Robert Flores Goes One-On-One With EA Sports Madden NFL 11 Game Designers (ESPN)

[Danimal]

Re: Robert Flores Goes One-On-One With EA Sports Madden NFL 11 Game Designers (ESPN)

If I answer this question aren't I admitting that it was done incorrectly?

I do feel like the direction we chose (server based) was the right direction to go. My personal theory on why the mode isn't used isn't because we lack a free agent system. I believe it has more to do with the nature of online and scheduling. Coordinating an entire league is hard work and as soon as one person loses interest, the rest of the league is sure to follow. If we can somehow crack the issue of scheduling and more flexible timing options, I think we might be on to something.

Phil

With all due respect I am going to disagree with your assessment. I know I'm not the target demo but i ran a M10 OF for 3 seasons with anywhere from 18-24 people involved, scheduling was not the biggest issue, nor was it free agency.

Lack of Sliders was the #1 issue in my opinion, the CPU didn't play a decent game and there was no way to fix this.

CPU Management AI was another issue, the CPU never filled their rosters out correctly. Every season I had to go in and make sure cpu teams had enough DB's, QB and Kickers to even field a team. It was not uncommon for a team to have 5 or 6 RB's and 2 CB's.

This was made an additional annoyance since it had to be done in game due to the uncertainty if the web site would work properly.

Lack of commish control was another big issue, the inability to simulate an individual game, reset it and sim it again if need be was an issue. In my league if someone couldn't make a game against another human, they dropped from the league so that owner could play the CPU. Adding the ability to go on Auto pilot would prevent this issue, switch it on the cpu plays for you until you switch it off.

I had a list of things that needed to be fixed and free agency and contracts weren't anywhere near the top. I'm sure you have survey data which supports your theory on why OF was an issue, but I wonder if the people pooled actually played OF.

You had to know going in that this was only going to be for the hard core players and that those gamers are going to demand more then a bare bones setup. The #1 complaint in my franchise was playing CPU games, no one wanted to do it.

If it's your teams goal to get OF out to the masses I think then you made the right choice in letting it go because I don't see how that ever happens. You would be better off expanding MUT to have some kind of ladder or league structure if that is what you're after.

Again this is just how I feel and is meant to be constructive, I'm not saying your theory is wrong I just don't think you're giving enough weight to who the audience for OF was (not what you thought it was) and the factor lack of options played into it's low usage.

[PhillyJim76]

Re: Robert Flores Goes One-On-One With EA Sports Madden NFL 11 Game Designers (ESPN)

Here's what I don't understand.

Even if it is perceived to be boring, why not have features like Restricted Free Agency, etc., in franchise mode? No one is ever going to say "oh my god, they put a crappy, boring restricted free agency in, i'm never going to buy this game again". However, someone could grow tired of the franchise mode lacking important aspects of the actual NFL and say, "you know what? i don't need to spend $60 on madden this year".

Another problem to me is, the AI for many things are just plain crazy. Why have a trading block (if there even is one this year) when the computer doesn't make trades? Things like that.

[Vikes1]

Re: Robert Flores Goes One-On-One With EA Sports Madden NFL 11 Game Designers (ESPN)

There was quite a bit of mention of the NHL game vs Madden in this thread, and the at least seemingly different approaches the two dev teams are taking.

I don't have anything particularly clever to say but...imo, NHL's recent success aren't due to any secret formula. I think it boils down to a few major things...1. Excellent gameplay, that does a very nice job of emulating the sport it represents. 2. They continue to deepen their already rather in depth franchise mode. 3. The dev team seems to be listening to their hardcore faithful fan base. By addressing reported AI issues, and adding features to their game asked for by the hardcore community.

This is not meant as an insult to the Madden team. Rather just my personal opinion of what I feel EA Canada is doing to have the NHL game considered as one of the very best sport games out there.

Again, only my opinion but....I don't believe the EA Canada team is dividing it's customer base into different camps...hardcore vs casual. I believe their just focused on making the most realistic playing game they can. And also a franchise mode that is attempted to be realistic in nature. Either you like it...or you don't. Seems to be working well for them.

