Robert Flores Goes One-On-One With EA Sports Madden NFL 11 Game Designers (ESPN)

[brza37]

Re: Robert Flores Goes One-On-One With EA Sports Madden NFL 11 Game Designers (ESPN)

Talk about a breath of fresh air!

Thanks for actually showing up this early into your Madden 12 cycle!

I, for one, am one of those guys that didn't buy Madden 11 because of the drastic focus on the casual gamer. I realize that many things may have been done with good/great intentions, but your non-blog about Franchise Mode killed my gaming soul.

To see you even somewhat active on the boards again gives me a LOT of hope that you guys are paying attention to what is NEEDED in Franchise Mode. Thanks for the community interaction and thanks for trying to make Madden into the great game we all want it to be.

+1000

Hopefully franchise does get revamped so I'll have a reason to buy Madden 12.

[rooney8]

Re: Robert Flores Goes One-On-One With EA Sports Madden NFL 11 Game Designers (ESPN)

@udungoofed there are no denying the sales of Madden are going the wrong direction while other games are selling better even in this economy. I still think the biggest thing affecting sales is all the customers Madden 07/08/09 lost but I don't think this years effort helped either.

[roadman]

Re: Robert Flores Goes One-On-One With EA Sports Madden NFL 11 Game Designers (ESPN)

I have to admit I'm quite confused with how the Madden team and the NHL team seem to contradict one another. It just doesn't all add up to me.

I don't know if you saw Phil's two's posts just before yours.

He did say Franchise Mode is a priority for them. I don't know anymore what he would have to say at this time.

[MAzing87]

Re: Robert Flores Goes One-On-One With EA Sports Madden NFL 11 Game Designers (ESPN)

I have to admit I'm quite confused with how the Madden team and the NHL team seem to contradict one another. It just doesn't all add up to me.


On one hand, we have Phil stating how "very easy" these features would be to implement, but "spreadsheet management" is boring and needs to be done in other methods.

On the other hand, we have yesterday's NHL blog on this very same subject, Free Agency and what they've done with NHL 11. Direct quote from that blog "This year, for NHL 11, we worked hard to devote the time and resources to a feature that we know many of you have been clamoring for, for a couple of years now"

So Madden says it's easy to do, yet boring and NHL says it was hard to do and everyone is excited about it. Lets also not forget how much more COMPLEX the NHL Collective Bargaining Agreement is, yet NHL decided to give it's fans this "spreadsheet manangement stuff" that Madden claims again, is so boring.


Now if you look at the VGChartz data, it's not definitive but it's certainly useable information, Madden has had declining opening week sales since 07 (I didn't look back further).

Madden 07 - 2.19M
Madden 08 - 1.64M
Madden 09 - 1.65M
Madden 10 - 1.26M
Madden 11 - 1.21M

Overall Sales (all platforms)

Madden 07 - 9.09M
Madden 08 - 7.70M
Madden 09 - 8.42M
Madden 10 - 6.81M
Madden 11 - ????
ChrisS posted a bit on how the industry and economy is slowing down for games in general and Madden is a reflection of that. However how has NHL fared with sales during the same time period?

NHL 07 - 870K
NHL 08 - 420K
NHL 09 - 900K
NHL 10 - 1.05M

Just for kicks'n'giggles, how about FIFA and NBA 2K, 2 more highly regarded sports titles like NHL.

FIFA 07 - 6.25M
FIFA 08 - 9.12M
FIFA 09 - 8.85M
FIFA 10 - 9.35M

NBA 2k7 - 1.54M
NBA 2k8 - 1.92M
NBA 2k9 - 2.06M
NBA 2k10 - 2.47M

Lets not forget about the sales records COD MW2 recently broke right when the economy news was everywhere. Video game sales are down overall, but fans are certainly not avoiding the "better titles".

So is it the economy, or are these development teams listening to the fans of the sports of the games being produced? The Madden guys have said many times, even in the ESPN peice in the OP, that they are trying to find ways to get more casual fans into the game. You don't see this from any other EA sports title that I've seen. NHL makes a hockey game for hockey fans, and they see it in the sales numbers.

Why is NHL winning every single Sports Game of the Year award if when it comes to Madden it's the economy and not the game that's dictating sales?


Somehow, this all doesn't add up to me. I realize it's not just FA that's the factor here, it's just an example. You have one EA sports title saying something is boring, and it's sales are dropping and you have another EA sports title that's the reigning sports game of the year with increased sales......by doing what's "boring".

