NBA Elite 11 Demo Roundtable

**dtq** · 09-25-2010, 07:47 PM

Re: NBA Elite 11 Demo Roundtable

Originally posted by Fngb3

Oh no doubt no doubt. The technology won't be as new, for sure. And knowing 2K they won't do it until they're sure they can do it right. I just mean from EAs perspective, being well behind as they were (are), this was their chance to try and really be more polished regarding the next sort of manifestation of basketball sims, than 2K. I just think it's pretty clear that for the next 3 years at least, 2K aint gon have any other bball games climbin up their arse, and it's pretty typical for something to not progress as rapidly without conflict. I wouldn't even blame them for not improving greatly while EAs rebuilding... I'm just excited to see what happens a few years from now, once EA builds around this new core...

Fair enough. I see your point.

**Live_4real** · 09-25-2010, 07:47 PM

Re: NBA Elite 11 Demo Roundtable

You can´t forget that this game is not the first one in the Live/Elite franchise

People have burned money on this franchise for years in this generation of consoles, last year they saw a light, and because they felt that this year the game took a step backwards, they feel like the old days

Some are acting like bashing machines, but in fact they care about the game, and all they want is a good product

2 of the biggest issues that I can understand the Sim nation could have with the game are:

- People feel that this game as nothing to do with NBA, they don´t feel LBJ when playing with LBJ, they wan´t NBA and not b-ball

- And the other aspect (that I guess sim ballers are stressing), is the fact that you have to many control over your player offensively, that you almost feel like the play-calling/exploit of missmatches are almost useless, because when playing one on one, you can almost guarantee if you use screens/drible moves with skill, 90% of the times you will be successful

This is a problem that I think Elite will have to figure out in every single game going forward.

How to keep the strategic aspect of basketball as important as is the Stick skill already in this game

PeAcE

**Fngb3** · 09-25-2010, 07:50 PM

Re: NBA Elite 11 Demo Roundtable

Originally posted by rEAnimator

That's why I asked what 5v5 dynamics were missing in response to that previous post. I can't think of any.

I said in an earlier post of mine that I was actually diggin most of the controls in practice mode, but that once it came to 5v5 I did a complete 180 on the game. I've also said in a post of mine that for me, it's not so much jerky animations or warping or half-time shows, or anything like that, that get's me interested in a basketball game. So from my end, signature styles, people looking plasticky, realistic collisions, smooth animations, etc. is not what I look for. Sure, it makes it a tad harder to swallow when those things are all off but for me it comes down to this: Is the way to be succesful in this game to use the strategies that real basketball teams need to use to be succesful?

So this is obviously a majorly huge topic but let's see if I can break this down with brevity.

Offensively:
Ball and player movement is the mechanism real teams use to get open, high percentage shots.
In the instance of super-star players, this is occasionally unecessary because they can produce their own offense.

Defensively:
Defense is always about position.
On Ball defenders are succesful when they keep their man in front of them or at least force them away from the paint. And stay close enough to contest or alter shots.
Off-ball defenders look to be in position to help if the on ball defender gets beat, but close enough to get back to their man if he gets the ball.
Defense is about regression to the mean. And by that I mean, you make the highest amount of shots the other team takes, as difficult as possible. Some will go in, but if a defense is sound, the percentage of succesful conversions from the offensive team is reduce. This is why the Celtics are succesful. They have a system. There are easy looks sometimes, but in the long run, the opposing teams shoot a low FG% against them.

I don't mean to sound condescending like you've never studied basketball before, but these are basic precepts that make teams succesful on both sides of the ball.

The only thing I see in the Elite 11 demo from that small list is: "...the instance of super-star players [producing] their own offense." I don't see any of those other fundamental aspects of basketball.

Defensive rotation and position is something both 2K and EA struggle with. I imagine that is because it's difficult to replicate... Nonetheless, because Elite is starting over, that system is suddenly massively underdeveloped.

**Kaanyr Vhok** · 09-25-2010, 07:55 PM

Re: NBA Elite 11 Demo Roundtable

Originally posted by rEAnimator

Before the demo came out I would have agreed for sure, but I haven't heard much about them since.

The CPU AI on offense, the shot blocking, too many steals, the lack of fouls being called, and the animations as a whole specially the dribble and dunk animations.

Its just a lot of little things too like the location of the stance. One easy way to give unprecedented control is to use the range of motion of the trigger for the stance.

