NBA Elite 11 OS Exclusive Video: Milwaukee Bucks @ New York Knicks

[michaeljordanjr]

Re: NBA Elite 11 OS Exclusive Video: Milwaukee Bucks @ New York Knicks

its not about animations taking over the game, its about being accurate to the sport. In basket ball people get head faked because they attempt to anticipate the shot or move, so an animation that requires that you que it a little bit early would not be unrealistic.

If u want to give users options add branching windows so it can be tapped or held for the appropriate action.

In live 10 you could tap it to just raise your arm, not sure if that did anything to contest.

[Da_Czar]

Re: NBA Elite 11 OS Exclusive Video: Milwaukee Bucks @ New York Knicks

I've posted this before, but I'll post it again. The choices we made about the jumping animations, specifically the minimal gather, was deliberate.

We wanted to nail the proper feeling of playing basketball in real life. Unfortunately in video games the anticipation of the user is completely lost on the game, so you have two options.

1. Make the game feel less responsive and have the anticipation built into the action. Makes for a good looking game, but feels wrong and the user has to compensate by performing their actions early.

2. Go with something that is visually unrealistic by reducing or eliminating the anticipation portion of the move. This makes the game look less realistic, but gives you a more satisfying feel (imho) that better matches the experience you get when playing ball in real life.

Clearly, we chose option two. There is no right or wrong answer, both have advantages and disadvantages. Some people will like one more than the other.

But it's not fair to judge the game solely based on the look which is the part we deliberately sacrificed, without trying the game and feeling the good part (the responsiveness and gameplay balance).

(I know you've played t 23, but many here haven't so that part is directed more to them).

Reanimator with respect that is wrong man. Just wrong. In real life you do have to anticipate to get a block. Not to just challenge a shot but to block it you have to anticipate it in real life unless you have a matchup advantage.

There is NO WAY "that better matches the experience you get in real life"

No way.

In one play durant was standing straight up with his arms high the offensive player goes to shoot the ball and you mean to tell me it's more realistic for durant to go striaght up and get that block ?

How then would you or can your game account for close combat one on one situations ? Your giving the defense an unfair advantage. How can you balance that ?

[sportyguyfl31]

Re: NBA Elite 11 OS Exclusive Video: Milwaukee Bucks @ New York Knicks

its not about animations taking over the game, its about being accurate to the sport. In basket ball people get head faked because they attempt to anticipate the shot or move, so an animation that requires that you que it a little bit early would not be unrealistic.

If u want to give users options add branching windows so it can be tapped or held for the appropriate action.

Gotcha. I misunderstood what you were saying.

[rEAnimator]

Re: NBA Elite 11 OS Exclusive Video: Milwaukee Bucks @ New York Knicks

Actually in real basketball you have to anticipate your opponents next move to effectively counter it. So option one would have been the most accurate one.

Right, but my point is that the game engine doesn't know what you are anticipating in your head.

In real life, much of that is subconscious. If you're playing a game and are forced to move that subconscious thought into your consciousness it ends up feeling unnatural.

Also, some actions we allow more of the anticipation (like shooting for example) because the control scheme allows for it to feel natural (up then release) and because it is the offensive action.

The defensive action needs to respond, so needs to be tuned a little more to the "unrealistic" side to get the balance right and the feel to remain natural.

defensive movement is somewhere in the middle. We need you to anticipate and be able to guess wrong, but we don't want you to lag too far behind or defending would be impossible.

This wasn't a simple process by any means. A lot of thought and testing went into every aspect of the game.

The overriding goal was to make the best feeling basketball game that best represents the feeling of playing in real life.

You cannot understand that until you've played the game (and got used to the controls).

If it's not the kind of game you want to play that's fine. But don't dismiss it without having experienced the part we put all the effort into.

[Da_Czar]

Re: NBA Elite 11 OS Exclusive Video: Milwaukee Bucks @ New York Knicks

I think what he is trying to get at, is have the action dictated more by the user.

The user is the one who is going to have to anticipate, rather then an animation sequence taking over the game.

That is just it though fly the user doesn't have to he can react to what your doing and still get the block that is just not possible. There is always a delay between the offense and defense because the defense never knows when the offensive player will move unless he anticipates... This is wrong.

[rEAnimator]

Re: NBA Elite 11 OS Exclusive Video: Milwaukee Bucks @ New York Knicks

Why would you guys do this, and not get the best of both worlds? Pointing out the game's major lack of authenticity before the product even hits the market? Come on now, this is ridiculous! From the 2 videos that you guys have shown use yourselves, the game looks terrible, and does not 'appear' to play well. I know you said that we need to play it to get an 'accurate representation' but if that is the case, and predominately 90% of the comments on your 2 videos have been negative, why even come out with them in the first place? We are essentially paying $60 for NBA Jam, and getting this for free.

We've shown a lot of different footage.

We've shown this 5v5 footage with an emphasis on plays and realistic pacing.

We've shown how the physics is dynamic and there are no two player animations.