[bigal093]

There was quite a bit of mention of the NHL game vs Madden in this thread, and the at least seemingly different approaches the two dev teams are taking.

I don't have anything particularly clever to say but...imo, NHL's recent success aren't due to any secret formula. I think it boils down to a few major things...1. Excellent gameplay, that does a very nice job of emulating the sport it represents. 2. They continue to deepen their already rather in depth franchise mode. 3. The dev team seems to be listening to their hardcore faithful fan base. By addressing reported AI issues, and adding features to their game asked for by the hardcore community.

This is not meant as an insult to the Madden team. Rather just my personal opinion of what I feel EA Canada is doing to have the NHL game considered as one of the very best sport games out there.

Again, only my opinion but....I don't believe the EA Canada team is dividing it's customer base into different camps...hardcore vs casual. I believe their just focused on making the most realistic playing game they can. And also a franchise mode that is attempted to be realistic in nature. Either you like it...or you don't. Seems to be working well for them.

i agree with what everyone is saying about NHL, but one thing worth noting is that madden sales are like 9x more than NHL. its a lot easier to improve sales that are like 750K than to improve upon sales numbers of 6,7,8,9 million you know? not saying thats the whole story, b/c fifa had similar numbers as madden and improved, but u know worth mentioning.

[bigal093]

Trust me, we get it. We'd love to be able to add each and every feature listed on feature lists from sites like this. Well...maybe not every feature but I think you get the point. The NFL season doesn't wait for us to finish our game and as such, we have a fixed amount of time to work with to get the game out by August every year. Each year we have to make very difficult decisions on which features to tackle now vs. putting off another year (or two). Many factors go into those decisions and in just about every case there will be an audience that doesn't like the decision. I get that frustration as a gamer myself.

Phil

Phil, i'd like to say that after watching the interview, i thought "typical EA crap" u know, just the generic catchphrases that you guys usually say in interviews. After reading through this thread, just something as simple as you being so open, and tolerent for that matter, to the community and their critisism really gives me hope, and more respect in general for Madden.

This is something that I did not see with madden in recent years. I mean there'd always be someone saying "we're doing what you want" but then they wouldn't. you addressed some specific issues without giving away madden 12's "secrets", and it really seemed like you read through people's responses and opinions and genuinely cared. now comes the hard part, that madden has struggled with for years. delivering on the hopes and promises you give people. So good luck with doing that, and giving us a great madden 12 and beyond.

[TombSong]

Re: Robert Flores Goes One-On-One With EA Sports Madden NFL 11 Game Designers (ESPN)

I am being very respectful when I say this. This is my POV of Tiburon/EA.
Some of yall are not gonna agree with it, but it don't make it any less MY POV till something they do changes my mind about them. If a forum is only for posting a view everyone agrees with then there is no such thing as a forum................

EA
You say you understand and you want to do things right. You say the cycle time does not allow you to do everything you want. Yall seem to be lately moved to add/remove features based on "data" yall see that no one else sees. Yall have access to resources that other developers can only dream about.

I think of all that and wonder how is it that smaller developers are able to produce more in a cycle than you guys. This is the 6th year of Madden on the new consoles and the sum of the content in this game is less than the sum of older games.

Formation audibles
Coverage shells
Multiple hit tackles
Move more than one person in motion
custom playbooks
Animations
Oline/Dline game play
Overall player to player interactions
presentation/Halftime show
AI
Use of ESPN
Online leagues(done first by other devs)

When you look at all the above and look at what yall have done the last 6 years it does not square with anything you say. How can these other development teams do more with less ?

Game review sites never stop and ask the question, "What can you do in the current Maddens, and what features are in the current maddens that are not done already and in most cases better in the older football games ?"

I challenge ANYONE on this board to lay the answer to that question out for all to see.

It is frustrating to have to read excuse after excuse why x,y,z cant be done, cant be fixed and yet see other dev's doing these things. A bunch of Europeans got drunk one night and decided to make a physics based football game. Do you realize now they are only 1 to 2 years away from making a completely better game than a franchise that's been out for 20+ years ?