I feel like a ham linking my video but I made it because it speaks louder than words. These are the little things that people care about.

<EMBED height=385 type=application/x-shockwave-flash width=480 src=http://www.youtube.com/v/kH1BUg75YY0?fs=1&hl=en_US allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></EMBED>

<EMBED height=385 type=application/x-shockwave-flash width=480 src=http://www.youtube.com/v/GL6a2P4KwJw?fs=1&hl=en_US allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true">

On a good note the physics system has wipped out full body clipping.
</EMBED>

**ccoaxum** · 09-25-2010, 07:56 PM

rEAnimator , honestly i like the game and i am going to buy it. But if you can put anything into a patch this is what i recommend, give each player more signature style play(dribbles, movement, shots) like i see u did a lil with the shots but i just notice it with there hands and not as much of the whole style if you knowing what im saying. Another thing is the team play, it does feel at times as if every one on the court is not doing there job or they are not paying any attention to the game.(manily on d-fense of course). graphics can be better but i really do not care because honestly all the people in the game looks like themselves but their skin texture kinda looks like a cartoon style. Other then that for me i love it. So if you can put that in a patch soon around the time of the release of the game, man that will help this game out a whole lot.

**rEAnimator** · 09-25-2010, 07:59 PM

Re: NBA Elite 11 Demo Roundtable

Originally posted by Fngb3

I said in an earlier post of mine that I was actually diggin most of the controls in practice mode, but that once it came to 5v5 I did a complete 180 on the game. I've also said in a post of mine that for me, it's not so much jerky animations or warping or half-time shows, or anything like that, that get's me interested in a basketball game. So from my end, signature styles, people looking plasticky, realistic collisions, smooth animations, etc. is not what I look for. Sure, it makes it a tad harder to swallow when those things are all off but for me it comes down to this: Is the way to be succesful in this game to use the strategies that real basketball teams need to use to be succesful?

So this is obviously a majorly huge topic but let's see if I can break this down with brevity.

Offensively:
Ball and player movement is the mechanism real teams use to get open, high percentage shots.
In the instance of super-star players, this is occasionally unecessary because they can produce their own offense.

Defensively:
Defense is always about position.
On Ball defenders are succesful when they keep their man in front of them or at least force them away from the paint. And stay close enough to contest or alter shots.
Off-ball defenders look to be in position to help if the on ball defender gets beat, but close enough to get back to their man if he gets the ball.
Defense is about regression to the mean. And by that I mean, you make the highest amount of shots the other team takes, as difficult as possible. Some will go in, but if a defense is sound, the percentage of succesful conversions from the offensive team is reduce. This is why the Celtics are succesful. They have a system. There are easy looks sometimes, but in the long run, the opposing teams shoot a low FG% against them.

I don't mean to sound condescending like you've never studied basketball before, but these are basic precepts that make teams succesful on both sides of the ball.

What I see in the Elite 11 demo from that small list is: "...the instance of super-star players [producing] their own offense." I don't see movement away from the ball.
Defensive rotation and position is something both 2K and EA struggle with. I imagine that is because it's difficult to replicate... Nonetheless, because Elite is starting over, that system is suddenly massively underdeveloped.

OK, like you said nothing new there. I play and watch basketball, I get it.

The part I'm still struggling with is why people don't see these things in Elite when I do.

I'll admit to having not played against the CPU very much this year, but I played many a game against Connor, and the way I'd win or play defense is exactly as you describe.

I'm not saying that in defense of the game or to change anyone's mind, but simply as an observation and explanation of why I'm struggling with the feedback.

Perhaps, as others have stated, the level of control you have and the learning curve, means your first experience with the game is radically less authentic than your first experience with a game that gives you less freedom simply because that game restricts you more to be within the confines of authenticity, whereas Elite allows to to venture far off into Wonderland, but also allows you to play an authentic and rewarding game of basketball.

Unfortunately most people see Wonderland as their first experience.

Another piece of the puzzle perhaps.

**Fngb3** · 09-25-2010, 08:18 PM

Re: NBA Elite 11 Demo Roundtable

Originally posted by Live_4real

You can´t forget that this game is not the first one in the Live/Elite franchise
...
- People feel that this game as nothing to do with NBA, they don´t feel LBJ when playing with LBJ, they wan´t NBA and not b-ball

Top part of that; yes it's true, this isn't their first rodeo. I'd venture to guess the knowledge of the game of basketball is alive a well in the minds of the team over at EA. But for all intents and purposes (just as the name implies) things are completely new. And there's just no way to stuff all that they know into a new game in 12 months. I would imagine the pressure to put a game out every year is the reason they put this out at all. That starts at the top in EAs management. If you asked the dev team and they were allowed to be frank with us, I bet they'd say they'd liked to have had another year or maybe even two, to get this game ready for us.

