Weak Madden Sales Signaling Trouble for Game Industry

[Rules]

Re: Weak Madden Sales Signaling Trouble for Game Industry

It is very simple but EA is not getting the message. You cannot keep rehashing the same game over and over removing great features and replacing them with gimmicks!

Some features that has not been done and would require WORK that they would not be willing to do:

1) Individual sounds, music, commentary for each stadium.
2) Changing weather! Rain to snow, off, on, light to heavy.
3) Better halftime shows that can be turned off for the arcade players.
4) The ability to play defense again which has basically been removed for more offense.
5) New kicking system that is not 100% like it has been for years.

Notice many of these ideas has to do with presentation and atmosphere. EA did very little this year with Madden and you are seeing it reflect in their sales. Why do you think Ian has avoided this forum, cause even he knew it was not going to be pretty.

[REDRZA]

Re: Weak Madden Sales Signaling Trouble for Game Industry

Really? Is that why I still remember double flags from madden 97 or hb toss from the first quarterback club or one timers from the nhl series or the behind the back crossover from 2k2 or changing your stance to open and holding up+ left to hit homeruns in triple play gold for Genesis or bo Jackson in tecmo bowl or numerous other broken situations in sports games dating back to basically the atari 2600? Or the game glitches that forced people to mail copies of games back to the publishers in order to get new and corrected software?

Lionizing past generations for their quality and balance of games is laughable.


Sent from my HTC EVO 4G using Tapatalk.

You are going off on other tangents my friend. Stay focused. I never said ANY game was "perfect", and i was specifically talking about Madden. Let's stop bringing in other games into the debate, it is a Madden forum.

I never lionized Madden on PS2 either, because what im saying is we are basically playing Madden PS2 right now, with better graphics, more animations, and some tuning and tweaking.

The last time Madden had an engine(s) change was when they went from PS1 to PS2. There was a stark difference in the game, it was totally different from PS1.

It's not so much that this current game is garbage, its just OUTDATED and STALE. They have taken this engine(s) as far as it can go. We have been stuck in a vicious cycle of taking some steps forward, and some back, never really innovating or progressing. 2K didn't have todays more realistic physics engines, but the way those players interacted with each other, especially tackling, was FAR better than what we have now on much better hardware, getting to the latter stages of this generation of consoles already.

I'm tired of beating a dead horse, i realize Tiburon and EA simply will not reboot this franchise which is exactly what it needs. Just like Triple play became MVP, KO Kings became Fight Night, and NHL got ALOT better with a reboot. All i ask for now is a game where broken tackles aren't bordering arcadish, and pass coverage that plays like its supposed to. Can we have a BALANCED game without making us all single player franchise freaks that want to draft fake players and price hot dogs?

[mrprice33]

Re: Weak Madden Sales Signaling Trouble for Game Industry

Suction blocking wasn't an issue with 2K football, or NFL Gameday. Games created on lesser hardware. You are preaching to the choir about physics, because Madden has been in dire need of more realistic player interaction. 2 player scripted animations that "play out" are old. You can claim there are "far less" occurances, yet they still remain, same as they did during the PS2 era.

Mirroring routes absolutely existed in PS2 era Madden's, maybey you didn't pay enough attention. I played a guy at a tournament who was considered a very good player. He was up 7-3 at halftime. I ran mostly man cover 2 with bump coverage. In the second half, he absolutley destroyed me while i was running the same defense. I couldn't figure out why his WR was WIDE open in man coverage. He didn't motion or anything. After the game i asked him what he was doing. He was running a sluugo, or an out and up, and even after the WR released from the bump, the DB still ran the slant in, or the out part of the route while the WR was already at LEAST 5 yds up the field.

His exact words were "The DB mirrors the route so the WR gets serious seperation on the double move after the bump".

Nano blitzes were in 2K football, but to a much lesser extent. Madden football back on the PS2 era was where that phrase was coined. Nano blitzing and that term were created on Madden during last gen.