Now everyone close there eyes and imagine. If 2K team still had the NFL license, would they not have most if not all of these things in their game now, that we are still trying to see come to fruition in madden ?

When people bring these things up it ain't to hurt feelings or cause trouble, its born out of genuine frustration. I look at what NBA2K11 is gonna be this year and it leaves your mouth watering at what we could be holding in our hands today if they could make a NFL football game.

Madden aint complete garbage but man it is not evolving. Its a year to year transition from one group of problems to another group of problems. What was working on year is half working, broken or completely removed the next. Exploits seem to be the only things that remain consistent, from nanos, to super leaping LB's, to rocket catching, and now pump fakes.

Not much is added from year to year which makes you wonder even more, how can so much get broken from year to year.

I got more to say, but don't even feel like it now...as I type I realize the pointlessness of it all.

[REDRZA]

Re: Robert Flores Goes One-On-One With EA Sports Madden NFL 11 Game Designers (ESPN)

There was quite a bit of mention of the NHL game vs Madden in this thread, and the at least seemingly different approaches the two dev teams are taking.

I don't have anything particularly clever to say but...imo, NHL's recent success aren't due to any secret formula. I think it boils down to a few major things...1. Excellent gameplay, that does a very nice job of emulating the sport it represents. 2. They continue to deepen their already rather in depth franchise mode. 3. The dev team seems to be listening to their hardcore faithful fan base. By addressing reported AI issues, and adding features to their game asked for by the hardcore community.

This is not meant as an insult to the Madden team. Rather just my personal opinion of what I feel EA Canada is doing to have the NHL game considered as one of the very best sport games out there.

Again, only my opinion but....I don't believe the EA Canada team is dividing it's customer base into different camps...hardcore vs casual. I believe their just focused on making the most realistic playing game they can. And also a franchise mode that is attempted to be realistic in nature. Either you like it...or you don't. Seems to be working well for them.

BINGO! EA Canada with NHL, and Sony San Diego simply "get it" in this regard. Simply make the most authentic looking, feeling, and playing game true to that sports and people will love it. Tiburon needs to stop trying to be everything to everyone. Just make a solid NFL game true to the sport.

[REDRZA]

Re: Robert Flores Goes One-On-One With EA Sports Madden NFL 11 Game Designers (ESPN)

Madden aint complete garbage but man it is not evolving. Its a year to year transition from one group of problems to another group of problems. What was working on year is half working, broken or completely removed the next. Exploits seem to be the only things that remain consistent, from nanos, to super leaping LB's, to rocket catching, and now pump fakes.

Again, exacty! Madden, and it core code or engine(s) has simply run it course. Each and ebery year that same code is tweaked ans tuned a bit different, yet its always the same game underneath. It's just outdated now, and needs new life. We need a better, smarter, overall game with better player interactions that use real physics, smarter AI that really adapts, we need a better game. This one has gotten stale.

[loccdogg26]

Re: Robert Flores Goes One-On-One With EA Sports Madden NFL 11 Game Designers (ESPN)

Does anyone know if Phil reads the other threads by chance? I've owned every madden game that has come out but I'm going to pass this year I think.

[rooney8]

Re: Robert Flores Goes One-On-One With EA Sports Madden NFL 11 Game Designers (ESPN)

I never believed those who said Madden was really a two year cycle with only big improvments coming every second year but to me rebuilding franchise mode alone seems like more work then all this years features so hard to think otherwise.

[Dewie12]

Re: Robert Flores Goes One-On-One With EA Sports Madden NFL 11 Game Designers (ESPN)

As for franchise mode...I don't think gamers want a real franchise mode.

For instance players ratings fluctuate year to year in Madden a great deal more than they do in any franchise mode ever created. How do people suggest this is handled? Are you okay with ratings jumping up and down by as much as 5 to 10 overall points?

Can gamers really contend with the intricacies of the NFL salary cap?

I understand EA's reasons for having a watered down franchise mode. Only a select few are using it.

I suggest EA starts to push for an ala carte approach to their games. Spend resources on more add on-external niches like Teambuilder. I would love to see a complete roster editor and most important a complete playbook editor. Charge $5 to $10 extra for these and have them be continuous products that evolve year to year outside of the "main" build of the game. Franchise mode could be one of these extras.