The bottom part; I want to separate two very distinct aspects of what you're talking about here. A sim baller doesn't necessarily need LBJ to look like LBJ or shoot like LBJ. Undeniably, it makes the immersion much greater. But at the heart of things, what a sim baller needs is for whatever avatar on screen representing LBJ, to DO what LBJ can do, and not do what he can't. I don't want to see him shooting better from 3 than Eddie House. I don't care if he's a super star. I don't want to see him ever effectively execute a post move. I want to see the dude pass like he can see the future like Nick Cage from "Next" and just in general be more physically gifted than every other person around him.

I don't need a v-player to look or move like their real life counter part. I just need to say, "OK this is how the real LBJ is succesful, so baring my ability to properly cultivate similar opportunities and execute, I should be succesful that way too."

**Fngb3** · 09-25-2010, 08:28 PM

Re: NBA Elite 11 Demo Roundtable

Originally posted by rEAnimator

Perhaps, as others have stated, the level of control you have and the learning curve, means your first experience with the game is radically less authentic than your first experience with a game that gives you less freedom simply because that game restricts you more to be within the confines of authenticity, whereas Elite allows to to venture far off into Wonderland, but also allows you to play an authentic and rewarding game of basketball.

Unfortunately most people see Wonderland as their first experience.

Another piece of the puzzle perhaps.

I'm pretty sure I understand what you're saying here, which is that now that we have so much control, we actually have the power to replicate real basketball, but at the same time, that authenticity isn't going to be "canned" or "given" to us. And we just need to learn how to harness and focus this new control.

That's a nice sentiment but I don't think that's entirely the issue here.

People have also said two other things about the control (and I'm paraphrasing):

1. That it is easy to break the defense down with the ball handler.
2. Shooting is too succesful.

Now I realize some other people may say the exact opposite of that, but in those cases I would say THOSE people are not used to the controls. There are some elite gamers here at OS (honestly, no pun intended) and I think part of the issue here is that their skills were actually pretty severly underrated.

If that's the case, if it's in fact too easy to dribble and shoot, it lends a little more credence to the people who are saying it's basically a 1v1 game with 8 other people running around.

I guess my point then is: if, to get real basketball, we gamers have to "dumb-down" if we have to that greatly cap our own skills, then it's not going to be very fun... If we're the one's that have to "remain within the confines of authenticity" then does that also translate to NBA Jam? Should I ask that they stick 8 more guys on that court and only take open jump shots and try not to jump from the 3PT line to dunk it? Sorry to be so sarcastic all of a sudden, but if the intention of the game was to give us so much control that we ourselves have to "keep it real" then I think someone, somewhere, severely misunderstood something extremely important.

**Live_4real** · 09-25-2010, 08:32 PM

Re: NBA Elite 11 Demo Roundtable

Originally posted by Fngb3

Top part of that; yes it's true, this isn't their first rodeo. I'd venture to guess the knowledge of the game of basketball is alive a well in the minds of the team over at EA. But for all intents and purposes (just as the name implies) things are completely new. I would imagine the pressure to put a game out every year is the reason they put this out at all. That starts at the top. If you asked the dev team and their were allowed to be frank with us, I bet they'd say they'd liked to have had another year or maybe even two, to get this game ready for us.

The bottom part; I want to separate two very distinct aspects of what you're talking about here. A sim baller doesn't necessarily need LBJ to look like LBJ or shoot like LBJ. Undeniably, it makes the emersion much greater. But at the heart of things, what a sim baller needs is for whatever avatar on screen representing LBJ, to DO what LBJ can do, and not do what he can't. I don't want to see him shooting better from 3 than Eddie House. I don't care if he's a super star. I don't want to see him ever effectively execute a post move. I want to see the dude pass like he can see the future like Nick Cage from "Next" and just in general be more physically gifted than every other person around him.

I don't need a v-player to look or move like their real life counter part. I just need to say, "OK this is how the real LBJ is succesful, so baring my ability to properly cultivate similar opportunities and execute, I should be succesful that way too."

Yeah, that is what I tried to say...

That guy that is representing LBJ, should have the abilities that the real dude has, he should feel like LBJ...