Very interesting post.

[roadman]

Re: Robert Flores Goes One-On-One With EA Sports Madden NFL 11 Game Designers (ESPN)

I love going back to this chart posted by Valderaz in March of this year.

There are nicely done graphs from 2005 to 2010.

http://www.operationsports.com/Valda...-through-2010/

07 had a huge jump, and then 08 and 09 went back to 06's numbers. The decline from 09 to 10 you can debate the quality of the game(although more sim on the field than 06-09) and the economy tanking.

You can't leave out the economy in the equation since unemployment has doubled in the last few years.

[udungoofed]

Re: Robert Flores Goes One-On-One With EA Sports Madden NFL 11 Game Designers (ESPN)

I don't know if you saw Phil's two's posts just before yours.

He did say Franchise Mode is a priority for them. I don't know anymore what he would have to say at this time.

There's nothing he can say and that's fine, I'm not after a response from him I'm just pointing out what I don't understand.

I mean, how did FIFA overtake PES as the premier football video game? It made the game the best football game out there. It didn't go "screw what soccer fans want for this year, lets find ways to get non-soccer gamers to buy our product"

EA's admittedly not solely focused on the American football fan and therin lies the problem IMO. I believe that no matter how much a "casual" fan likes Madden 11, they won't be a yearly buyer because they are "casual" fan. Madden 11 will keep them happy beyond a year because they aren't someone who needs the latest version.

It's just not about a singular feature or mode, it's the fact that they divide their already thin resources and time into pleasing the casual and the hardcore, while the other EA sports titles just aim to please the fans of the sport without segregating them into groups and giving each of them only part of their attention.

Then again, I'm no expert on the topics and it's just how I would percieve things to happen. Time will tell I suppose.

[roadman]

Re: Robert Flores Goes One-On-One With EA Sports Madden NFL 11 Game Designers (ESPN)

There's nothing he can say and that's fine, I'm not after a response from him I'm just pointing out what I don't understand.

I mean, how did FIFA overtake PES as the premier football video game? It made the game the best football game out there. It didn't go "screw what soccer fans want for this year, lets find ways to get non-soccer gamers to buy our product"

EA's admittedly not solely focused on the American football fan and therin lies the problem IMO. I believe that no matter how much a "casual" fan likes Madden 11, they won't be a yearly buyer because they are "casual" fan. Madden 11 will keep them happy beyond a year because they aren't someone who needs the latest version.

It's just not about a singular feature or mode, it's the fact that they divide their already thin resources and time into pleasing the casual and the hardcore, while the other EA sports titles just aim to please the fans of the sport without segregating them into groups and giving each of them only part of their attention.

Then again, I'm no expert on the topics and it's just how I would percieve things to happen. Time will tell I suppose.

You say a lot of good things in your post that I don't disagree with.

I think FIFA became better as more people latched onto soccer. My son plays soccer(High School) and he's never heard of PES. He's played FIFA 08 to the present. I think FIFA does a better job of marketing. I'm not a soccer fan, but admittedly, I watched the World Cup with our son.

[adembroski]

Re: Robert Flores Goes One-On-One With EA Sports Madden NFL 11 Game Designers (ESPN)

I have to admit I'm quite confused with how the Madden team and the NHL team seem to contradict one another. It just doesn't all add up to me.


On one hand, we have Phil stating how "very easy" these features would be to implement, but "spreadsheet management" is boring and needs to be done in other methods.

On the other hand, we have yesterday's NHL blog on this very same subject, Free Agency and what they've done with NHL 11. Direct quote from that blog "This year, for NHL 11, we worked hard to devote the time and resources to a feature that we know many of you have been clamoring for, for a couple of years now"

So Madden says it's easy to do, yet boring and NHL says it was hard to do and everyone is excited about it. Lets also not forget how much more COMPLEX the NHL Collective Bargaining Agreement is, yet NHL decided to give it's fans this "spreadsheet manangement stuff" that Madden claims again, is so boring.

But it hasn't happened yet. You're making comparisons to nothing. NHL has grown based on its gameplay strength to this point. This is the first major "hardcore" addition to franchise mode since it began its rebuilding process. You're going to make sales comparisons below, but you're comparing with versions of NHL that have not added UFAs and things like it. NHL has not made majors strides in the franchise mode department since '07.

