Robert Flores Goes One-On-One With EA Sports Madden NFL 11 Game Designers (ESPN)

[udungoofed]

Re: Robert Flores Goes One-On-One With EA Sports Madden NFL 11 Game Designers (ESPN)

Phil, any information regarding a patch soon? Anything at all?

The ease in scoring/gaining yards is just murdering the fun out of my OF. We're only running about 80-90 plays a game and 20+ teams are posting 30+ points a week.

There's just no excitement in scoring a TD anymore because it comes so easy.

[roadman]

Re: Robert Flores Goes One-On-One With EA Sports Madden NFL 11 Game Designers (ESPN)

Im not being sarcastic...the proof is in the gameplay..can you not piece 2+2 together?...the only thing that changes from year to year IS the advertisements...gameplay issues and franchise mode go untouched or remain broken altogether..what other explanation is there for such a blatant oversight and lack of concern about the gameplay, while increasing the aspects of presentation every year (procuring music licenses from music bands, procuring advertising and brand placement contracts etc.)

So, adding a locomotion system, adding a catching debug tool for leaping completions and sidleline catches and adding good run blocking is all presentation issues and has nothing to do with game play?

No need to go through each one and blast away at them, they are game play additions.

[roadman]

Re: Robert Flores Goes One-On-One With EA Sports Madden NFL 11 Game Designers (ESPN)

Phil, any information regarding a patch soon? Anything at all?

The ease in scoring/gaining yards is just murdering the fun out of my OF. We're only running about 80-90 plays a game and 20+ teams are posting 30+ points a week.

There's just no excitement in scoring a TD anymore because it comes so easy.

One is coming around the start of the NFL season and the other one's timetable is near the end of September.

Ian said it in last weeks blog.

[udungoofed]

Re: Robert Flores Goes One-On-One With EA Sports Madden NFL 11 Game Designers (ESPN)

One is coming around the start of the NFL season and the other one's timetable is near the end of September.

Ian said it in last weeks blog.

Thank you.

[ryan36]

Re: Robert Flores Goes One-On-One With EA Sports Madden NFL 11 Game Designers (ESPN)

Guys , constructive criticism is fine. I think a little secret is that EA WANTS the game to sell well, and listens to feedback. If you're addressing Phil (or any dev) directly, don't be personal, and don't say things that can be construed as personal attacks.

ONLY WARNING

[harlequin782]

Re: Robert Flores Goes One-On-One With EA Sports Madden NFL 11 Game Designers (ESPN)

So, adding a locomotion system, adding a catching debug tool for leaping completions and sidleline catches and adding good run blocking is all presentation issues and has nothing to do with game play?

No need to go through each one and blast away at them, they are game play additions.

yes they are gameplay additions that I truly believe were tacked on at the end of the dev cycle as an afterthought...this is why they are so poorly integrated, because they werent a focal point of the production cycle to begin with..the gameplay elements you mentioned are promotional talking points to sell a product.

But ok, as a consumer who has already wasted my $60 on Madden 2011 for XBOX 360, I feel entitled to express my discontent a bit..so lets actually get into the dysfunctional nature of the gameplay. The actual physics and execution of the locomotion system is down right pathetic. Runners look as if they are being pulled along on a string with no weight to them, instead of being propelled by force stemming from the momentum created by their footsteps. 90% of the time, players, particularly defensive players, are out of balance (not off balance, but out of balance - there is a difference)...motion shifting is still rampant, broken tackles are prevalent to a level of absolute absurdity. Polygonal clipping is still rampant. There are no true to name longsnappers included in the game. Suction catching, suction tackles, and suction blocking still plague the gameplay. The strategy pad was just a downright bad idea. Ratings and the predetermined animation sequence dictates outcome of gameplay rather than coaching and strategy. I can go on and on...but the worse part to me is that all of this is occuring on a current gen iteration of the game. Whereas, although I did buy both 2k4 and 2k5, Im not some 2k5 fanboy who still lives in 2005. I dont constantly compare madden to 2k5, and I acknowledge that 2k4/2k5 had its flaws. But I DO expect madden to evolve and improve to a level that is at least equivalent in physicality and body mechanics to a game made half a decade ago. I think thats a reasonable expectation.

But the reality is that, because football is a game of inches, Physics are the most important aspect of football...ask any coach and he will tell you that there is a colossal difference between having a ball carrier who consistently falls forward when being tackled, and one who is consistently being knocked back or knocked to the side when he is tackled. And the truth is that the physics of madden are almost completely broken. Yet, as a smoke and mirrors tactic to compensate for the outdated physics EA takes the outcomes which should be dictated by coaching and strategy and reallocates the control of those outcomes to ratings, and predetermined animation sequences.

