Weak Madden Sales Signaling Trouble for Game Industry

[MidnightPyro]

Re: Weak Madden Sales Signaling Trouble for Game Industry

I bought Madden 10 on pre-order, and I actually enjoyed it. Until I won a few superbowls in my first few seasons with the Bengals, and it just became too easy to sign quality players in the offseason. I had 3 star running backs signed for cheap. Simply put, year after year, franchise mode just seems much too easy to create a dynasty without trying.

I have a bit of a laundry list of franchise gripes that never seem to be fixed. And this year, looking at the new features of Madden is a yawner. There's some tweaks and gameplay changes. There's nothing I see that warrants $60. Will I buy it off eBay at some point if it's available cheaply and give it a shot? Maybe. But this year I think I'm going from NCAA 11, which I am enjoying quite a bit, to Fifa in September. I imagine there's quite a few people out there like me who just weren't excited about this years Madden. Without the excitement, sales figures drop.

[mrprice33]

Re: Weak Madden Sales Signaling Trouble for Game Industry

Psychic DBs and Synchronized Route Running, was absolutely, unequivocally on last gen. Not even a maybe.

from later on in the thread...


I still play Madden 08 on the PC, which is based on the last gen version of the hardware, and the dbs do not run routes before the receivers like they do in the current incarnations of the game. What is happening now is primarily because the wr route running animations were changed to make their feet chop more at the point of the cut, while the dbs footwork and locomotion have remained basically the same. This causes the db to move faster than the wr, and therefore run the route ahead of the wr. That did not happen in last gen Madden/NCAA (especially not in the 2001 Madden/2002 NCAA, which were notorious for bad db AI play). It's certainly possible that we misunderstand each other on this point, but I'm specifically talking about that issue. If that's not what you are talking about, then I apologize.

[debauchlord]

Re: Weak Madden Sales Signaling Trouble for Game Industry

from later on in the thread...

You might be a fan boy, but at least your arguments are valid and dare I say, sane. Rare in this day and age.

The two major problems afflicting the Madden series (as I see it):
1. One year "development" cycle. One year is not enough for development. What you can get out of one year is graphical fixes, bug fixes, slight modifications...basically fill the holes and apply a fresh coat of paint. The problem is, you NEED to make it "seem" new (see problem 2), which is where you get 3/4 thought-out "gimmicks".
2. Madden, because of its license, needs to be EVERYTHING to EVERYONE. We could argue for days but, as someone said, ask 100 people and you will get 100 answers. Madden needs sliders, not because the game out of the box is bad, but because YOU think it is bad. Because Madden needs to be everything, it HAS to cater to the LCD (lowest common denominator); that is harsh, but it is the fact. BUT simply because it caters to the LCD, it fails as a yearly game (see problem 1), because your majority LCD do not purchase the same game yearly (or what is perceived as the same game).

It is a terrifying, cyclical conundrum.

Also notice, I did not add the daily "no competition" debate into the mix, because, honestly, that is not Madden's singular problem right now. I've said this before but just having competition in the marketplace does not guarantee a better product. You can imagine that it does, but what it can also do is produce milquetoast programming where the better marketing strategy wins.

[Only1LT]

Re: Weak Madden Sales Signaling Trouble for Game Industry

from later on in the thread...


I still play Madden 08 on the PC, which is based on the last gen version of the hardware, and the dbs do not run routes before the receivers like they do in the current incarnations of the game. What is happening now is primarily because the wr route running animations were changed to make their feet chop more at the point of the cut, while the dbs footwork and locomotion have remained basically the same. This causes the db to move faster than the wr, and therefore run the route ahead of the wr. That did not happen in last gen Madden/NCAA (especially not in the 2001 Madden/2002 NCAA, which were notorious for bad db AI play). It's certainly possible that we misunderstand each other on this point, but I'm specifically talking about that issue. If that's not what you are talking about, then I apologize.

Ok. That's great lol.