As far as slider and 2K, i was always more of a Madden guy but did play some 2K. I play competitvely ONLY either, only head to head either offline or online. 2K5 played pretty solid without slider adjustments. In Madden they don't apply to me or the hundreds of thousands of players who play online. beating up on the CPU and its weak AI are not my idea of fun.

I been playing Madden faithfully every single last year from 1989. I know this game inside out. This game hasn't changed other than tuning and tweaks, features added/removed, and better graphics. Underneath the fluff, its been the same game year in and year out for quite a while now.

I still play Madden 08 on the PC, which is based on the last gen version of the hardware, and the dbs do not run routes before the receivers like they do in the current incarnations of the game. What is happening now is primarily because the wr route running animations were changed to make their feet chop more at the point of the cut, while the dbs footwork and locomotion have remained basically the same. This causes the db to move faster than the wr, and therefore run the route ahead of the wr. That did not happen in last gen Madden/NCAA (especially not in the 2001 Madden/2002 NCAA, which were notorious for bad db AI play). It's certainly possible that we misunderstand each other on this point, but I'm specifically talking about that issue. If that's not what you are talking about, then I apologize.

As to the rest of your points, there are certainly some things that are going to carry over. The same coders basically did the work on the last gen and next gen versions of the game, and that means that they mostly used the same techniques to achieve certain ends. However, the game was overhauled pretty much in its entirety for the next gen systems. That's why those games played faster and that's why the runners had less weight and momentum, and were able to pretty much turn on a dime.

I feel for online guys, I really do. I used to play online a lot up until the last year or 2 (and went to a ton of tournaments), but stopped as the game just stopped being fun. Now that I primarily play against the CPU with slider adjustments, it's fun again.

I don't know what to say to you. There was some talk of maybe in the future having the community vote on the best slider edits, and these would then be built into some of the lobbies in the game, and really that's probably the best you can hope for.

[REDRZA]

Re: Weak Madden Sales Signaling Trouble for Game Industry

I still play Madden 08 on the PC, which is based on the last gen version of the hardware, and the dbs do not run routes before the receivers like they do in the current incarnations of the game. What is happening now is primarily because the wr route running animations were changed to make their feet chop more at the point of the cut, while the dbs footwork and locomotion have remained basically the same. This causes the db to move faster than the wr, and therefore run the route ahead of the wr. That did not happen in last gen Madden/NCAA (especially not in the 2001 Madden/2002 NCAA, which were notorious for bad db AI play). It's certainly possible that we misunderstand each other on this point, but I'm specifically talking about that issue. If that's not what you are talking about, then I apologize.

As to the rest of your points, there are certainly some things that are going to carry over. The same coders basically did the work on the last gen and next gen versions of the game, and that means that they mostly used the same techniques to achieve certain ends. However, the game was overhauled pretty much in its entirety for the next gen systems. That's why those games played faster and that's why the runners had less weight and momentum, and were able to pretty much turn on a dime.

I feel for online guys, I really do. I used to play online a lot up until the last year or 2 (and went to a ton of tournaments), but stopped as the game just stopped being fun. Now that I primarily play against the CPU with slider adjustments, it's fun again.

I don't know what to say to you. There was some talk of maybe in the future having the community vote on the best slider edits, and these would then be built into some of the lobbies in the game, and really that's probably the best you can hope for.

Im hoping for a complete reboot, and an overall better, smarter, more realistic game soup to nuts. Realistic physics and player interaction would be nice.

Since none of that will happen this year, im willing to settle (Madden has forced many of us to have to settle instead of being floored) for much improved pass coverage(man and zone) and much less broken tackles especially from WR's. If they can balance the game between offense and defense ill be alot more content and can possible enjoy the game at least through the football season. (Miss the days of playing Madden all year round).

[mrprice33]

Re: Weak Madden Sales Signaling Trouble for Game Industry

@ price33

Look not everyone thinks Madden is great and NBA 2K sucks, just because you see it that way and others don't doesn't mean you are the only one right and everyone else is wrong. Madden has its flaws as does 2K, but the flaws in Madden are greater to some, than those in 2K. People complain about 2K just as they do w/ Madden, maybe you don't see it as much, but it happens. Just like you say sliders help Madden, they help NBA 2K as well. In any case, I don't think it's right how you continue to take cheap shots at 2K in order to pump up Madden when others don't see it the way you do.