May cost the gamer more but I would pay a premium for these extra things I want.

[djordan]

Re: Robert Flores Goes One-On-One With EA Sports Madden NFL 11 Game Designers (ESPN)

I am being very respectful when I say this. This is my POV of Tiburon/EA.
Some of yall are not gonna agree with it, but it don't make it any less MY POV till something they do changes my mind about them. If a forum is only for posting a view everyone agrees with then there is no such thing as a forum................

EA
You say you understand and you want to do things right. You say the cycle time does not allow you to do everything you want. Yall seem to be lately moved to add/remove features based on "data" yall see that no one else sees. Yall have access to resources that other developers can only dream about.

I think of all that and wonder how is it that smaller developers are able to produce more in a cycle than you guys. This is the 6th year of Madden on the new consoles and the sum of the content in this game is less than the sum of older games.

Formation audibles
Coverage shells
Multiple hit tackles
Move more than one person in motion
custom playbooks
Animations
Oline/Dline game play
Overall player to player interactions
presentation/Halftime show
AI
Use of ESPN
Online leagues(done first by other devs)

When you look at all the above and look at what yall have done the last 6 years it does not square with anything you say. How can these other development teams do more with less ?

Game review sites never stop and ask the question, "What can you do in the current Maddens, and what features are in the current maddens that are not done already and in most cases better in the older football games ?"

I challenge ANYONE on this board to lay the answer to that question out for all to see.

It is frustrating to have to read excuse after excuse why x,y,z cant be done, cant be fixed and yet see other dev's doing these things. A bunch of Europeans got drunk one night and decided to make a physics based football game. Do you realize now they are only 1 to 2 years away from making a completely better game than a franchise that's been out for 20+ years ?

Now everyone close there eyes and imagine. If 2K team still had the NFL license, would they not have most if not all of these things in their game now, that we are still trying to see come to fruition in madden ?

When people bring these things up it ain't to hurt feelings or cause trouble, its born out of genuine frustration. I look at what NBA2K11 is gonna be this year and it leaves your mouth watering at what we could be holding in our hands today if they could make a NFL football game.

Madden aint complete garbage but man it is not evolving. Its a year to year transition from one group of problems to another group of problems. What was working on year is half working, broken or completely removed the next. Exploits seem to be the only things that remain consistent, from nanos, to super leaping LB's, to rocket catching, and now pump fakes.

Not much is added from year to year which makes you wonder even more, how can so much get broken from year to year.

I got more to say, but don't even feel like it now...as I type I realize the pointlessness of it all.

Great post!!!!!!!!!

[DaSmerg]

Re: Robert Flores Goes One-On-One With EA Sports Madden NFL 11 Game Designers (ESPN)

We didn't want to get specific with that blog because Madden 11 wasn't even out yet.

We're working hard to make meaningful changes to career modes as quickly as we can. It's a massive effort and I'm sure there will be immediate visibility to these changes in one product cycle. I'm not allowed to make promises at this early stage.

Phil

/me waves @ Phil.

It's always nice when developers let the fans into the "black box" that is the development of their favorite title/game. For this Madden fan it wasn't that long ago that fan contact was almost non-existent.

I just want to say thanks for coming to a place like OS to let us know what's going on. Keep it up and you should encourage the rest of the team to keep interacting.

That being said and with the pleasantries aside...

This story is getting old from you, i.e. the EA Sports Tiburon team, in regards to the development of Madden. This isn't meant as an attack or affront. This is one customer's opinion. I simply don't believe you.

Why? Because year after year now, since 2006, it's the same story. It's a short dev time, you have strict time lines, it's a complex game, new hardware to adjust to, my dog ate it. All with a sorry and a smile.

You, EA Sports Tiburon, keep asking me, die hard, hard core Madden fan, to suffer, to sacrifice yet year after year since 2006, I just don't see for what anymore. You, EA Sports Tiburon, keep re-releasing the same game. You can spin it anyway you want. Others will most assureedly disagree with me but this fan sees little difference, other than a few tweaks and some snazzy new graphics from the Madden game we were playing back on PS2.

