Weak Madden Sales Signaling Trouble for Game Industry

[dxhowe2k]

I don't think EA will do anything differently. Ian asked them for a new engine when he first started and he was declined. As long as they can put in less money and get a ton out they won't make the game any better.

I never knew Ian asked for that. They'll listen now I hope.

[REDRZA]

Re: Weak Madden Sales Signaling Trouble for Game Industry

Another anti-slider guy. Wtf is going on here?

As to tournament players being arcadey, I've been in tournaments; I know how those games are played. I've played online, I know how those games are played. Those gamers were being catered to in 07,08,09 and those were both the best selling and least sim games in the series. This is pretty much universally agreed upon.

And yes, I read lbz's post. You can't just up and expect these things to be perfect in a little over 2 years. Blocking was a priority, and it was fixed. The team acknowledges that there are still things that need to be done, but the point of the game going a more realistic route since 07/08/09 is pretty much inarguable, or so I thought.


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Are you kidding? A little over 2 years? This is the same code they have used for 10 years! This game is NOT "NEW" every year. If they haven't got this game right by now, they never will. Stop giving them excuses. Other developers have done more with lesser hardware years ago. This is getting ridiculous.

Ian and Phil have been with Tiburon for more than 2 years, if you want to continue to believe in "next year", so be it. Many of us were tired of waiting for "next year" 5 years ago.

[REDRZA]

Re: Weak Madden Sales Signaling Trouble for Game Industry

Lies. Every other videogame past or present has been perfect right out of the box without sliders, patches, or house rules. Those are madden-specific problems.



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Yeah, and before consoles that were hooked up to the internet, and before sliders were ever put into games, developers were somehow more responsible for balancing game play without sliders, and were more responsible for quality control before they could patch games.

Stop giving inadequacy built in excuses, its getting old.

[mrprice33]

They've been developing this game on ps3 and 360 for 10 years? That's news to me.

Again, if you don't think this game has made significant leaps forward in realism since the 08/09 incarnations of the game, you're living in a fantasy land and are pretty much not worth debating with.

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[mrprice33]

Yeah, and before consoles that were hooked up to the internet, and before sliders were ever put into games, developers were somehow more responsible for balancing game play without sliders, and were more responsible for quality control before they could patch games.

Stop giving inadequacy built in excuses, its getting old.

Lol at games being balanced properly in the Genesis and ps1 era before sliders and patches. Now I've heard it all.



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[REDRZA]

Re: Weak Madden Sales Signaling Trouble for Game Industry

They've been developing this game on ps3 and 360 for 10 years? That's news to me.

Again, if you don't think this game has made significant leaps forward in realism since the 08/09 incarnations of the game, you're living in a fantasy land and are pretty much not worth debating with.

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No, but they have been using the same code, you know, the stuff that drives the game under the hood? Suction blocking, 2 player scripted animations, DB's not actually covering a WR but instead mirroring the route(in man coverage), nano blitzes etc, etc, etc. All those things were problems on PS2, and hold true today. If you think this game was ever re built ground up, then i don't know what to tell you.

If you call poor pass coverage across the board, over the top broken tackles, high scoring affairs a step toward realism, then you are not worth debating with either.

[REDRZA]

Re: Weak Madden Sales Signaling Trouble for Game Industry

Lol at games being balanced properly in the Genesis and ps1 era before sliders and patches. Now I've heard it all.



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Never said they were perfect, but the developers were far more responsible with balancing and quality control. Now, they can ship the game anyway they want and patch it later. Isn't the internet great? Ship buggy software with no regard, and just patch it a month or two later.

[mrprice33]

No, but they have been using the same code, you know, the stuff that drives the game under the hood? Suction blocking, 2 player scripted animations, DB's not actually covering a WR but instead mirroring the route(in man coverage), nano blitzes etc, etc, etc. All those things were problems on PS2, and hold true today. If you think this game was ever re built ground up, then i don't know what to tell you.

If you call poor pass coverage across the board, over the top broken tackles, high scoring affairs a step toward realism, then you are not worth debating with either.

Let's just go down the list, shall we?

Suction blocking and 2 man animations are a product of using motion captured animations in the game. Many other games deemed superior (nba 2k, for one) also have these problems. Until these games go full physics, which only really became plausible a couple of years ago, these issues will remain. That being said, suction blocking is far more rare in 10/11 than in any other version of the game.

