How Close are we to a COMPLETELY NEW Madden ENGINE?

**Sausage** · 09-20-2010, 12:51 PM

Re: How Close are we to a COMPLETELY NEW Madden ENGINE?

They supposedly did this in there transition to the 360/PS3 and look how long it took them to make it playable; and even then it has not been mind blowing.

So, if they decided to scrap the engine I am concerned that it will take a few years to get the game to play well. As well as lose an option we liked.

**roadman** · 09-20-2010, 12:54 PM

Re: How Close are we to a COMPLETELY NEW Madden ENGINE?

We won't know anything about Madden 12 until the SB and after.

**REDRZA** · 09-20-2010, 12:57 PM

Re: How Close are we to a COMPLETELY NEW Madden ENGINE?

Originally posted by Lisa_Bonami

I know this generally pops up every so often, but it seems that EA never really faces the question with a legitimate response. It seems like every year they keep building features and tweaks upon a foundation that has pretty much been around since the PS2 came out.

I personally feel like I have reached an enjoyment peak with Madden and their current gameplay engine. This post is not a gripe in any way but more of an honest assessment and and suggestion to the developers. I watch football on Sundays, and I get that urge to load up a video game of football to get that football gameplay fix. The problem is, when I load up Madden, I can no longer enjoy it for more than a few plays.....Quite simply, it just doesnt hold my interest any more. It feels like too much of the same exact game that I have played over and over and over for the last 10 years.

The action on the field doesnt immerse me into the gameplay any more than it did, 10 years ago....This dissapoints me, because in those last 10 years, I have also played games from other companies that added innovative and refreshing new gameplay elements to make the game much more enjoyable and interactive for the player while Madden pretty much played it safe and made tweaks here and there to the same foundation.

Just to name some features and elements that have really made video game football refreshing and more interactive:

NFL Fever 2004: Passing Cursor System- Brilliant Right Thumbstick Cursor Controlled Passing System to throw the ball anywhere you want on the field without scripted and predefined passes and button based receivers. This was devilishly addicting, and made passing the ball in a football game as fun...and as interactively challenging as cursor based hitting in a baseball game....Great design.

BackBreaker: True Physics Based Gameplay- Once you experience the open and dynamic world of true physics based tackling, and interaction between players, it almost makes it difficult to ever go back to anything with scripted motion captured interaction ever again.

2k Sports: Detailed Attributes & Player Ratings- Anyone who has ever played this game for a few seasons can appreciate the attention to detail and variety that 2K Sports demonstrated with an Attribute and Rating profile for every player that realistically generated subtle differences between similar positional players. For example, a reciever like Randy Moss, Terrell Owens, and Tory Holt, had distinctions and variety in their profiles that really individualized them and their actions on the field.

Maybe I am in the minority here, but I think its well overdue now for the general sports gaming public to expect EA to take their Football Engine to that next level....whatever it is, and completely rebuild it with something new, and much more immersive and interactive.

Is there any news or anything in the works at EA that would give us hope?

I want to love playing Madden again, I want to feel that same sense of excitement and anticipation for this game like I had way back when this game was in its prime

You are not alone. Many of us have been saying this exact same thing. If you are a long time consumer and fan of this franchise, you KNOW it hasn't changed at it's core in many, many years. Graphics have gotten better, they have added more animations, and other than that, all they do each and every year is tweak and tune the legacy code that has driven this game for many years.

I'm not bashing Madden or saying it's terrible, im saying it's just gotten stale and old. How many years can we play the same game/engine(s). (I always have to write "engine(s)" plural for all the EA apologists who say Madden is more than one engine). Semantics aside, whatever you want to call it, we need a newer, smarter, more innovative game ground up.

EA has done it in the past with critical success. Triple Play baseball became MVP Baseball, Knockout Kings became Fight Night, and NHL didn't change names but definitely changed game engine(s) and we all know how all those games turned out.

I think with Madden they are in a weird predicament. I don't know if they are afraid to change the formula, or it's that they spent all that money for the NFL license limiting development funding, or the fact they have no competition. All i know is the game will never change unless it stops selling. It's just a shame that NHL fans, FIFA fans, MLB (The show) fans, NBA (2K) fans ALL get VERY solid representations of their favorite sports, and we get essentially the same game each and every year.