We've shown awesome highlight moments that make the game exciting, and how you'll rarely see the same thing twice. A missed putback followed by a second putback, when have you seen that in previous versions of live? Never.

This is a completely different experience, and that is what the videos are meant to showcase.

There is enough evidence out there for people to believe what we've been saying.

Bundling Jam is meant to get more people to try the game. It's a sign of confidence, not weakness.

You only get to rename your product once. You can really only change your control scheme once. This year is huge for us.

We know what we have is special. We know what we have is different.

All of these things (Jam, name, controls) are not marketing gimicks. They are things you can only do once, and we're doing them all at one time because this is the year we want people to try the game.

[Da_Czar]

Re: NBA Elite 11 OS Exclusive Video: Milwaukee Bucks @ New York Knicks

Right, but my point is that the game engine doesn't know what you are anticipating in your head.

In real life, much of that is subconscious. If you're playing a game and are forced to move that subconscious thought into your consciousness it ends up feeling unnatural.

Also, some actions we allow more of the anticipation (like shooting for example) because the control scheme allows for it to feel natural (up then release) and because it is the offensive action.

The defensive action needs to respond, so needs to be tuned a little more to the "unrealistic" side to get the balance right and the feel to remain natural.

defensive movement is somewhere in the middle. We need you to anticipate and be able to guess wrong, but we don't want you to lag too far behind or defending would be impossible.

This wasn't a simple process by any means. A lot of thought and testing went into every aspect of the game.

The overriding goal was to make the best feeling basketball game that best represents the feeling of playing in real life.

You cannot understand that until you've played the game (and got used to the controls).

If it's not the kind of game you want to play that's fine. But don't dismiss it without having experienced the part we put all the effort into.

Again to me this is a faulty arugment. Basket ball is based on offensive movement defensive player reaction... Not simultaneous movement

""The defensive action needs to respond, so needs to be tuned a little more to the "unrealistic" side to get the balance right and the feel to remain natural""

There is nothing natural about the defense leaving the floor after me and beating me to the spot that is a defensive advantage. Otherwise you wouldn't be able score with someone right in your face.


The defense has to react. If they are allowed to be a step behind and still meet me at the same place in the air that is an unfair advantage to the defense.

[Jano]

Re: NBA Elite 11 OS Exclusive Video: Milwaukee Bucks @ New York Knicks

It makes sense from a gameplay standpoint rEAnimator especially considering how limiting things probably were when you guys got rid of the two player anims and brought in RTP. You had to make some sacrifices for the way the game is going to be played.

I just hope that the fake jumping is gone next year and replaced with a realisitic action. That second year under you guys belt should allow you to figure out some ways to make sure the game can recognize more actions.

I can understand where you coming from because choosing option 1 may have lead to some frustrating things happening on defense. But overall though the goal next year should be increasing sig animations and adding in even more contextual ones (this is where you're really hurting in Elite).

The contextual ones are going to be key that's where a lot of the unrealistic stuff is coming from imo. A lot of the stuff you talked about (unconscious and conscious) is stuff that will be possible by adding in more contextual ones imo.

I can now see how much of a luxury those two player anims were last year for you guys. They allowed you to account for me actions on the court. This game will be interesting to play in a couple of years if you guys continue to build your contextual animation database.

Almost everything will be contextual rather then two player based, And that will lead to a game that is great to control and look at.

[Behindshadows]

Re: NBA Elite 11 OS Exclusive Video: Milwaukee Bucks @ New York Knicks

Again to me this is a faulty arugment. Basket ball is based on offensive movement defensive player reaction... Not simultaneous movement

""The defensive action needs to respond, so needs to be tuned a little more to the "unrealistic" side to get the balance right and the feel to remain natural""

There is nothing natural about the defense leaving the floor after me and beating me to the spot that is a defensive advantage. Otherwise you wouldn't be able score with someone right in your face.


The defense has to react. If they are allowed to be a step behind and still meet me at the same place in the air that is an unfair advantage to the defense.

What's good Fam!!! Honestly it's a broken objective! I understand what your trying to say, and I understand at this stage it isn't going to get fixed. Even before the current developers were on Elite 11, the animations were an issue from Day 1 of Live 06 and never improved.

No sense in us, continuously beating a deceased pony. In the end we lose, and we are going to get what we are going to get!

I more than anyone else wanted this Elite 11 to greatly succeed, I even PM a few people and wanted to market it free for them. But man I can imagine how many people would slap me for doing so.

As a Live/2k contributor yearly, I'm seriously torn up right now! I feel more betrayed than hurt.

[rEAnimator]

Re: NBA Elite 11 OS Exclusive Video: Milwaukee Bucks @ New York Knicks

Reanimator with respect that is wrong man. Just wrong. In real life you do have to anticipate to get a block. Not to just challenge a shot but to block it you have to anticipate it in real life unless you have a matchup advantage.

There is NO WAY "that better matches the experience you get in real life"

No way.