Dbs mirroring routes didn't happen until 09 at the earliest. It was not a problem in the last gen versions of the game.

Nano blitzes are a problem that have plagued pretty much every football game ever made. Offensive line ai is probably one of the most difficult things to program in all of gaming, especially when you give the user the ability to hot route defenders and move guys around to trick the ai.

And using sliders takes care of the issues defensively (the same way they fixed 2k5s awful pass coverage).


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[mrprice33]

Never said they were perfect, but the developers were far more responsible with balancing and quality control. Now, they can ship the game anyway they want and patch it later. Isn't the internet great? Ship buggy software with no regard, and just patch it a month or two later.

Really? Is that why I still remember double flags from madden 97 or hb toss from the first quarterback club or one timers from the nhl series or the behind the back crossover from 2k2 or changing your stance to open and holding up+ left to hit homeruns in triple play gold for Genesis or bo Jackson in tecmo bowl or numerous other broken situations in sports games dating back to basically the atari 2600? Or the game glitches that forced people to mail copies of games back to the publishers in order to get new and corrected software?

Lionizing past generations for their quality and balance of games is laughable.


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[xx19kilosoldier]

Re: Weak Madden Sales Signaling Trouble for Game Industry

Really? Is that why I still remember double flags from madden 97 or hb toss from the first quarterback club or one timers from the nhl series or the behind the back crossover from 2k2 or changing your stance to open and holding up+ left to hit homeruns in triple play gold for Genesis or bo Jackson in tecmo bowl or numerous other broken situations in sports games dating back to basically the atari 2600? Or the game glitches that forced people to mail copies of games back to the publishers in order to get new and corrected software?

Lionizing past generations for their quality and balance of games is laughable.


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Please man. Patching cycles are built into development schedules now. SO yes, he has a point. Developers most def do take advantage of the ability to patch when developing games and most def use the paying community to final test their product while already reaping financial rewards from the product. Spare us all the deep thinker bit as well, for someone who is trying to be such an intellectually honest poster you sure "poo poo" all over others with differing opinions from your own.


Sent from my laptop, while sitting on my couch drinking a beer, and using my fingers.

[mrprice33]

Please man. Patching cycles are built into development schedules now. SO yes, he has a point. Developers most def do take advantage of the ability to patch when developing games and most def use the paying community to final test their product while already reaping financial rewards from the product. Spare us all the deep thinker bit as well, for someone who is trying to be such an intellectually honest poster you sure "poo poo" all over others with differing opinions from your own.


Sent from my laptop, while sitting on my couch drinking a beer, and using my fingers.

It seemed to me his point was that games were better then because they didn't have patches or sliders, while ignoring the fact that users and developers had no recourse to fix any problems that arised (of which there were many). If that was his point it's easily countered, and if not then I wonder why it would be brought up in the first place.

I'm not disputing that patches are a given with just about every game, what I'm disputing is that somehow this is a bad thing. Look at backbreaker for why it's such a great thing for gamers.

And a big hardee har har at attacking a poster for using properly structured sentences with well-reasoned arguments. That's rich.



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[rooney8]

Re: Weak Madden Sales Signaling Trouble for Game Industry

Again, if you don't think this game has made significant leaps forward in realism since the 08/09 incarnations of the game, you're living in a fantasy land and are pretty much not worth debating with.

But 08/09 were so bad that I just can't give credit for improving on them. I was on Ian's and Phil's side at one time because they said everything I wanted to hear but Madden11 just reminds me of 08/09. They didn't add much this year yet still what they did add is poorly implemented. Gameflow/gameplanning needs alot of work, locomotion is good but not what it should be, commentary is the awful and well they did nail run blocking. The code for commentary is terrible so they are going to have to spend alot of time trying to fix and improve that where as if they just got it right this year they could move on to other areas of need. They do this despite being crippled themselves with all the bad code left by Ortiz era.

[mrprice33]

Re: Weak Madden Sales Signaling Trouble for Game Industry

But 08/09 were so bad that I just can't give credit for improving on them. I was on Ian's and Phil's side at one time because they said everything I wanted to hear but Madden11 just reminds me of 08/09. They didn't add much this year yet still what they did add is poorly implemented. Gameflow/gameplanning needs alot of work, locomotion is good but not what it should be, commentary is the awful and well they did nail run blocking. The code for commentary is terrible so they are going to have to spend alot of time trying to fix and improve that where as if they just got it right this year they could move on to other areas of need. They do this despite being crippled themselves with all the bad code left by Ortiz era.