Even though player ratings may matter to some extent, once you get to the NFL level, football isnt about who's bigger or who's stronger or who's ratings are higher...at that level football is mostly and foremost about whichever coach can utilize his team's strengths and exploit the opponent's weaknesses. For instance, a team that has a weak o-line or a weak running game doesnt mean that they shouldnt be able to run the ball at all. That just means that linemen would have to cut block rather than block head up..or that the coach must call more outside run plays...but in madden, none of the strategy behind playcalling matters because ratings and automated animation sequences dictate everything - to the extent that basically what you have is just a game full of triggered animation sequences with a couple of inconsequential coaching options thrown in.

What people must remember here is that these are National Football League professional players. That means that NO players should be overly dominating and unable to be stopped at all. For instance, if a user has coached his player properly, and has placed them in the position to shut a play down, then the tackle should be made on the ball carrier and the play should be shut down..period..But instead, in madden, it doesnt matter how you coach your team, or what position you put your players in to break up a play, if the cpu has been programmed to use the "break tackle" animation or the "ball carrier fall forward while other players tumbleweed and roll around uselessly around the ball carrier" animation, then at that point coaching is irrelevant. If sloppy, unclean, automated mocap animation (tumble weeding, body morphing, poor collision detection, force fields, one man singular hit tackles etc.) is going to dictate the outcome of gameplay rather than body mechanics, body position, and physics, then there is really is no point in playing the game at all. You can just sim the game, and the outcome will be the same.

To give credit where credit is due: Did EA add a few "new gameplay features" as they do every year? sure, but other than the sideline catches *which admittedly look and feel incredible*, other than that, every other new gameplay element is either poorly integrated, or poorly executed to begin with...thats my opinion after buying the game and experiencing its gameplay.

[roadman]

Re: Robert Flores Goes One-On-One With EA Sports Madden NFL 11 Game Designers (ESPN)

yes they are gameplay additions that I truly believe were tacked on at the end of the dev cycle as an afterthought...this is why they are so poorly integrated, because they werent a focal point of the production cycle to begin with..the gameplay elements you mentioned are promotional talking points to sell a product.

But ok, as a consumer who has already wasted my $60 on Madden 2011 for XBOX 360 this year's game, I feel entitled to express my discontent a bit..so lets actually get into the dysfunctional nature of the gameplay. The actual physics and execution of the locomotion system is down right pathetic. Runners look as if they are being pulled along on a string with no weight to them, instead of than being propelled by force stemming from the momentum created by their footsteps. 90% of the time, players, particularly defensive players are out of balance (not off balance, but out of balance - there is a difference)...motion shifting is still rampant, broken tackles are prevalent to a level of absolute absurdity. Polygonal clipping is still rampant. There are no true to name longsnappers included in the game. Suction catching, suction tackles, and suction blocking still plague the gameplay. The strategy pad was just a downright bad idea. Ratings and the predetermined animation sequence dictates outcome of gameplay rather than coaching and strategy. I can go on and on.

But the reality is that Physics are the most important aspect of football...ask any coach and he will tell you that there is a colossal difference between having a ball carrier who consistently falls forward when being tackled, and one who is being knocked back or knocked to the side when being tackled. And the truth is that the physics of madden are almost completely broken. Yet, as a smoke and mirrors tactic to compensate for the outdated physics EA takes the outcomes which should be dictated by coaching and strategy and reallocates the control of those outcomes to ratings, and predetermined animation sequences.

Even though player ratings may matter to some extent, once you get to the NFL level, football isnt about who's bigger or who's stronger or who's ratings are higher...at that level football is mostly and foremost about whichever coach can utilize his team's strengths and exploit the opponent's weaknesses. For instance, a team that has a weak o-line or a weak running game doesnt mean that they shouldnt be able to run the ball at all. That just means that linemen would have to cut block rather than block head up..or that the coach must call more outside run plays...but in madden, none of the strategy behind playcalling matters because ratings and predetermined animation sequences dictate everything - to the extent that basically what you have is just a game full of triggered animation sequences with a couple of inconsequential coaching options thrown in.