What do you mean by people letting it get away anyways? From what I've seen reviewers still give Madden high scores every year, it still sells more than any other sports game. Of course the community is going to be harsher, but the harshness probably comes from 2 factors that cannot be ignored - 1. Ea's purchase of the license definitely opened up Madden to harsher criticism and backlash. 2K avoids this to a degree b/c people don't like it, they can play Live. Madden is the only yearly NFL game in town. If you think that's not a factor you're naive IMO. 2. Disconnect between the community and the devs. W/ 2k there at least seems to be a concerted effort to listen to the community's needs and try to implement new features. Madden throws in gameplan, gameflow, and strat pad really without the community asking for or demanding these features. This leaves fans jaded and makes people wonder what the direction of the game really is.

I've bought every NBA 2K game from basically the beginning of the series on Dreamcast. Trust me, I'm not an NBA 2K basher in the least. I love that series. However, there are many posters here who either don't play other games enough or hold them to different standards, because a lot of the complaints I have and see about that game are dismissed here when people try to point at NBA 2K as the gold standard for what a sports game should be, and how Madden should try to emulate that game as closely as possible. It's hypocritical.

Oh trust me, I know why this site is filled with so many people who take drive by pot shots at everything EA. I've been here long enough to see the wars between the sides, and the resentment and hatred build up ever since the exclusivity agreement.

As to developer interaction, we had plenty of Madden developers here who were chased away by people who would rather call them idiots and morons than to offer helpful suggestions as to what the community wants. They still definitely listen though, as evidenced by the OS shout outs from Russ on NCAA and the constant interaction Ian Cummings has with fans on twitter.

I will ask you to further explain what the bolded sentence means. I looked back in my posts in this thread, and I'm not sure what you are referencing.

[mrprice33]

Re: Weak Madden Sales Signaling Trouble for Game Industry

Im hoping for a complete reboot, and an overall better, smarter, more realistic game soup to nuts. Realistic physics and player interaction would be nice.

Since none of that will happen this year, im willing to settle (Madden has forced many of us to have to settle instead of being floored) for much improved pass coverage(man and zone) and much less broken tackles especially from WR's. If they can balance the game between offense and defense ill be alot more content and can possible enjoy the game at least through the football season. (Miss the days of playing Madden all year round).

Like I said, it's unfortunate that you don't want to be a "franchise freak" (or that they don't at least allow you to edit sliders in online franchise), because that stuff is easily fixable today with sliders. Oh well.

[Rules]

Re: Weak Madden Sales Signaling Trouble for Game Industry

I tokk the year off from EA sports games with the exception of FIFA 10 and Madden 10. Well I just played FIFA 10 again the other day and well Madden 10 is under a cloud of dust as it has not been touched after just 3 games!

Though I have been reading how NCAA Football 11 is a huge improvement, I decided to pass again this year as the demo still feels the same ol' same ol' in terms of atmosphere and presentation for the last 10 years!!!!! Even the commentary is still the same. How many times can you continue to charge $60 full price for a game that has the same commentary, cut scenes, crowd noise, overlays, ect as the last several years????

This year I will be picking up FIFA 11, already preordered NHL 11, debating NBA Elite as I need to see more including the demo. Madden 11 is not worth even the discounted price tag of $49.99.

[rangerrick012]

Re: Weak Madden Sales Signaling Trouble for Game Industry

I've bought every NBA 2K game from basically the beginning of the series on Dreamcast. Trust me, I'm not an NBA 2K basher in the least. I love that series. However, there are many posters here who either don't play other games enough or hold them to different standards, because a lot of the complaints I have and see about that game are dismissed here when people try to point at NBA 2K as the gold standard for what a sports game should be, and how Madden should try to emulate that game as closely as possible. It's hypocritical.