**REDRZA** · 09-20-2010, 01:00 PM

Re: How Close are we to a COMPLETELY NEW Madden ENGINE?

On a side note, and this is a perfect example, i felt that Madden 06 on the 360, which everyone hated because of its bare bones gameplay, was definately a step towards a new game. I remember Tiki Barber holding the ball "high and tight" just like he did in reality. The players definately ran/moved/animated differently. I am fully aware there was a serious lack of features and modes, but i felt they were at least going in the right direction. That is, until the fanbase outcried, and it seems they went back to the old legacy code.

**trufootball** · 09-20-2010, 01:00 PM

Re: How Close are we to a COMPLETELY NEW Madden ENGINE?

This is something that excites me and makes me nervous because the future of videogame football is completely up in the air at this point at least to those who aren't in the know which is the consumers (us). Mainly because of this whole exclusive license thing, it messes everything up. Who know where the technology would be if there was real competition across the board. That is the only way we will reallly ever see the bar raised to where it should be. But until then who knows...i would love to hear from the devs themselves about this subject, there has to be some technology like what we have in fight night and this upcoming nba elite that can be used for madden... it would make this game much more realistic

**REDRZA** · 09-20-2010, 01:03 PM

Re: How Close are we to a COMPLETELY NEW Madden ENGINE?

Originally posted by Sausage

They supposedly did this in there transition to the 360/PS3 and look how long it took them to make it playable; and even then it has not been mind blowing.

So, if they decided to scrap the engine I am concerned that it will take a few years to get the game to play well. As well as lose an option we liked.

Sausage, if you have played this game for any significant amount of time i don't see how you can believe that. This game currently plays exactly the same as it has for 10 years now. Again, graphics are better, more animations, some features are added and stripped, and the code is tweaked and tuned a bit different, but underlying all that it's the same game.

**EmmittSmithx22x** · 09-20-2010, 01:09 PM

Re: How Close are we to a COMPLETELY NEW Madden ENGINE?

Every year we call for specific game changes to be made. Most of the time that are reasonable, and can be accomplished as quick fixes before the next year. and every year EA ignores everything we say and goes in a completely different direction. I never heard anyone clamoring for "simpler, quicker, deeper" or wanting to take away plays or anything like that. This crap just came out left field. Just another example of how well they "Listen to their Consumers".

**Segagendude** · 09-20-2010, 01:42 PM

Re: How Close are we to a COMPLETELY NEW Madden ENGINE?

How close? About as close as the Browns winning a super bowl, I'm afraid.

**Lisa_Bonami** · 09-20-2010, 01:50 PM

Re: How Close are we to a COMPLETELY NEW Madden ENGINE?

OK, Im glad Im not alone.....Also, I want to keep this discussion open, objective, but most of all,....productive and thought provoking. Otherwise it wont serve any purpose if it becomes a EA bashing thread.

I find it intriguing that some people object to innovation design changes for fear of 'breaking' something that is working. I guess my question to that would be, is it better to live in mediocrity and comfort zones from year to year with just new rosters and tweaks or do some of you yearn for radical change and evolution?

I for one, have been playing this game since the Sega Genesis days, and I am seriously craving them to really break out of this sameness they've been in for a long time.

Usually, to achieve this effectively, you need to just bring in new blood...new programmers and designers that have fresh new ideas. Now Im certainly not calling for people to get replaced or fired...but rather bring in some fresh new perspectives to work along side the current team to inject some new ways to approach the game.

And Im not talking about adding more detailed textures, faces or skin, etc. ....What I'm talking about starts with a high level round table Project management meeting with the entire design team to brainstorm new ideas and innovative gameplay elements to recharge this DejaVu Franchise.

Im talking about leaving no stones unturned.