What people must remember here is that these are National Football League professional players. That means that NO players should be overly dominating and unable to be stopped at all. For instance, if a user has coached his player properly, and has placed them in the position to shut a play down, then the tackle should be made on the ball carrier and the play should be shut down..period..But instead, in madden, it doesnt matter how you coach your team, or what position you put your players in to break up a play, if the cpu has been programmed to use the "break tackle" animation or the "ball carrier fall forward while other players tumbleweed and roll around uselessly around the ball carrier" animation, then at that point coaching is irrelevant. If sloppy, unclean, automated mocap animation (tumble weeding, body morphing, poor collision detection, force fields, one man singular hit tackles etc.) is going to dictate the outcome of gameplay rather than body mechanics, body position, and physics, then there is really is no point in playing the game at all. You can just sim the game, and the outcome will be the same.

To give credit where credit is due: Did EA add a few "new gameplay features" as they do every year? sure, but other than the sideline catches *which admittedly look and feel incredible*, other than that, every other new gameplay element is either poorly integrated, or poorly executed to begin with...thats my opinion after buying the game and experiencing its gameplay.

I agree with you on a few points and disagree with a few others. The points I agree with is the locomotion greatly affected the defense and Ian admitted it did. I've seen it in replays as well. I also agree with the game planning vs ratings matter that you brought up.

I disagree with you not mentioning how well run blocking is this year besides the sideline catches. This was a big overhaul from years past and it shows. WR's are now blocking downfield. Also, sliders do help minimize the breaking tackle phenom that they are looking to patch. Lowering break tackles and increasing the tackle sliders helps minimize the break tackle situation.(doesn't fix it entirely) Of course, this doesn't help people who play online only or don't want to fiddle with sliders out of the box.

[rooney8]

Re: Robert Flores Goes One-On-One With EA Sports Madden NFL 11 Game Designers (ESPN)

'When' we decide to announce a detail does not change the fact that we did announce this fact well in advance (2 months) of product release. I would say that my statement is true. We announced it just before E3 simply because we felt like our community was expecting a Franchise announcement @ E3. The news would not have been out of the bag @ E3 because we had our game modes locked out in that particular build. The more likely scenerio is that the information would have been out there in late July when we start sending out review code.

We don't typically announce 'bad stuff' at all during our PR calendar and only chose to do this after reading the forums. It was clear people were expecting changes that we were not going to deliver on. It's really as simple as that.

Phil

I too figured it was to time the bad PR rather than be honest. Thanks for the honesty it is appreciated.

[harlequin782]

Re: Robert Flores Goes One-On-One With EA Sports Madden NFL 11 Game Designers (ESPN)

I agree with you on a few points and disagree with a few others. The points I agree with is the locomotion greatly affected the defense and Ian admitted it did. I've seen it in replays as well. I also agree with the game planning vs ratings matter that you brought up.

I disagree with you not mentioning how well run blocking is this year besides the sideline catches. This was a big overhaul from years past and it shows. WR's are now blocking downfield. Also, sliders do help minimize the breaking tackle phenom that they are looking to patch. Lowering break tackles and increasing the tackle sliders helps minimize the break tackle situation.(doesn't fix it entirely) Of course, this doesn't help people who play online only or don't want to fiddle with sliders out of the box.

But thats just it man...Your idea works well in theory, and it probably works well for many people in practice..but the way I think of it is: This is a "next gen" football title...If I wanted to build the automated logistics of my own game, I'd just buy a literal simulation game with nothing more than x's and O's darting across the field... but this is supposed to be a game on consoles that have everything from motion sensing technology (why isnt this being used more?), to RAM that is specifically dedicated to graphics. And the real problem, as I see it, is that the slider sets dont represent EA Tib's hallmark slogan, which is that: if its in the game, its in the game or - if you see it on sundays, you'll see it in the game.. Instead, the solution to the problems that Im hearing is that, "if its in the game, it SHOULD BE in the game, but if it isnt, you can try to put it in the game yourself by adjusting your sliders."