You posted that YOU don't see any psychic DBs or synchronized route running in Madden 08 PC. I am posting that I HAVE seen these things in Madden on the PS2 for at least MOST of this past decade. I have been talking about those very same issues, and coined those phrases on boards, LONG before I ever heard of OS Sports, and LONG before the PS3 was invented.

Maybe you don't know what I mean by psychic DBs or synchronized route running. Maybe we are misunderstanding each other. Or maybe you know exactly what I mean by those terms, and there is no misunderstanding, and you just don't agree.

If it's one of the first two, then I would be happy to go more in depth to explain. If it's the third one, then I don't know what else to say other than, if you say so I guess.

[beastwork]

Re: Weak Madden Sales Signaling Trouble for Game Industry

there's nothing wrong with a game being published every year. consumers just shouldn't buy it every year. EA needs to do a better job of implementing meaningful and substantive updates, with excellence. throwing in some sloppy code that turns people off is not the way to go.

I enjoy football gaming but, this year my girl will get more QT, my guitar playing will improve, and my netflix subscription will be working over time. thanks EA for the extra free time lol

[Only1LT]

Re: Weak Madden Sales Signaling Trouble for Game Industry

You might be a fan boy, but at least your arguments are valid and dare I say, sane. Rare in this day and age.

The two major problems afflicting the Madden series (as I see it):
1. One year "development" cycle. One year is not enough for development. What you can get out of one year is graphical fixes, bug fixes, slight modifications...basically fill the holes and apply a fresh coat of paint. The problem is, you NEED to make it "seem" new (see problem 2), which is where you get 3/4 thought-out "gimmicks".
2. Madden, because of its license, needs to be EVERYTHING to EVERYONE. We could argue for days but, as someone said, ask 100 people and you will get 100 answers. Madden needs sliders, not because the game out of the box is bad, but because YOU think it is bad. Because Madden needs to be everything, it HAS to cater to the LCD (lowest common denominator); that is harsh, but it is the fact. BUT simply because it caters to the LCD, it fails as a yearly game (see problem 1), because your majority LCD do not purchase the same game yearly (or what is perceived as the same game).

It is a terrifying, cyclical conundrum.

Also notice, I did not add the daily "no competition" debate into the mix, because, honestly, that is not Madden's singular problem right now. I've said this before but just having competition in the marketplace does not guarantee a better product. You can imagine that it does, but what it can also do is produce milquetoast programming where the better marketing strategy wins.

True. Competition will not guarantee a better product, but that is only if you are looking at competition making MADDEN better. I think that is where some people get slightly confused.

Competition will not FORCE EA/ Tiburon to do anything. Bad products are made by companies who compete for consumers everyday, and no i am not saying that Madden is a bad product, I am just speaking in generalities.

But what CAN be said, is that if there were more Football videogame products on the market, that any particular individual will have a better chance of finding one that he/ she likes.

[mrprice33]

Ok. That's great lol.

You posted that YOU don't see any psychic DBs or synchronized route running in Madden 08 PC. I am posting that I HAVE seen these things in Madden on the PS2 for at least MOST of this past decade. I have been talking about those very same issues, and coined those phrases on boards, LONG before I ever heard of OS Sports, and LONG before the PS3 was invented.

Maybe you don't know what I mean by psychic DBs or synchronized route running. Maybe we are misunderstanding each other. Or maybe you know exactly what I mean by those terms, and there is no misunderstanding, and you just don't agree.

If it's one of the first two, then I would be happy to go more in depth to explain. If it's the third one, then I don't know what else to say other than, if you say so I guess.

I explained exactly what I was talking about. Could you provide a video of last gen madden detailing what you're talking about?


Sent from my HTC EVO 4G using Tapatalk.

[Only1LT]

Re: Weak Madden Sales Signaling Trouble for Game Industry

I explained exactly what I was talking about. Could you provide a video of last gen madden detailing what you're talking about?


Sent from my HTC EVO 4G using Tapatalk.