It has made huge strides in the gameplay department. Massive strides. It has set a new bar in creating sim-yet-fun gameplay. This is what will also carry NHL 11 sales... not UFAs. You are inventing causation that doesn't exist.

What do you think the percentages are of hardcore vs. casual Madden vs. NHL players? I think that plays into the equation. I'd bet on average an NHL 11 player is a more hardcore hockey fan than the average Madden player is toward football.

Now if you look at the VGChartz data, it's not definitive but it's certainly useable information, Madden has had declining opening week sales since 07 (I didn't look back further).

Madden 07 - 2.19M
Madden 08 - 1.64M
Madden 09 - 1.65M
Madden 10 - 1.26M
Madden 11 - 1.21M

Overall Sales (all platforms)

Madden 07 - 9.09M
Madden 08 - 7.70M
Madden 09 - 8.42M
Madden 10 - 6.81M
Madden 11 - ????
ChrisS posted a bit on how the industry and economy is slowing down for games in general and Madden is a reflection of that. However how has NHL fared with sales during the same time period?

NHL 07 - 870K
NHL 08 - 420K
NHL 09 - 900K
NHL 10 - 1.05M

NHL 07 is the equivalent of Madden 10 in terms of its rejuvenation cycle. Madden 07-09 were under a different regime who, in my opinion, held our community in contempt. Just prior to the release of Madden 09, this new team took over. They do not hold us in contempt because they are much closer to us in terms of their outlook on Madden.

Beginning with the '07 game the NHL team sought to reinvent itself in a new, more realistic direction. It took 3 years to realize its vision. Madden began this journey with the '10 game.

I'm not saying everyone at Tiburon now is a hardcore sim player, but I am saying they want to earn the respect of the hardcore sim player above all else. They believe that when OS is singing the praises of the "New Madden", they will have succeeded. Like in NHL, when they began the work of reinventing their game, there are missteps and set backs.

Just for kicks'n'giggles, how about FIFA and NBA 2K, 2 more highly regarded sports titles like NHL.

FIFA 07 - 6.25M
FIFA 08 - 9.12M
FIFA 09 - 8.85M
FIFA 10 - 9.35M

Same thing with FIFA, though they took an extra year. FIFA 07 suffered from being badly timed. FIFA has a much larger potential audience than Madden, being that it is the Madden of Europe and South America.

NBA 2k7 - 1.54M
NBA 2k8 - 1.92M
NBA 2k9 - 2.06M
NBA 2k10 - 2.47M

Now we're talking about a game that was already where it belonged and didn't need to rebuild from scratch. NBA 2k7 was probably the best professional sports game at the 360 launch (and the best overall was it's college counterpart).

Lets not forget about the sales records COD MW2 recently broke right when the economy news was everywhere. Video game sales are down overall, but fans are certainly not avoiding the "better titles".

True, this is the case in nearly all industries. I don't think anybody is arguing that Madden is at COD, FIFA, NBA 2k, or NHL's level of quality yet, even Phil. They're taking the same road as FIFA and NHL took at the start of this generation, however... and history shows us, it's a 3-4 year journey.

So is it the economy, or are these development teams listening to the fans of the sports of the games being produced? The Madden guys have said many times, even in the ESPN peice in the OP, that they are trying to find ways to get more casual fans into the game. You don't see this from any other EA sports title that I've seen. NHL makes a hockey game for hockey fans, and they see it in the sales numbers.

I think the trouble is that NHL didn't really have an audience to start with. I imagine there was little to no directives from on high, and the team had virtually unlimited freedom to do as they pleased. FIFA took an extra year, but having an audience in place likely meant they were giving some heavy direction. I'm a firm believer that management should hire people who make games and let them make games.

Why is NHL winning every single Sports Game of the Year award if when it comes to Madden it's the economy and not the game that's dictating sales?

Back to my hardcore vs. casual statement. The hardcore user is going to find a way to buy in a tough economy because the game means more to him. If a game's user base is made up of more hardcore users, then those users are going to carry you through a recession.

Somehow, this all doesn't add up to me. I realize it's not just FA that's the factor here, it's just an example. You have one EA sports title saying something is boring, and it's sales are dropping and you have another EA sports title that's the reigning sports game of the year with increased sales......by doing what's "boring".

No, it hasn't. Once again, NHL hasn't been doing what's "boring", it's been doing what's rather exciting. Right stick shot control, great online features, board play, general gameplay improvements. Only now, since they've reached a level of greatness gameplay-wise, are they turning to franchise mode with any real focus.

