NBA Elite 11 OS Exclusive Video: Oklahoma City Thunder @ Detroit Pistons

[Boilerbuzz]

Re: NBA Elite 11 OS Exclusive Video: Oklahoma City Thunder @ Detroit Pistons

This is a great post - you obviously know something about the industry. If I may, I'd like to elaborate on why we killed all two man animations, and why personally I've never liked them since their inception.

When you play a single man animation, it is played out based on the speed and facing of the player who is playing the animation. The new animation then 'takes over' his speed and will modify his speed and direction based on the content of the anim. A big task is trying to get anims to match player speed and facing to ensure smooth transitions

The same rules apply to two man anims, but the problem is you have only so much anim budget (memory being limited on the console), so there is no way that you can all entries into the two man anim given the two players can face whatever direction you choose. The result is: one player matches the original motion capture, and the other player gets 'suctioned' into the two man anim. You really can't escape this. this results in a major loss of control and sliding. For one of the two players it usually feels good (but you are still susceptible to my proceeding point), but for the other player involved, you will usually slide into position and perform an action that you never asked for.

Tied into the first point, once the two man anim starts, the second player doesn't have a say in whether or not he is involved. Once it starts, you are committed until a branch point is hit (you CAN just break it out, but it will usually look terrible). Once you're in the anim, it is then looking to branch to various two man outcomes, already predetermined by the initial motion capture via dice roll or in the best circumstance, stick input. This is the other major reason I never liked two man anims - once the players are locked together, yes it will play out visually well, but it will always play out in one of the pre-determined outcomes, and once you play a game enough, this gets predictable and visually stale. All of the highlight videos are going to look similar because there are only so many outcomes.

As soon as you completely detach the players, you move into the realm of both dynamic outcomes, and being in control the whole time. A side effect is definitely less choreographed gameplay (most notably in some limb clipping, and to a lesser extent players not facing in as precise a direction as with a two man anim), but when you try the demo you will know what I'm talking about.

Thank you and what you say is absolutely true. The key is to carefully define your entry and exit/branch states well enough to strike that balance between coverage and resources. You also have other tricks you can play to give the illusion of total coverage and variety. But, again, I respect the decision to go in the direction you did. Thanks for responding.

[Clutch masta]

looks like a polished ps2 game.

[Clutch masta]

Yeah, EA should definitely give up NBA basketball and stick to football, baseball, and hockey because after watching these vids and seeing all that 2K is doing, it's not even kind of close. 2K will dominate sells, graphics, gameplay and everything in between this year. EA will lose more money than they make with their basketball series, or if they happen to make a profit, it won't compare to 2K. Sorry Live/Elite, I actually was kind of hoping I would like it this year, but it's a no-go.

stick to football? they suck in that too.i'll be damned if they hold an nba license.

[pdawg17]

Re: NBA Elite 11 OS Exclusive Video: Oklahoma City Thunder @ Detroit Pistons

looks like a polished ps2 game.

That's only like the 200th time that "witty" comment has been made in this thread...try to be original next time...

[Admiral50]

Re: NBA Elite 11 OS Exclusive Video: Oklahoma City Thunder @ Detroit Pistons

Wait, so you've actually taken the size-up animation and control OUT of the game?

What the hell is going on here? Yet another great feature and great looking move from Live 10 removed?

I seriously feel sorry for anyone with talent on the dev team who has to make a game they don't like but are told to.

I've been one of the harshest critics at times and at other times the biggest fan of Live over the years, obviously seeing all of its highs and lows but this year takes the cake for me. I'm simple stunned at the decision to make this game the way it is.

[23]

Re: NBA Elite 11 OS Exclusive Video: Oklahoma City Thunder @ Detroit Pistons

Figured you would've know that man, seeing as the dribbling was changed, so were the things that came along with it.

[Jano]

Re: NBA Elite 11 OS Exclusive Video: Oklahoma City Thunder @ Detroit Pistons

The ability to do size-up moves is still in the game Admiral but the actual motion captured sequences we saw last year are out.

Most likely took them out because those moves were a sequence of consecutive animations rather then a single set of moves the player could do.

[Admiral50]

Re: NBA Elite 11 OS Exclusive Video: Oklahoma City Thunder @ Detroit Pistons

I just don't get.

Live 10 was close to achieving something special with it's mo-capped animations and multi-player sequences, in that they actually were beginning to feel seemless and less scripted.

The amazing control just topped it off.

I think it's really wrong of a company to release what is essentially a test or work in progress, something that might be worth buying in a couple years and scrap possibly their best ever product in the series.