Ido not have any last gen Maddens anymore. I can almost guarantee that if you went on YouTube though, you will find "psychic DB" videos containing last gen Maddens, if you are so inclined to look.

Beyond that, and I do not mean this personally against you, so please don't take it that way, but beyond that, I will not spend my time hunting "evidence" down for you, because it really doesn't mater to me whether you believe me or not.

Again, I don't mean any offense by that, but the fact that this issue was on last gen, is WIDELY known. It is what it is.

[mrprice33]

You might be a fan boy, but at least your arguments are valid and dare I say, sane. Rare in this day and age.

The two major problems afflicting the Madden series (as I see it):
1. One year "development" cycle. One year is not enough for development. What you can get out of one year is graphical fixes, bug fixes, slight modifications...basically fill the holes and apply a fresh coat of paint. The problem is, you NEED to make it "seem" new (see problem 2), which is where you get 3/4 thought-out "gimmicks".
2. Madden, because of its license, needs to be EVERYTHING to EVERYONE. We could argue for days but, as someone said, ask 100 people and you will get 100 answers. Madden needs sliders, not because the game out of the box is bad, but because YOU think it is bad. Because Madden needs to be everything, it HAS to cater to the LCD (lowest common denominator); that is harsh, but it is the fact. BUT simply because it caters to the LCD, it fails as a yearly game (see problem 1), because your majority LCD do not purchase the same game yearly (or what is perceived as the same game).

It is a terrifying, cyclical conundrum.

Also notice, I did not add the daily "no competition" debate into the mix, because, honestly, that is not Madden's singular problem right now. I've said this before but just having competition in the marketplace does not guarantee a better product. You can imagine that it does, but what it can also do is produce milquetoast programming where the better marketing strategy wins.

It's no secret I'm a fan of madden football. But i was also a fan of 2k football and bought 2k3,4, and 5 on the day they were released. I also bought apf and backbreaker on day 1, although I really didn't like it.

I think the problem is that there's so much garbage posted on these boards on a day to day basis that sometimes it looks like I'm blindly defending the product. I'm not. I barely played the first 3 versions on next gen and only recently have I been able to play multiple seasons of it. I've also talked in- depth about my problems with the decision to not update franchise.

Now to the points of your post. By and large I agree with you. However, whereas others make those points and present them as an indictment of ea sports, the developers, the nfl, etc etc, I look at it like this: ultimately it's just a game. Either you like it or you don't. For example, I don't really like Borderlands, even though a lot of people do. It's no big deal to me, I just play something else.

Sent from my HTC EVO 4G using Tapatalk.

[mrprice33]

Ido not have any last gen Maddens anymore. I can almost guarantee that if you went on YouTube though, you will find "psychic DB" videos containing last gen Maddens, if you are so inclined to look.

Beyond that, and I do not mean this personally against you, so please don't take it that way, but beyond that, I will not spend my time hunting "evidence" down for you, because it really doesn't mater to me whether you believe me or not.

Again, I don't mean any offense by that, but the fact that this issue was on last gen, is WIDELY known. It is what it is.

Well people not providing evidence of their claims is part of the problem with discourse in general and the internet in particular. I'll be home the next few days, maybe I'll do a quick video of last gen madden compared to this gen coverage wise.


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[Only1LT]

Re: Weak Madden Sales Signaling Trouble for Game Industry

Well people not providing evidence of their claims is part of the problem with discourse in general and the internet in particular. I'll be home the next few days, maybe I'll do a quick video of last gen madden compared to this gen coverage wise.


Sent from my HTC EVO 4G using Tapatalk.

I hear you, and I tend to agree, but I don't know what else to tell you. By all means, don't believe me. The Sun will still come up tomorrow... hopefully lol.

[MAzing87]

Re: Weak Madden Sales Signaling Trouble for Game Industry

True. Competition will not guarantee a better product, but that is only if you are looking at competition making MADDEN better. I think that is where some people get slightly confused.

Competition will not FORCE EA/ Tiburon to do anything. Bad products are made by companies who compete for consumers everyday, and no i am not saying that Madden is a bad product, I am just speaking in generalities.