At any rate, Phil just said in this very thread that we're going to see a much deeper franchise mode in M12. In other words, he's not trying to exclude the 'boring stuff', but find a way to make it not boring. How can you possibly have a problem with that? NFL Head Coach's manor of handling things like RFAs, the draft, free agency, is vastly superior in terms of entertainment value than any franchise mode in existence... why would you not want them to take inspiration from it?

[Phil_Frazier]

Re: Robert Flores Goes One-On-One With EA Sports Madden NFL 11 Game Designers (ESPN)

So Madden says it's easy to do, yet boring and NHL says it was hard to do and everyone is excited about it. Lets also not forget how much more COMPLEX the NHL Collective Bargaining Agreement is, yet NHL decided to give it's fans this "spreadsheet manangement stuff" that Madden claims again, is so boring.

Valid question here so I'll take a stab at providing my interpretation of the interviews/blog.

I actually think the Madden team and the NHL team are saying the same thing, but in different ways. From the Madden side, I would very easily change my approach to the answer to match that of the NHL blog and it would have the same meaning. I'm not saying that these features are boring and that we don't want to add them. I'm saying it would be easy to simply add them into the game in a way that's boring for 90% of our audience. The challenge lies with our designers to develop a system that takes that same feature and does it in a way that is more compelling to a larger portion of our audience. NHL admitting that they worked hard, and devoted resourses to this problem indicates to me that they didn't take the easy way out as well.

Just one man's interpretation...

Phil

[TDKing]

Re: Robert Flores Goes One-On-One With EA Sports Madden NFL 11 Game Designers (ESPN)

Phil, One question... Do you think more people would have used the Online Franchise mode if it was done correctly ? I'm thinking yes! I know this is old news now so no need for you to really answer. Thanks

[PantherBeast_OS]

Re: Robert Flores Goes One-On-One With EA Sports Madden NFL 11 Game Designers (ESPN)

Phil will ya'll give equal attention to offline franchise mode as ya'll are doing with online franchise mode this coming year. I play offline franchise mode more then I do online franchise.

[RGiles36]

Re: Robert Flores Goes One-On-One With EA Sports Madden NFL 11 Game Designers (ESPN)

Sidenote: I thought I checked VGchartz last week and the numbers for NBA 2K had dropped? Perhaps I didn't look at the big picture (overall sales).

Phil will ya'll give equal attention to offline franchise mode as ya'll are doing with online franchise mode this coming year. I play offline franchise mode more then I do online franchise.

I'd think they go hand & hand, would they not?

[udungoofed]

Re: Robert Flores Goes One-On-One With EA Sports Madden NFL 11 Game Designers (ESPN)

But it hasn't happened yet. You're making comparisons to nothing. NHL has grown based on its gameplay strength to this point. This is the first major "hardcore" addition to franchise mode since it began its rebuilding process. You're going to make sales comparisons below, but you're comparing with versions of NHL that have not added UFAs and things like it. NHL has not made majors strides in the franchise mode department since '07.

Not true. NHL 09 added Be A Pro, NHL 10 added Be A GM (great mode, some GM AI flaws), NHL 11 improves on these modes. To say they have no made major strides in the franchise dept until now is flat out wrong.

It has made huge strides in the gameplay department. Massive strides. It has set a new bar in creating sim-yet-fun gameplay. This is what will also carry NHL 11 sales... not UFAs. You are inventing causation that doesn't exist.

I mentioned how Free Agency is just an example of something "true fans want" and got in NHL, while Madden doesn't put it in. I never meant to insinuate this singular feature is going to be the only factor behind it's sales and I believe I did state that somewhere.

What do you think the percentages are of hardcore vs. casual Madden vs. NHL players? I think that plays into the equation. I'd bet on average an NHL 11 player is a more hardcore hockey fan than the average Madden player is toward football.

I'd agree, because the NHL game is focused on building a game for the hardcore hockey fan, and it's increasing in sales regardless.

Madden has chosen to try and please both hardcore and non hardcore, but it doesn't appear to be yielding the same results.

If NHL doesn't have to please the casual fan and can still improve sales, why can't Madden? Madden has a much larger base of fans to appeal to than NHL does, it's not even close. Why does Madden need to approach people who aren't as into football, rather than say people who simply think Madden "sucks" or those that still prefer 2k5? Why not build a great hardcore football game and bring those football fans back to Madden instead of this casual/hardcore split.