The economy is not hurting Madden, it's not trending Madden sales down. The downward spike in the economy and the 2008 market correction is keeping it alive because capital is harder to come by. Capital that could be used to put together a competing product. Stealing market share is one of the simplest forms of sales. The marketing department should be able to understand that one.

I swear that if you guys announce a whole new direction with Madden, game play was your number one priority and that it is going to be rebuilt, from every line of code from the ground up, I will buy it and if it's good, I'll use every resource at my disposal to spread the good word, even if it doesn't have a franchise mode. For that, I'd be willing to continue to sacrifice, I'd be willing to continue to wait. I'd believe you, EA Sports Tiburon again.

[MJenness]

Re: Robert Flores Goes One-On-One With EA Sports Madden NFL 11 Game Designers (ESPN)

Phil, while I appreciate the fact you're interacting here again, something you said in an earlier post caught my attention and bothers me.

You said you guys were being open and honest when you announced that franchise hadn't been touched this year. HOWEVER, you waited until JUST prior to E3 to make this announcement. If you wanted to be open and honest, why wasn't this disclosed MUCH earlier in the development cycle? You clearly KNEW even going into this cycle that this was your plan, but you chose to wait until there was sufficient buzz and hype created to drop the bomb. Marketing at its best (or worst).

Seems to me you were simply covering your backside, as I am sure you were aware of the backlash that would occur had that announcement come from someone else when the game was played at E3.

And yeah, the "short development cycle" excuse has worn too thin for me. As another poster said, OTHER companies (or even other EA titles) don't seem to have this ongoing time restraint issue as Tiburon does.

Want to make Madden good, and see sales increase? Simple...make Madden mirror what we see on Sunday as much as humanly possible, period. It's working well for other franchises, I don't know WHY this is so difficult for Tiburon to see. Stop trying to reinvent the wheel...just copy what you see when you watch an NFL game. You have almost unlimited access to them, more resources than ANY other developer, the time for excuses is long gone.

You surely must see from the boards (and not only here) and the sales that what you're doing just is not working...time to make a change.

[PantherBeast_OS]

Re: Robert Flores Goes One-On-One With EA Sports Madden NFL 11 Game Designers (ESPN)

Phil, while I appreciate the fact you're interacting here again, something you said in an earlier post caught my attention and bothers me.

You said you guys were being open and honest when you announced that franchise hadn't been touched this year. HOWEVER, you waited until JUST prior to E3 to make this announcement. If you wanted to be open and honest, why wasn't this disclosed MUCH earlier in the development cycle? You clearly KNEW even going into this cycle that this was your plan, but you chose to wait until there was sufficient buzz and hype created to drop the bomb. Marketing at its best (or worst).

Seems to me you were simply covering your backside, as I am sure you were aware of the backlash that would occur had that announcement come from someone else when the game was played at E3.

And yeah, the "short development cycle" excuse has worn too thin for me. As another poster said, OTHER companies (or even other EA titles) don't seem to have this ongoing time restraint issue as Tiburon does.

Want to make Madden good, and see sales increase? Simple...make Madden mirror what we see on Sunday as much as humanly possible, period. It's working well for other franchises, I don't know WHY this is so difficult for Tiburon to see. Stop trying to reinvent the wheel...just copy what you see when you watch an NFL game. You have almost unlimited access to them, more resources than ANY other developer, the time for excuses is long gone.

You surely must see from the boards (and not only here) and the sales that what you're doing just is not working...time to make a change.

Well you can't just blame Phil for not coming out way earlier and saying we ain't doing nothing to franchise mode this year. Even tho Phil is head man at EA. Phil has people over him that tells him what to do and they are the marketing department. They are the ones that decides when Ian or Phil or Josh can says things about what they have done or what they are doing. I'm sure if Phil had that chance to tell us way earlier before E3 about not doing anything to franchise this year then he would of done that. But the Marketing department just doesn't allow him to do that but when they are ready to allow him to release info. I agree it sucks having to wait for that kind of info right before E3. But there is nothing Phil could really do.