But what CAN be said, is that if there were more Football videogame products on the market, that any particular individual will have a better chance of finding one that he/ she likes.

I second this. Competition will never guarantee a better product but will give a gamer the power to choose. I miss those days where I can stand at the gaming store or game aisle at Best Buy or some other retailer, look at two NFL titles made by different companies, and it was up to me, to decide which game gets my $65 dollars. NFL exclusive rights tying to one franchise stripped my right to choose. I just want that power back.

[bfindeisen]

Video games are a luxury for most. Now that the economy has corrected itself, the video game industry "bubble" has burst. People are prioritizing more and unfortunately for the video game industry, games are not vital.

[REDRZA]

Re: Weak Madden Sales Signaling Trouble for Game Industry

from later on in the thread...


I still play Madden 08 on the PC, which is based on the last gen version of the hardware, and the dbs do not run routes before the receivers like they do in the current incarnations of the game. What is happening now is primarily because the wr route running animations were changed to make their feet chop more at the point of the cut, while the dbs footwork and locomotion have remained basically the same. This causes the db to move faster than the wr, and therefore run the route ahead of the wr. That did not happen in last gen Madden/NCAA (especially not in the 2001 Madden/2002 NCAA, which were notorious for bad db AI play). It's certainly possible that we misunderstand each other on this point, but I'm specifically talking about that issue. If that's not what you are talking about, then I apologize.

Price, no offense but there is no point debating with you. Stop trying to analyze it by talking about WR and DB footwork. That isn't even what we are talking about. Madden, since last gen and probably further, handles man coverage by making the DB mirror the route of the WR. Forget footwork and cuts, im talking about the way the man coverage is coded. They aren't "covering" the WR, they are running the same routes.

Just like i said earlier in the thread, and another long time Madden player in Only1LT, these issues have plagued the game since last gen, because this game isn't "new", its the same legacy code they have used for years, tweaked and tuned a bit different every year. Every year it may improve a slight bit in one area, but at the same time takes steps backwards. This is because the nuts and bolts of this game, the core code or engine(s) should be put to pasture.

[REDRZA]

Re: Weak Madden Sales Signaling Trouble for Game Industry

You might be a fan boy, but at least your arguments are valid and dare I say, sane. Rare in this day and age.

The two major problems afflicting the Madden series (as I see it):
1. One year "development" cycle. One year is not enough for development. What you can get out of one year is graphical fixes, bug fixes, slight modifications...basically fill the holes and apply a fresh coat of paint. The problem is, you NEED to make it "seem" new (see problem 2), which is where you get 3/4 thought-out "gimmicks".
2. Madden, because of its license, needs to be EVERYTHING to EVERYONE. We could argue for days but, as someone said, ask 100 people and you will get 100 answers. Madden needs sliders, not because the game out of the box is bad, but because YOU think it is bad. Because Madden needs to be everything, it HAS to cater to the LCD (lowest common denominator); that is harsh, but it is the fact. BUT simply because it caters to the LCD, it fails as a yearly game (see problem 1), because your majority LCD do not purchase the same game yearly (or what is perceived as the same game).

It is a terrifying, cyclical conundrum.

Also notice, I did not add the daily "no competition" debate into the mix, because, honestly, that is not Madden's singular problem right now. I've said this before but just having competition in the marketplace does not guarantee a better product. You can imagine that it does, but what it can also do is produce milquetoast programming where the better marketing strategy wins.

I agree with you 100%, BUT the fact that they are on an annual development cycle does NOT give them a pass. Meaning, they could have, and SHOULD have been working on a better, smarter, more innovative game engine(s) (A BRAND NEW GAME) behind the scenes. How many employees does it take to tweak and tune the same code they have been using for many, many years? They could easily set aside resources to develop NEW stuff, even taking a few years to make it right before releasing it. Other developers have done this, most developers are working on multiple projects even though they may have a big release coming soon.