Sure, if you want to try a new direction then keep it behind closed doors and build it over a couple years, but in the meantime keep polishing the potential in Live 10.

I've almost never based my purchases on a bias or opinion of the company/devs (often jumping back and forth from Live to 2K over the years, based on the better game) but what EA is doing here is certainly isolating their fan base.

[blackngoldfan]

Re: NBA Elite 11 OS Exclusive Video: Oklahoma City Thunder @ Detroit Pistons

No ball/rim variations whatsoever. According to EA, the sticks are supposed to determine the accuracy of the shot, yet all I see is "Clanks" and "Swishes".

http://nbaelite.easports.com/videos?embedCode=9tdWxpMTrAD5_7OYze-ImO6Coha6DV2r

Sorry. Won't embed.

[m-easy]

Re: NBA Elite 11 OS Exclusive Video: Oklahoma City Thunder @ Detroit Pistons

This discussion, which I think in general is a good and pertinent discussion here, continues to get derailed from "control versus function" to "control versus look" and I think it's being done to justify one's argument for control. Who here would try to argue looks over gameplay? For guys like Da_Czar and 23, the issue focused on the lack of animations that reflex the physical limitations of the human body in motion. The fact that the result is ugly in their opinion is just frosting on the cake. But the 'cake' is function and function IS gameplay. I don't think anyone can rightly defend the lack of function and the breaking of reality in a 'sim' game as a universally acceptable compromise.

Then we come to the misnomer of "canned" and "2p" animations being made into this pariah. This is the fact about canned animations: if you do not dynamically manipulate or create a single instance of an animation during playback, then it is by definition "canned". If you build a system that smoothly changes animations based on input and events in the game, that doesn't make the animations "uncanned". THIS is what Elite is doing as I understand it. It's not forcing you to start AND FINISH every animations. This is outstanding, but this is not new and that's fine. It may be new to EA basketball, but it's not new. It may have been taken to another level. And that seems to be too far for some people. The concept of branching and interrupting animations has been around for a long time. But to claim that having canned animations is a bad thing is silly. Almost every animation in almost every game (save few tech demos posing as games) is canned.

But I don't want to detract from the main discussion. Being able to interrupt animations is awesome. Hands down. Giving you as much control as you can stand. But not every animation can be interupt-able. How about that "ankle-breaker" animation that played on the user (3:47 first video)? Do you think the user could interrupt or control that? Sure, his actions triggered it. But once it started, he had to wait until it was done. It was not interrupt-able and therefore, using the adopted meaning given: it is a canned animation. But that animation is MORE than fine. No one complained about anything but the context in which it played. How about ball pickup animation? Do you think any of them are interrupt-able? Rebounds? Not interrupt-able. And none of them NEED be! And these are key animation groups in the game. So to argue that "canned animations are bad" is misplaced.

Same for 2p animation. I can start a long thread on this one in of itself. But having a 2p animation DOES NOT, I repeat, DOES NOT, preclude you from interrupting or branching from any of the animations playing on the 2 actors. If I have a problem with any decision made in Elite, it was the decision to just remove 2p animations all together instead of adopting them into the control system. But I won't sit here and try to argue the merits of 2p animations or question EA's decisions. It's their game and they know what's best for their game. If they feel it was the right decision for their game, who am I to say otherwise. I just think the anti-2p animation mantra building here is misguided though.

Branching and interrupting animations have been around for awhile but that don't have anything to do RTP, its the animation engine. RTP takes out sequences in 2-player animations so nothing is predetermine. IRL when you dunk on some one can you say that he is going to fall on his back every time? Do you have 20 different outcomes in real life? RTP is going to give us a different outcome on-the-fly based on the situation in the game instead of having to choose from a animation pool.

[mrprice33]

The size up system, while looking very nice, was completely unrealistic and made no sense. It required almost no skill.

Now, the idea of a size up is still there, but you actually have to do the moves yourself and read the reactions of the defender. If you can get him to commit one way, you then chain into a move going the other way, and go to the basket. That's how a real size up works, not just holding a trigger for a few seconds then going.

Sent from my HTC EVO 4G using Tapatalk.

[Dawgthem]

Re: NBA Elite 11 OS Exclusive Video: Oklahoma City Thunder @ Detroit Pistons

The size up system, while looking very nice, was completely unrealistic and made no sense. It required almost no skill.

Now, the idea of a size up is still there, but you actually have to do the moves yourself and read the reactions of the defender. If you can get him to commit one way, you then chain into a move going the other way, and go to the basket. That's how a real size up works, not just holding a trigger for a few seconds then going.