In one play durant was standing straight up with his arms high the offensive player goes to shoot the ball and you mean to tell me it's more realistic for durant to go striaght up and get that block ?

How then would you or can your game account for close combat one on one situations ? Your giving the defense an unfair advantage. How can you balance that ?

You can read my other post on how I describe the spectrum of tradeoffs we made across different features.

But specifically to your question...in real life if you are standing in front of someone who has the ball you will make very small adjustments to your posture or position as you watch what he does.

It's not a simple as thinking "I'm going to jump now" and then just doing it. You're constantly making changes in anticipation of what you think you are going to do next. Preparing your body for it, constantly changing based on the situation.

In a video game, we can't do that because we don't know what the user is planning on doing.

So in real life you may have crouched down a little bit in anticipation of wanting to jump.

That let's you get off the ground quicker.

In our game we choose to give you that ability by pretending your virtual player had anticipated properly and allowing you to get off the ground as if you had.

There is still the anticipation aspect that causes beats and pump fakes and all that.

I was referring more to anticipation as a technical animation term. Probably shouldn't have done that as I can see now how it could be misunderstood.

If you're interested:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12_basic_principles_of_animation

[k beast]

terrible live graphics remind me of 2001

[Playmakers]

Re: NBA Elite 11 OS Exclusive Video: Milwaukee Bucks @ New York Knicks

I've posted this before, but I'll post it again. The choices we made about the jumping animations, specifically the minimal gather, was deliberate.

We wanted to nail the proper feeling of playing basketball in real life. Unfortunately in video games the anticipation of the user is completely lost on the game, so you have two options.

1. Make the game feel less responsive and have the anticipation built into the action. Makes for a good looking game, but feels wrong and the user has to compensate by performing their actions early.

2. Go with something that is visually unrealistic by reducing or eliminating the anticipation portion of the move. This makes the game look less realistic, but gives you a more satisfying feel (imho) that better matches the experience you get when playing ball in real life.

Clearly, we chose option two. There is no right or wrong answer, both have advantages and disadvantages. Some people will like one more than the other.

But it's not fair to judge the game solely based on the look which is the part we deliberately sacrificed, without trying the game and feeling the good part (the responsiveness and gameplay balance).

(I know you've played t 23, but many here haven't so that part is directed more to them).

With all do respect reanimator,

I've never at any point felt like Live lacked player control....

Are you telling me that EA has never taken a chance on Next Gen to improve animations because you feel it would hurt player control?

Has there been at any point you guys would consider just for once taking a chance and releasing some of that player control to add more animations.

I mean for 5 years we've had great player control and yet the basic gameplay has never crossed over that level to greatness. It's always been avg at best. Are the EA heads going to for ever stay conservative and never take a chance and see how the other end of the spectrum might play out.

[23]

Re: NBA Elite 11 OS Exclusive Video: Milwaukee Bucks @ New York Knicks

I've posted this before, but I'll post it again. The choices we made about the jumping animations, specifically the minimal gather, was deliberate.

We wanted to nail the proper feeling of playing basketball in real life. Unfortunately in video games the anticipation of the user is completely lost on the game, so you have two options.

1. Make the game feel less responsive and have the anticipation built into the action. Makes for a good looking game, but feels wrong and the user has to compensate by performing their actions early.

2. Go with something that is visually unrealistic by reducing or eliminating the anticipation portion of the move. This makes the game look less realistic, but gives you a more satisfying feel (imho) that better matches the experience you get when playing ball in real life.

Clearly, we chose option two. There is no right or wrong answer, both have advantages and disadvantages. Some people will like one more than the other.

But it's not fair to judge the game solely based on the look which is the part we deliberately sacrificed, without trying the game and feeling the good part (the responsiveness and gameplay balance).

(I know you've played t 23, but many here haven't so that part is directed more to them).

I gotcha, its always something I've had issue with... I understand your reasoning, but that poster is just being ridiculous in here thats all.

Ive said this a couple of times though, because of those decisions, some will like it and some just wont. Im not sure where the end result will end up between the two but I'd watch the consumer closely to see the response to it.

[JWiLL02]

Re: NBA Elite 11 OS Exclusive Video: Milwaukee Bucks @ New York Knicks

Ive said this a couple of times though, because of those decisions, some will like it and some just wont. Im not sure where the end result will end up between the two but I'd watch the consumer closely to see the response to it.

For the last 2 years Live's controls have blown 2k's out of the water and look at what the consumer's response was...what more do they need to see?

Live 10 was the best controlling basketball game I've ever played while 2k10's movement was almost broken, but the depth of animations carried it.

I just don't understand the decision to dedicate an entire year on controls when you already had the best 'feeling' game on the market. Now they've awoken a sleeping giant on the other side and may not even have the best controlling game this year, while their competitor continued to build on it's massive signature animation collection.

Opportunity missed, IMO.

[t-mac357]

I love the commentary and espn integration but... the gameplay seriously looks 10 steps behing Live 10