I think madden is doing themselves an injustice by trying to target too broad of an audience. What they've got to realize is that they are compromising true authentic football, in the name of appeasement for a few casual weekend players who MIGHT play one season in Franchise mode or lollygag around with virtual trainer or something. But those are people who most likely dont even know real football anyway. People who do know and appreciate true football need an accurate representation of the sport from the only franchise that has the NFL license. I mean, here's my deal: you (the proverbial you, not literally you) either want to make consumers satisfied or you dont..you either want to make a good NFL football game or you dont. If you dont want to make a good football game or if you dont care about making a good NFL football game, then you can focus on making as many consumers satisfied as humanly possible. You can target the casual gamer audience, the female gamers, the pet gamers, the children gamers or whoever else. But if you truly want to satisfy the customers who enjoy the NFL, and seek to get an NFL likeness from video gameplay, then as the ONLY NFL LICENSED FOOTBALL VIDEO GAME some things need to be done to ensure that those people who DO know football, and who CAN see the differences that coaching and strategy make, will enjoy the game you put out..and that the game they play wont just be an automated version dictated by ratings and triggered animations. Ill openly state that, on All pro, the game can be pretty enjoyable, even with its flaws..but All Madden simply takes control from the user/coach and renders body mechanics, body/player positioning, or physics obsolete. And then All Madden makes outcomes completely contingent on the cpu's statistical probability algorithms based on player ratings. I just feel that that is an oversimplification of professional football and that there should be more to professional football than that.

[roadman]

Re: Robert Flores Goes One-On-One With EA Sports Madden NFL 11 Game Designers (ESPN)

But thats just it man...Your idea works well in theory, and it probably works well for many people in practice..but the way I think of it is: This is a "next gen" football title...If I wanted to build the automated logistics of my own game, I'd just buy a literal simulation game with nothing more than x's and O's darting across the field... but this is supposed to be a game on consoles that have everything from motion sensing technology (why isnt this being used more?), to RAM that is specifically dedicated to graphics. And the real problem, as I see it, is that the slider sets dont represent EA Tib's hallmark slogan, which is that: if its in the game, its in the game or - if you see it on sundays, you'll see it in the game.. Instead, the solution to the problems that Im hearing is that, "if its in the game, it SHOULD BE in the game, but if it isnt, you can try to put it in the game yourself by adjusting your sliders."

I think madden is doing themselves an injustice by trying to target too broad of an audience. What they've got to realize is that they are compromising true authentic football, in the name of appeasement for a few casual weekend players who MIGHT play one season in Franchise mode or lollygag around with virtual trainer or something. But those are people who most likely dont even know real football anyway. People who do know and appreciate true football need an accurate representation of the sport from the only franchise that has the NFL license. I mean, here's my deal: you (the proverbial you, not literally you) either want to make consumers satisfied or you dont..you either want to make a good NFL football game or you dont. If you dont want to make a good football game of if you dont care about making a good NFL football game, then you can focus on making as many consumers satisfied as humanly possible. You can target the casual gamer audience, the female gamers, the pet gamers, the children gamers or whoever else. But if you truly want to satisfy the customers who enjoy the NFL, and seek to get an NFL likeness from video gameplay, then as the ONLY NFL LICENSED FOOTBALL VIDEO GAME some things need to be done to ensure that those people who DO know football, and who CAN see the differences that coaching and strategy make, will enjoy the game you put out..and that the game they play wont just be an automated version dictated by ratings and triggered animations. Ill openly state that, on All pro, the game can be pretty enjoyable, even with its flaws..but All Madden simply takes control from the user/coach and renders body mechanics, body/player positioning, or physics obsolete. And then All Madden makes outcomes completely contingent on the cpu's statistical probability algorithms based on player ratings. I just feel that that is an oversimplification of professional football and that there should be more to professional football than that.

Addressing your first paragraph, there isn't a sports game on LG or NG(whatever the catch phrase is) that I haven't tinkered with sliders. I want the game to be as close as to the players real life stats as I possibly can. Without sliders, I can't accomplish that. So, my thing is, for me, it works in theory and practice.

I agree pretty much with your second paragraph. I just will never try All-Everything as I know it gives the CPU jumps in overall ability.

In closing, I feel the direction of Madden is headed in a more sim direction vs the 07-09. I felt like those were tourney track meets.

[harlequin782]

Re: Robert Flores Goes One-On-One With EA Sports Madden NFL 11 Game Designers (ESPN)

I disagree with you not mentioning how well run blocking is this year besides the sideline catches. This was a big overhaul from years past and it shows. WR's are now blocking downfield.

I wanted to address this in particular since you mentioned it. I agree with you to some extent. On All Pro, the running game feels very close to perfect...blocking assignments are adhered to, runningbacks hit the hole pretty well, the user controls are pretty tight etc. On all pro, the running game is pretty rewarding. HOWEVER, on all madden this simply isnt the case...I can upload footage to any given media sharing website to show what Im speaking of. I have LITERALLY had my OT not lay a single finger on the D-end. My offensive tackle literally, didnt even try...Im not saying that he just didnt block well..Im saying he actually stood up out of his stance once the ball was snapped, and just watched the defender blow by him to massacre my running back...the OT just didnt even bother...AND it happens consistently..AND he's the best offensive lineman on my team.

