproles types, Locomotion plays to the offenses advantage as well. A step forward for the offense, 2 steps back for the defense. Improving the play on one side of the field and not the other doesn't translate into sim improvements at all.

I didn't even mention how strategy pad slows defensive adjustments down or that ps2 madden had wr shading and individual bump and run that gave the defense some adjustments this game lacks.

I agree Madden 10 moved in the right direction, but Madden 11 took a wrong turn sometime after Ian and co. left the boards.

[mrprice33]

It's not quite that simple. It's impossible to make that statement definitively for one group especially this early without seeing the numbers broken down categorically (i.e. defined targets). The quarterly and final will speak more to that than the one-week statistic.



I'd be shocked if it did less than 4 million, but if that does happen heads will roll over there and you'll probably see some faces disappear, it's just a fact of life in business. But the slump with 10 early was much bigger than the hole they're in now with 11, and they pulled out all the stops promotionally to get it back up. When it was all said and done, Madden 10 outsold Madden 09, I can see that happening again.

The only thing relevant are the 3 year totals taken as a whole, because it shows that the overall interest be it hardcore or casual for this game is declining each year and they're needing emergency marketing efforts to get sales back on track (this is something they've actually stated themselves). I feel a big problem is that Tiburon's answer to it in the game isn't working... well, we can all see it's not working. At some point, extended marketing efforts may stop working to save it. For their sake, it better not be this year after what happened last season to reset the course. The powers-that-be are running out of patience based on their public releases in regards to how the sales have been shaping up and how they've had to regain ground.

I just hope they don't make the mistake of thinking the popularity of 2008/2009 is an indicator that they should go back to that style of game.



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[REDRZA]

Re: Weak Madden Sales Signaling Trouble for Game Industry

I agree with your sentiments above. But that doesn't change the character of what Madden is. I'll be surprised if it ever becomes a full blown hardcore game.

Honestly, though I haven't spent much time with NHL, I wouldn't say it's an inaccessible hardcore game. It can be picked up and played. A few years ago, they apparently did what Madden is starting to do now: become more realistic, add a more simplistic control scheme, etc. I think NHL has set the precedent for what Madden will become (or at least attempt to become).

I've said the same things as you as far as the those failed casual-oriented sports games. But I think of Madden as a game that will always try to hit it in the middle.

I agree with alot of what you say about NHL. The fact that you can indeed "pick up and play" has no bearing on how great that game really is though. That's my point about making Madden over the top arcadish (too many broken tackles, poor pass coverage, high scoring, defensive assist, gameflow aka ask madden), theres really no need to "streamline" aka dumb down the game for casuals. Just make a better quality game, as authentic as possible to the NFL, and it will sell.

BTW, NHL's dual stick control wasn't to "streamline" game play, it is actually innovate in that the left stick is skating and the right stick is the hockey stick. So many different maneuvers and actually aiming and shooting is much more realistic this way, and after playing NHL that way, i could never go back to buttons.

[Kudzilla]

Re: Weak Madden Sales Signaling Trouble for Game Industry

WhooaH!! didnt see that coming.. Nah I'm just playin I saw it coming.. Maybe EA (Sports) will get the message and work harder on their "flagship franchise." I think NHL might be their best game now..

Fifa is the best game EA Sports has ever come up with.

[EmmittSmithx22x]

Re: Weak Madden Sales Signaling Trouble for Game Industry

What they are doing...is obviously driving away fans of the game. Since they continue ewant to cater to people who don't play football games. They get people like us who play the game every year.

I boycotted Madden 08. and came close to boycotting this year. But if the game refuses to improve in ways that we have asked like they did this year. I will not buy Madden 12.

[REDRZA]

Re: Weak Madden Sales Signaling Trouble for Game Industry

So because the most realistic elements of this game are offensive, that lessens their import in determining whether or not it's a realistic, hardcore game? Where's the line of demarcation? Is it only 3-4 defense, or is the line somewhere else?

It seems to me that the line keeps moving. Run blocking and lineplay used to be a huge sore spot for people and what allegedly held the game back from being as realistic as possible. Now that the run blocking is near perfect and the pass blocking much improved, the target is suddenly the defense. What happens when the 3-4 operates properly? Are we going to move to the kicking game next? And what about after that?