Sent from my HTC EVO 4G using Tapatalk.

That sizeup looked so freakin stiff ..are you serious...but then again..my Sig says different v v v v v vv v v v

[The 24th Letter]

Re: NBA Elite 11 OS Exclusive Video: Oklahoma City Thunder @ Detroit Pistons

Does it bother anyone else Durants sig in NBA JAM looks better than this one? lol

Matter of fact its the best ive seen in any game so far

[rEAnimator]

Re: NBA Elite 11 OS Exclusive Video: Oklahoma City Thunder @ Detroit Pistons

This discussion, which I think in general is a good and pertinent discussion here, continues to get derailed from "control versus function" to "control versus look" and I think it's being done to justify one's argument for control. Who here would try to argue looks over gameplay? For guys like Da_Czar and 23, the issue focused on the lack of animations that reflex the physical limitations of the human body in motion. The fact that the result is ugly in their opinion is just frosting on the cake. But the 'cake' is function and function IS gameplay. I don't think anyone can rightly defend the lack of function and the breaking of reality in a 'sim' game as a universally acceptable compromise.

Then we come to the misnomer of "canned" and "2p" animations being made into this pariah. This is the fact about canned animations: if you do not dynamically manipulate or create a single instance of an animation during playback, then it is by definition "canned". If you build a system that smoothly changes animations based on input and events in the game, that doesn't make the animations "uncanned". THIS is what Elite is doing as I understand it. It's not forcing you to start AND FINISH every animations. This is outstanding, but this is not new and that's fine. It may be new to EA basketball, but it's not new. It may have been taken to another level. And that seems to be too far for some people. The concept of branching and interrupting animations has been around for a long time. But to claim that having canned animations is a bad thing is silly. Almost every animation in almost every game (save few tech demos posing as games) is canned.

But I don't want to detract from the main discussion. Being able to interrupt animations is awesome. Hands down. Giving you as much control as you can stand. But not every animation can be interupt-able. How about that "ankle-breaker" animation that played on the user (3:47 first video)? Do you think the user could interrupt or control that? Sure, his actions triggered it. But once it started, he had to wait until it was done. It was not interrupt-able and therefore, using the adopted meaning given: it is a canned animation. But that animation is MORE than fine. No one complained about anything but the context in which it played. How about ball pickup animation? Do you think any of them are interrupt-able? Rebounds? Not interrupt-able. And none of them NEED be! And these are key animation groups in the game. So to argue that "canned animations are bad" is misplaced.

Same for 2p animation. I can start a long thread on this one in of itself. But having a 2p animation DOES NOT, I repeat, DOES NOT, preclude you from interrupting or branching from any of the animations playing on the 2 actors. If I have a problem with any decision made in Elite, it was the decision to just remove 2p animations all together instead of adopting them into the control system. But I won't sit here and try to argue the merits of 2p animations or question EA's decisions. It's their game and they know what's best for their game. If they feel it was the right decision for their game, who am I to say otherwise. I just think the anti-2p animation mantra building here is misguided though.

Great post here, just wanted to clarify a couple of things...

You state that we're branching out of animations at any time which is a good thing, but that our animations are still canned. That is true for some systems, but for others the animations are dynamic (ie not canned) AND you can branch out of them at any time.

I've touched on that in other threads, but our use of layering of animation, our used of IK, our use of blending (not transitional blends but blending in parallel) and how these are all dynamic and driven through user input and physcis, is what we mean by getting rid of canned animations.

You're right, certain parts of the ankle breakers are canned, and that is intentional. The idea is to take you out of the play momentarily, so the loss of control there is for a very good reason.

The other comment was around 2 player animations.

When we talk about two player animations being bad, the baddness comes from the limited coverage you can have which forces players to be suctioned into position for them to play out, and the loss of control due to an inability to branch out of them.

Going with animations that are played in isolation on one player, but chosen based on the physics and the collision results with the other player, adds for many more combinations and permutations of animations to play out, allows for 3 and 4 players to interact at a time without increasing the memory requirements, and makes it much more natural and part of the system for the user to be able to break out at any time.

So I agree that canned animations and two player animations are not bad in and of themselves, but they are generally used in a way (in most games, not just Live) that makes them unresponsive and breaks the immersion and sense of control.

What we're doing in Elite, we feel, gives the user a much more realistic and satisfying experience.

But you can judge that for yourself when the demo drops.

[2kfanatic]

Re: NBA Elite 11 OS Exclusive Video: Oklahoma City Thunder @ Detroit Pistons

Just please give us the control you want us to have while respecting the physical limitations of a human body and make it look realistic in terms of limitation.