Im talking about rethinking the passing engine and controls, ....brainstorm how to make it more fun and interact giving the player more controlled input rather than soley relying on just dice rolls and scripted ball trajectories to determine results

Im talking about more immersive and controllable hitting and tackling that utilizes momentum, physics and locational damage (hitting different areas yields different results with different players)

Im talking about rethinking attributes and player ratings and how they shape a player's performance and generate individualism and variety

Im talking about rethinking how the CPU uses its AI and how it can behave with more human tendancy as well as more human mistakes

Im talking about rethinking the Franchise and how to give it more detail and things a player can do to enhance their experience

Im talking about rethinking how the player can better interact with the game and its controls

Im talking about rethinking how the game can better reward the player for playing intelligently and tactfully sound football.

Im talking about rethinking how the game can better simulate the grunts, groans, shoulder pads, helmet to helmet contact.....create a more dynamic and realistic sounding world out on the field rather than just scripted and simple repetitious crunch sounds over and over

Im talking about rethinking how the crowd should dynamically react to events on the field and really interact with more realistic variety throughout the entire game to recreate a true authentic stadium environment with over 60,000 crazed fans.

Im talking about really thinking about adding a whole nother dimmension of immersion by generating gameplans and scouting reports that give the player the ability to handicap and scout opponents to better prepare for different teams

There is so much that can be discussed in this high level meeting that can take this game to another level than where its been at for years now....at least thats how I would do it if I was part of the management team in the Madden franchise

**adembroski** · 09-20-2010, 01:52 PM

Re: How Close are we to a COMPLETELY NEW Madden ENGINE?

Originally posted by Lisa_Bonami

I know this generally pops up every so often, but it seems that EA never really faces the question with a legitimate response. It seems like every year they keep building features and tweaks upon a foundation that has pretty much been around since the PS2 came out.

Depends on what you mean by "engine". Madden is not Mass Effect, there isn't an underlying "core" which is merely tweaked, because Madden was not designed to be made into dozens of other games.

So I presume you're talking the core mechanics that form the central gameplay of both Madden and NCAA. If that's the case, then the process you're asking for is occurring piecemeal as it stands. Locomotion and run blocking were both ripped out and replaced this past season.

I personally feel like I have reached an enjoyment peak with Madden and their current gameplay engine. This post is not a gripe in any way but more of an honest assessment and and suggestion to the developers. I watch football on Sundays, and I get that urge to load up a video game of football to get that football gameplay fix. The problem is, when I load up Madden, I can no longer enjoy it for more than a few plays.....Quite simply, it just doesnt hold my interest any more. It feels like too much of the same exact game that I have played over and over and over for the last 10 years.

The action on the field doesnt immerse me into the gameplay any more than it did, 10 years ago....This dissapoints me, because in those last 10 years, I have also played games from other companies that added innovative and refreshing new gameplay elements to make the game much more enjoyable and interactive for the player while Madden pretty much played it safe and made tweaks here and there to the same foundation.

Just to name some features and elements that have really made video game football refreshing and more interactive:

NFL Fever 2004: Passing Cursor System- Brilliant Right Thumbstick Cursor Controlled Passing System to throw the ball anywhere you want on the field without scripted and predefined passes and button based receivers. This was devilishly addicting, and made passing the ball in a football game as fun...and as interactively challenging as cursor based hitting in a baseball game....Great design.

Your opinion, I disagree. I found it cumbersome. I hate cursor based hitting as well. It's video gamey, not realistic. It reminds me of a QB attempting to guide his throw, which in real life, is bad.

BackBreaker: True Physics Based Gameplay- Once you experience the open and dynamic world of true physics based tackling, and interaction between players, it almost makes it difficult to ever go back to anything with scripted motion captured interaction ever again.

Except that the rest of the game is so far from football all the physics in the world can't save it. I've been amazing, mesmerized, and fascinated by individual replays in that game, but the lack of anything else resembling the sport keeps me from enjoying anything but the replays.

As far as replicating the sport of football, I'm afraid that from a tactical sense, Madden still does a better job. Sure, the tackles themselves are very realistic in BB, but we're back to "once there's contact, sit back and enjoy the view" gameplay that takes the dynamicism completely out of the game. Madden is mistuned in this respect (too many broken tackles), but the utter predictability of the result of the hit kills it for me.