I don't see how an honest person could look at the game in 2007-08 and 2010-11 and not say that 10 and 11 show a clear change in priorities from the arcadey tournament player to the much more realistic, simulation game. If you don't like where the series is headed on the field, I'm not sure what to say to you. Certainly the elements that surround the on-field experience need to be improved (I'm not sure that anyone is disputing that) but on the field this is the best simulation Madden of the series by a wide margin, especially after slider adjustments.

If you read LBz's post about "everything has a complement" you would know what most of us are talking about. Yes, we all wanted better run blocking. So Tiburon gets run blocking right but as par usual, it's a bit overdone and there is no balance. That's why i always said about Tiburon and Madden, be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.

Also, it's very short sighted to lump all tournament players as "arcadey". Don't go by what you have heard or seen on TV, that is NOT all tournament players.

Lastly, "sliders" are A) a cop out by developers who can't balance gameplay on their own and B) are useless to people who play online and in online leagues/franchises.

[mrprice33]

If you read LBz's post about "everything has a complement" you would know what most of us are talking about. Yes, we all wanted better run blocking. So Tiburon gets run blocking right but as par usual, it's a bit overdone and there is no balance. That's why i always said about Tiburon and Madden, be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.

Also, it's very short sighted to lump all tournament players as "arcadey". Don't go by what you have heard or seen on TV, that is NOT all tournament players.

Lastly, "sliders" are A) a cop out by developers who can't balance gameplay on their own and B) are useless to people who play online and in online leagues/franchises.

Another anti-slider guy. Wtf is going on here?

As to tournament players being arcadey, I've been in tournaments; I know how those games are played. I've played online, I know how those games are played. Those gamers were being catered to in 07,08,09 and those were both the best selling and least sim games in the series. This is pretty much universally agreed upon.

And yes, I read lbz's post. You can't just up and expect these things to be perfect in a little over 2 years. Blocking was a priority, and it was fixed. The team acknowledges that there are still things that need to be done, but the point of the game going a more realistic route since 07/08/09 is pretty much inarguable, or so I thought.


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[metallicatz]

Re: Weak Madden Sales Signaling Trouble for Game Industry

Sliders are not a "cop out". Go ask 100 random people about makes a "sim" football video game experience for them and you'll likely get 100 different answers. Sliders are there to let you adjust the game how YOU like it. For all the positive feedback the NHL series gets, it is extremely rare to find avid players who are not using a slider set. Also, it is just as in need of work in the franchise mode department as Madden is. And the NHl series is NOT "pick up and play". It has a significant learning curve.

[mrprice33]

Sliders are not a "cop out". Go ask 100 random people about makes a "sim" football video game experience for them and you'll likely get 100 different answers. Sliders are there to let you adjust the game how YOU like it. For all the positive feedback the NHL series gets, it is extremely rare to find avid players who are not using a slider set. Also, it is just as in need of work in the franchise mode department as Madden is. And the NHl series is NOT "pick up and play". It has a significant learning curve.

Lies. Every other videogame past or present has been perfect right out of the box without sliders, patches, or house rules. Those are madden-specific problems.



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[hotsizz1e03]

for all you guys stating its the economy.. thats bull.. MAdden is straight trash since they came on the next gen platforms.. every year it got worse.. Madden dug its own grave.. Hardowork pays off, slacking produces no results.. Madden is feelin the wrath of the consumers.. Corporate greed is what got the whole world right now crippled.. from gaming, to music, to false advertisements.. Do corporates think us consumers are dumb?? Blinded intentionally, but not dumb.. we know when we are gettin played. We know when a game is full of it. Dont blame the economy. Economy has nothing to do with it.. ITs the worldwide corporate greed that got consumers opening there eyes.. so we scrutinize the game much more deeply and weigh the value of our money and see if madden is worth 60 buck.. not even 50.. IMO.. they should start from scratch. sell the game for 25+plus tax.. take your loss EA, and win our hearts over next year! Nuff said! peace

[mrprice33]

Do the ign boards hotlink here or something?

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