This is inexcusable to me. And it came to my attention because I had noticed that I couldnt even get out of the backfield with my running backs who are actually speed backs. So I was trying to see who was blowing their blocking assignments or why we were getting demolished up front. I ran back the replay, and INEVITABLY, in addition to the rest of my o-line just getting put on roller skates and obliterated, one or two o-lineman will simply not even bother. Just wont even attempt to block the defensive player.

Im not going to try to justify this poor programming and oversight in the production pipeline with some drawn out explanation about the production cycle or whatever else the excuse of the day is.. Perhaps I could adjust sliders, or perhaps I could play on All pro all the time. But the fact of the matter is that this sort of thing shouldnt even be happening in an NFL licensed football game....it doesnt even look right on screen.

[djordan]

Re: Robert Flores Goes One-On-One With EA Sports Madden NFL 11 Game Designers (ESPN)

You state this as though it is a fact. Where's your data to back up this allegation? I know for certain this isn't true but would take another look at our priorities if you had data to back this up. Or the likely scenerio is that you are being sarcastic. You need to put a little smiley at the end of your post if you are going to go that route.

Phil

But we as a community state to the developers FACTS that certain features are still missing after 5 YEARS!!! We mention FACTS such as why there isn't DB shade inside or outside when there was on PS2 version. We mention FACTS such as how Halftime show wasn't improved even though we were told it was going to be for Madden 11.FACTS such as how we still have poor player interaction and gang tackles. We mention facts every year and nothing is done!!!

I know plenty of people feel the same way as me.

[roadman]

Re: Robert Flores Goes One-On-One With EA Sports Madden NFL 11 Game Designers (ESPN)

I wanted to address this in particular since you mentioned it. I agree with you to some extent. On All Pro, the running game feels very close to perfect...blocking assignments are adhered to, runningbacks hit the hole pretty well, the user controls are pretty tight etc. On all pro, the running game is pretty rewarding. HOWEVER, on all madden this simply isnt the case...I can upload footage to any given media sharing website to show what Im speaking of. I have LITERALLY had my OT not lay a single finger on the D-end. My offensive tackle literally, didnt even try...Im not saying that he just didnt block well..Im saying he actually stood up out of his stance once the ball was snapped, and just watched the defender blow by him to massacre my running back...the OT just didnt even bother...AND it happens consistently..AND he's the best offensive lineman on my team.

This is inexcusable to me. And it came to my attention because I had noticed that I couldnt even get out of the backfield with my running backs who are actually speed backs. So I was trying to see who was blowing their blocking assignments or why we were getting demolished up front. I ran back the replay, and INEVITABLY, in addition to the rest of my o-line just getting put on roller skates and obliterated, one or two o-lineman will simply not even bother. Just wont even attempt to block the defensive player.

Im not going to try to justify this poor programming and oversight in the production pipeline with some drawn out explanation about the production cycle or whatever else the excuse of the day is.. Perhaps I could adjust sliders, or perhaps I could play on All pro all the time. But the fact of the matter is that this sort of thing shouldnt even be happening in an NFL licensed football game....it doesnt even look right on screen.

Have you played on ALL-Madden on previous Maddens?

I won't touch that level with a 10 ft pole.

Madden is tuned to play close to the NFL on ALL Pro. Experienced users who want a challenge will play on All-Madden.

It's been know that ALL-Madden ratings are in favor of the CPU. Like you said, if you want things on equal footing on All-Madden, then you adjust your sliders up or the All-Madden sliders down.

[roadman]

Re: Robert Flores Goes One-On-One With EA Sports Madden NFL 11 Game Designers (ESPN)

But we as a community state to you developers FACTS that certain features are still missing after 5 YEARS!!! We mention FACTS such as why there isn't DB shade inside or outside when there was on PS2 version. We mention FACTS such as how Halftime show wasn't improved even though we were told it was going to be for Madden 11. We mention facts every year and nothing is done!!!

I know alot of people feel the same way as me.

Here is another fact. Someone begged and pleaded to get hand towels in the game and they did for Madden 10.

[djordan]

Re: Robert Flores Goes One-On-One With EA Sports Madden NFL 11 Game Designers (ESPN)

Here is another fact. Someone begged and pleaded to get hand towels in the game and they did for Madden 10.

LOL. I was begging since Madden 2004 man