2k Sports: Detailed Attributes & Player Ratings- Anyone who has ever played this game for a few seasons can appreciate the attention to detail and variety that 2K Sports demonstrated with an Attribute and Rating profile for every player that realistically generated subtle differences between similar positional players. For example, a reciever like Randy Moss, Terrell Owens, and Tory Holt, had distinctions and variety in their profiles that really individualized them and their actions on the field.

I totally disagree. NFL 2k5 was a fine game, don't get me wrong. Overall, better than anything that Madden has produced; but the ratings sucked. Maddens current rating system is the best, imho, in sports games. Players are broken down by the most minute detail I've ever seen... Catch vs. Catch in Traffic vs. Spectacular Catch, SAC/MAC/DAC, Zone cover vs. man cover, power move vs. finesse move... Madden does a better job of differentiating player ability than any sports game out there.

That said, it doesn't do a very good job of mirroring player style... but neither did 2k5. Both have general AI scripts that cover all players in all situations. Randy Moss and Terrell Owens stood out in 2k5 as well done because the AI scripts mirrored how they play in real life. Every WR in 2k5 played like Terrell Owens.

Furthermore, the ratings meant very little in 2k5. That was my biggest complaint about that game. I never felt the difference between Payton Manning and Tim Rattay. Some backs I did, and some receivers made better targets, but outside of those two positions it felt like everyone was identical except that Player A was somehow "better" than Player B.

Maybe I am in the minority here, but I think its well overdue now for the general sports gaming public to expect EA to take their Football Engine to that next level....whatever it is, and completely rebuild it with something new, and much more immersive and interactive.

I don't think you're in the minority, I simply think the majority is wrong. There's nothing wrong with the 'engine', it's the building blocks that make up the game. NFL 2k5 was undeniably greater than the sum of its parts. Madden is the sum of its parts, nothing more, nothing less.

NFL 2k5 did a great job with the 'enhancing' parts of the game. That is, the areas that aren't necessary, but round out the experience. When those parts of the game are so polished, it makes you overlook small flaws. Madden doesn't do those as well, and thus the flaws pop out. NFL 2k5 played a better game of football, but by what degree? Money plays were there, every game featured 8-10 sacks, 3-6 interceptions, unreal numbers of blown coverages, motion bugs, locomotion that didn't apply in circumstances that would hurt the CPU, etc.. But the announcers were good and the replays looked cool... so we forgive.

Is there any news or anything in the works at EA that would give us hope?

Locomotion and Run Blocking. They are surrounded by flaws otherwise, but you're asking for reason for hope, not systems that are perfect now. What I'm pointing out is the direction. Those are steps 1 and 2 of a many tiered project.

What will follow those up? Run fits? pass blocking? Coverage? Defensive alignment? Those kinds of things will continually improve the game play.

Quite honestly, the presentation has potential. It's unpolished at the moment. Some minor changes in design would have made an immense difference. Commentary... I dunno, that might be a lost cause at this point, but otherwise, it's coming along. Slower than I'd like, but it's progressing.

I want to love playing Madden again, I want to feel that same sense of excitement and anticipation for this game like I had way back when this game was in its prime

Quite honestly, I never really felt that for Madden. At least, not since PlayStation. The crowd and announcing has always been terrible.

What I do feel it for is NCAA 11. If that is any indication of what Madden is capable of, then I do have high hopes.

**guaps** · 09-20-2010, 01:53 PM

Re: How Close are we to a COMPLETELY NEW Madden ENGINE?

While I do feel that EA Tiburon needs to deliver a better representation of football, I believe EA can improve Madden using the current software or 'engine', if they are willing to make some changes. Oh, and for the record, I hope that we will not see the cursor based passing of NFL Fever 2004 or the rag-doll-like physics of Backbreaker in Madden.

Basically all the large EA Sports franchises (Madden, NCAA, FIFA, NHL, NBA Elite) are running on versions of the same software, so if one thing is possible in one of the other games, the chances of something being possible in Madden is very high.