NHL 07 is the equivalent of Madden 10 in terms of its rejuvenation cycle. Madden 07-09 were under a different regime who, in my opinion, held our community in contempt. Just prior to the release of Madden 09, this new team took over. They do not hold us in contempt because they are much closer to us in terms of their outlook on Madden.

Beginning with the '07 game the NHL team sought to reinvent itself in a new, more realistic direction. It took 3 years to realize its vision. Madden began this journey with the '10 game.

I see what you are saying with this 100% and I'm fine with it up until I recall purchasing 06-09 and quite frankly I still feel burned to this day.

Add in the changes to purchasing used copies of games (online pass) and trying to please other markets (casuals), certainly can make someone feel cheated.

It's great that the vision has finally been found, but I believe that much of the forum resentment towards EA comes from the fact that we were given a "poor game" for a few years (despite questionable review scores IMO)..and now they are focused on getting money from another market cause we're "pissed" and not as likely to buy it right now.

Same thing with FIFA, though they took an extra year. FIFA 07 suffered from being badly timed. FIFA has a much larger potential audience than Madden, being that it is the Madden of Europe and South America.

Now we're talking about a game that was already where it belonged and didn't need to rebuild from scratch. NBA 2k7 was probably the best professional sports game at the 360 launch (and the best overall was it's college counterpart).

The only use of these numbers was to show there can be growth despite the economic situation. I strongly disagree that the economy is the result of Madden's lower sales to previous years.

Back to my hardcore vs. casual statement. The hardcore user is going to find a way to buy in a tough economy because the game means more to him. If a game's user base is made up of more hardcore users, then those users are going to carry you through a recession.

So doesn't that suggest Madden's hardcore fans have lost or are losing interest then? Shouldn't the game development be focused on "Hardcore. Franchise. Tough." rather than "Simpler. Quicker. Deeper" ?

No, it hasn't. Once again, NHL hasn't been doing what's "boring", it's been doing what's rather exciting. Right stick shot control, great online features, board play, general gameplay improvements. Only now, since they've reached a level of greatness gameplay-wise, are they turning to franchise mode with any real focus.

I was talking about the franchise mode and NHL's Be A GM is VERY MUCH "spreadsheet management". Rows of players and ratings are there and you manage them.

Again, you are incorrect in saying franchise mode is being looked at now for the first time, simply not true.

At any rate, Phil just said in this very thread that we're going to see a much deeper franchise mode in M12. In other words, he's not trying to exclude the 'boring stuff', but find a way to make it not boring. How can you possibly have a problem with that? NFL Head Coach's manor of handling things like RFAs, the draft, free agency, is vastly superior in terms of entertainment value than any franchise mode in existence... why would you not want them to take inspiration from it?

My point before was that what Madden refers to as boring is done within the Be a GM mode and many people weren't bored by it in NHL's new mode "LAST YEAR"

I don't disagree that Head Coach was an entirely fresh mode and I'm all for a franchise mode in that direction, but I do disagree that the old way of doing things wasn't good enough. Had Madden 06 on next gen started off with where franchise got to on last gen, I truly believe that people would have far less issues with the franchise mode, because the mode WAS good on last gen. Franchise mode was great as "spreadsheet management" and I wish we at least had that to play with until the re-design, rather than bits and pieces of it.

Nothing is worse than a partially done feature and unfortunately I believe most of next-gen's features have been that.

[Phil_Frazier]

Re: Robert Flores Goes One-On-One With EA Sports Madden NFL 11 Game Designers (ESPN)

Phil, One question... Do you think more people would have used the Online Franchise mode if it was done correctly ? I'm thinking yes! I know this is old news now so no need for you to really answer. Thanks

If I answer this question aren't I admitting that it was done incorrectly?

I do feel like the direction we chose (server based) was the right direction to go. My personal theory on why the mode isn't used isn't because we lack a free agent system. I believe it has more to do with the nature of online and scheduling. Coordinating an entire league is hard work and as soon as one person loses interest, the rest of the league is sure to follow. If we can somehow crack the issue of scheduling and more flexible timing options, I think we might be on to something.

Phil

[SteelerSpartan]

Re: Robert Flores Goes One-On-One With EA Sports Madden NFL 11 Game Designers (ESPN)

udungoofed speaks the truth