Oh trust me, I know why this site is filled with so many people who take drive by pot shots at everything EA. I've been here long enough to see the wars between the sides, and the resentment and hatred build up ever since the exclusivity agreement.

As to developer interaction, we had plenty of Madden developers here who were chased away by people who would rather call them idiots and morons than to offer helpful suggestions as to what the community wants. They still definitely listen though, as evidenced by the OS shout outs from Russ on NCAA and the constant interaction Ian Cummings has with fans on twitter.

I will ask you to further explain what the bolded sentence means. I looked back in my posts in this thread, and I'm not sure what you are referencing.

I was referring to your statement of 2K seemingly getting away with having the same flaws Madden has. You seem to think people don't criticize 2K's (without slider adjustments) paint heavy game, sliding on court, control issues, these are all things that are brought up about 2K10. It's not like people think 2K is perfect, which is the picture you seem to be trying to paint.

But there are areas where NBA2K is ahead of Madden. The presentation and commentary for example is some of the best ever in a sports game. That's one of the areas where Madden continues to be lacking. Franchise and career modes in 2k10 are also superb.

You seem to think people don't criticize 2K for these gameplay issues and only take shots at Madden. That's where I disagree with you. And yes Madden compared to FIFA/2K/NHL is lacking in these critical areas - franchise/career mode and presentation. These are critical areas to consumers and the reason why some are so hard on Madden.

[bms715]

Weak Madden sales may signal a hit to the gaming industry, but I believe that it is more a result of a weak game that has not seen enough improvement to make people buy it. Unfortunately for us, the gamers, this is probably the result of: a) the difficulty/cost of making a good game for next-gen systems and b) the fact that developers only have a year to make/improve the game...In my opinion, I definitely wouldn't hate if Madden took a year off to completely re-create the game from the ground up...Would you?

[LiquorLogic]

Re: Weak Madden Sales Signaling Trouble for Game Industry

I tried to play Madden 10 last night. It was almost unplayable after I have been playing with Locomotion for the last month or so. I think from a gameplay perspective (animations, player control, etc.) it is head and shoulders above Madden 10. I won't be purchasing Madden 11 this year because of what happened (or didn't happen) to Franchise Mode.

FIRST BLOG for Madden 12 needs to be about Franchise Mode. PERIOD.

What if the changes to franchise were minimal next year, but EA added...wait for it...Real Physics ?

[mrprice33]

I don't think we'll see real physics in madden until 2013 at the earliest. I think they're going to use elite and nhl as guinea pigs and let the tech have a year under it's belt before trying to port it to madden. Ideally we'd have blown out franchise and presentation in 12 and rtp in 13.

Sent from my HTC EVO 4G using Tapatalk.

[bkrich83]

Re: Weak Madden Sales Signaling Trouble for Game Industry

According to VGCHARTZ.

Week 1 Madden 11 Sales.

Xbox360 - 542,803
PS3- 445,648

Last years #'s for week 1.

Week 1 Madden 10 Sales.

Xbox 360- 575,624
PS3- 363,256

Slightly down on the Xbox, and significantly up on the PS3. Overall #'s are up. Not sure how the sales are poor. Over a million copies first week.

[ZoneBlitz]

What Madden sales are telling the gaming industry is that we want better games. Madden in particular has morphed into a videogame that uses football as a mere premise or context - and not much else. There is no depth and EA has provided a textbook example of why competition in football gaming is sorely needed.

[bms715]

What Madden sales are telling the gaming industry is that we want better games. Madden in particular has morphed into a videogame that uses football as a mere premise or context - and not much else. There is no depth and EA has provided a textbook example of why competition in football gaming is sorely needed.

Exactly...If I was gonna get excited about any news regarding the upcoming football games, it would be that the exclusivity agreement is GOING AWAY...because it's gonna take a lot more than a year to fix Madden

[roadman]

Re: Weak Madden Sales Signaling Trouble for Game Industry

Exactly...If I was gonna get excited about any news regarding the upcoming football games, it would be that the exclusivity agreement is GOING AWAY...because it's gonna take a lot more than a year to fix Madden

That's between the NFL and EA.