I personally would like a more realistic approach to passing - call it route-based passing, NFL style passing or whatever you like - but receivers are supposed to stick to their routes and QB are supposed pass to the spot where the receiver is supposed to be at. The current passing system in Madden is a very poor representation of the passing in the NFL - especially since receivers and defenders don't have too see the ball to know where it is and where it is going. Also in Madden, you don't have to respect the play calling nor the routes your receiver runs, as you can improvise freely.

With regards to physics I've seen that they are possible in Fight Night Round 4 and NHL 11 (also NBA Elite 11 is being released soon). This tells us that physical interactions are possible with the current software and therefore quite possible that we'll see it in Madden at some time soon (I hope, it will be incorporate in 12 or 13). As I mentioned above I'm not a big fan of Backbreaker. I have respect for their attempt to create a physics-based football game, but there is something about the physics in that game that looks and feels odd to me. I would actually prefer an attempt to incorporate physics in the animation-based software of Madden (or 2k).

I'm planning on doing a blog/thread on my vision on a revamped ratings system with attributes for Madden next month. I'm currently waiting for the release of FIFA 11 to be able to test their system, as the software of all of these games are interconnected at some level. If the other games can incorporate attributes and traits in their systems (and it works!), then it must be possible for Madden as well. Also I'm looking to suggest a more simplified version of the current Madden rating system that currently consists of almost 50 individual ratings, with an overall rating that is basically useless.

One aspect of Madden I do not like though is the aspect of player models. Currently everyone behaves the same on the field regardless of height or weight. Animations are driven by ratings only, resulting in some very odd representations on the field. E.g. Lions receivers Calvin Johnson Jr. (6'5", 236) and Stefan Logan (5'7", 180) runs synchronized routes if you give the both the same ACC, AGL and SPD ratings. No difference in stride length, footwork during cuts or anything, because they use the exact same animations for both players.

**Todem** · 09-20-2010, 02:04 PM

Re: How Close are we to a COMPLETELY NEW Madden ENGINE?

The game is still selling so well. Nothing will really change. It does not take a lot to please me. I only ask for a dedicated overhaul of the franchise mode. Like I have stated in other threads this years game with the right sliders and gameplanning plays pretty damm good IMO. I am so used to the legacy issues it has become a non-issue. When you have been playing the game as long as I have (and most of you for that matter) I think we all agree there is a reason we have played it for so long. Because it's fun. I thought 2010 was not fun. AI was broken and easy to exploit.

Give us the ulitmate franchsie mode that is what we really really want. I think the game plays good. If you don't then don't buy it anymore. But for those of us who still like Madden give us the features we have been craving for since it's switch to next gen.

If it had the same franchise mode as 2005/07 80% of the whining and complaints would cease.

Presentation also needs to get an overhaul. If you give us NFL2K5 presentation with a Madden 2005 like franchise mode....you will have a very happy harcore Madden buyer.

Thing is with this gen's console power. Franchise and presentation can be even better than NFL2K5 and Madden 2005. Funny how games 10 years old are still the benchmark.

What is that saying?

**Hova57** · 09-20-2010, 02:15 PM

Re: How Close are we to a COMPLETELY NEW Madden ENGINE?

much like what Adem said i think parts of the whole are being done, its just a matter how much can be done in one cycle. Defense and return teams needs worked on . one on one interaction needs improved this is where RTP would come into play, i believe this would also help ball placement during passes. commentary don't know how they would fix it. Overall the typical 3 year cycle may be a 4 year cycle for madden IMO

**Todem** · 09-20-2010, 02:17 PM

Re: How Close are we to a COMPLETELY NEW Madden ENGINE?

Originally posted by Hova57

much like what Adem said i think parts of the whole are being done, its just a matter how much can be done in one cycle. Defense and return teams needs worked on . one on one interaction needs improved this is where RTP would come into play, i believe this would also help ball placement during passes. commentary don't know how they would fix it. Overall the typical 3 year cycle may be a 4 year cycle for madden IMO

Get Gus Johnson and Collinsworth in a booth together and record hundreads of hours of play by play and color interaction together so it sounds like a real game being called.

NBA 2K does it....why can't EA?

How Close are we to a COMPLETELY NEW Madden ENGINE?

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