Considering Ian and Phil weren't the primary decision makers for the 08 and 09 games, I'll give them a pass for those, especially considering the rather dramatic shift that the games have taken towards a more realistic, less "gamey" approach. That is not to say that the game is all the way there, because it isn't. However, gameplay wise comparing this game to 08 and 09 is absurd. Yes, the things around the gameplay remain stuck in a last-gen rut (and I've conceded this many times), but on the field the game is better than ever.

[REDRZA]

Re: Weak Madden Sales Signaling Trouble for Game Industry

Let's just go down the list, shall we?

Suction blocking and 2 man animations are a product of using motion captured animations in the game. Many other games deemed superior (nba 2k, for one) also have these problems. Until these games go full physics, which only really became plausible a couple of years ago, these issues will remain. That being said, suction blocking is far more rare in 10/11 than in any other version of the game.

Dbs mirroring routes didn't happen until 09 at the earliest. It was not a problem in the last gen versions of the game.

Nano blitzes are a problem that have plagued pretty much every football game ever made. Offensive line ai is probably one of the most difficult things to program in all of gaming, especially when you give the user the ability to hot route defenders and move guys around to trick the ai.

And using sliders takes care of the issues defensively (the same way they fixed 2k5s awful pass coverage).


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Suction blocking wasn't an issue with 2K football, or NFL Gameday. Games created on lesser hardware. You are preaching to the choir about physics, because Madden has been in dire need of more realistic player interaction. 2 player scripted animations that "play out" are old. You can claim there are "far less" occurances, yet they still remain, same as they did during the PS2 era.

Mirroring routes absolutely existed in PS2 era Madden's, maybey you didn't pay enough attention. I played a guy at a tournament who was considered a very good player. He was up 7-3 at halftime. I ran mostly man cover 2 with bump coverage. In the second half, he absolutley destroyed me while i was running the same defense. I couldn't figure out why his WR was WIDE open in man coverage. He didn't motion or anything. After the game i asked him what he was doing. He was running a sluugo, or an out and up, and even after the WR released from the bump, the DB still ran the slant in, or the out part of the route while the WR was already at LEAST 5 yds up the field.

His exact words were "The DB mirrors the route so the WR gets serious seperation on the double move after the bump".

Nano blitzes were in 2K football, but to a much lesser extent. Madden football back on the PS2 era was where that phrase was coined. Nano blitzing and that term were created on Madden during last gen.

As far as slider and 2K, i was always more of a Madden guy but did play some 2K. I play competitvely ONLY either, only head to head either offline or online. 2K5 played pretty solid without slider adjustments. In Madden they don't apply to me or the hundreds of thousands of players who play online. beating up on the CPU and its weak AI are not my idea of fun.

I been playing Madden faithfully every single last year from 1989. I know this game inside out. This game hasn't changed other than tuning and tweaks, features added/removed, and better graphics. Underneath the fluff, its been the same game year in and year out for quite a while now.

[rangerrick012]

Re: Weak Madden Sales Signaling Trouble for Game Industry

@ price33

Look not everyone thinks Madden is great and NBA 2K sucks, just because you see it that way and others don't doesn't mean you are the only one right and everyone else is wrong. Madden has its flaws as does 2K, but the flaws in Madden are greater to some, than those in 2K. People complain about 2K just as they do w/ Madden, maybe you don't see it as much, but it happens. Just like you say sliders help Madden, they help NBA 2K as well. In any case, I don't think it's right how you continue to take cheap shots at 2K in order to pump up Madden when others don't see it the way you do.

What do you mean by people letting it get away anyways? From what I've seen reviewers still give Madden high scores every year, it still sells more than any other sports game. Of course the community is going to be harsher, but the harshness probably comes from 2 factors that cannot be ignored - 1. Ea's purchase of the license definitely opened up Madden to harsher criticism and backlash. 2K avoids this to a degree b/c people don't like it, they can play Live. Madden is the only yearly NFL game in town. If you think that's not a factor you're naive IMO. 2. Disconnect between the community and the devs. W/ 2k there at least seems to be a concerted effort to listen to the community's needs and try to implement new features. Madden throws in gameplan, gameflow, and strat pad really without the community asking for or demanding these features. This leaves fans jaded and makes people wonder what the direction of the game really is.