The signature stuff is a plus, what it should not happen is seeing LBJ being stopped in a fast-break because Derek Fisher was quicker then him.

But for me that this a problem that Live has had for years.

RATINGS RATINGS RATINGS

For players to play like the real life counter parts, the ratings HAVE to be precise, and actually all of them should have an impact on the gameplay.

Of course the visual part of seeing LBJ shoot like LBJ is more important for some then is for others, but we can agree that for the b-ball heads this is important also

PeAcE

**Zen_Master07** · 09-25-2010, 08:36 PM

Re: NBA Elite 11 Demo Roundtable

I think the most frustrating thing was that you guys just changed the system without any sort of warning. When Mike Wang left, everybody knew something was up. Like many others, i dont feel like i had any input on the game and am forced to live with what some devs believe works. With a few minor changes, Live could've challenged 2k this year and maybe even beat it in terms of sales. We all knew a change in the systems was coming, but not until the next gen. The best idea at this point is to go back to Live 10's engine and build off of it. Trust me, the new controls are not worth a whole years development cycle

**Kaanyr Vhok** · 09-25-2010, 08:43 PM

Re: NBA Elite 11 Demo Roundtable

Originally posted by rEAnimator

So are you upset about the way it was marketed, or about the game itself?

You seem more upset about the marketing, which I can kind of understand, although I was extremely open about what we were delivering and never claimed anything like backbreaker.

But let's get to the heart of the problem in the game itself.

And thanks for helping out.

From a gameplay persepctive I'm disapointed because its not balanced.

If weird spatic collisions are the penalty for stamping out clipping I would be ok if there werent already so many weird animations.

The game doesnt read the contact. I'm happy with some no calls. Far too many in Elite though. Obvious fouls are registered as blocks.

While I wasnt at all expecting something like Backbreaker I was hoping that you had some sort of real time animation system for players that get knocked down. Whenever someone goes down it looks scripted. The system doesnt register the real hard stuff. If it did you would at least have a bunch of youtube videos of people colliding. Stern might have a fit lol.

I dont blame EA for the marketing. My issue is with the cosumer that values it just for the sake of it being there which sends a message that all you need to do is talk about something. It doesnt have to really work well at all. While at the same time you have Backbreaker with a realtime animation and physics system that works well.

so use euphoria

**convince** · 09-25-2010, 08:46 PM

Re: NBA Elite 11 Demo Roundtable

Originally posted by rEAnimator

OK, like you said nothing new there. I play and watch basketball, I get it.

The part I'm still struggling with is why people don't see these things in Elite when I do.

I'll admit to having not played against the CPU very much this year, but I played many a game against Connor, and the way I'd win or play defense is exactly as you describe.

I'm not saying that in defense of the game or to change anyone's mind, but simply as an observation and explanation of why I'm struggling with the feedback.

Perhaps, as others have stated, the level of control you have and the learning curve, means your first experience with the game is radically less authentic than your first experience with a game that gives you less freedom simply because that game restricts you more to be within the confines of authenticity, whereas Elite allows to to venture far off into Wonderland, but also allows you to play an authentic and rewarding game of basketball.

Unfortunately most people see Wonderland as their first experience.

Another piece of the puzzle perhaps.

With all due respect, I think you are well aware of the flaws in your CPU/AI. You continue to pick and choose which post to respond to and that's your right to do so. But please don't don't try to throw the wool over our eyes, like you weren't aware of these issues. I post numerous times, even before the demo dropped asking you to post video of and CPU/AI ran offense that's not the Thunder.(Check my posts if you don't believe me) I even mention the Suns and Spurs as choices. Now you saying that you didn't play against the CPU much. Is that not an aspect of your game that you have to make sure is up to par? I really found that statement hard to believe. Another thing hard to believe. For example, like the quote below.

Originally posted by rEAnimator

OK, this makes a lot of sense to me if it's true.

Unfortunately there's not a whole lot that can be done about it at this point, and it means that extracting objective feedback is going to be extremely difficult.

It does explain why some people are not giving profound reasons for the dislike, and it keeps coming back to the fact that it didn't build off live, or it didn't come from the community.

You should be well aware of this point. This point that Live 10 seems to be better than Elite 11, was beaten to death. And there a tons of profound reason for the dislike. Let's say you knock the controls out the park. There is more to a game than control. Your game lacks, individuality/Signature, it lacks realistic AI/CPU ran offense, verticals as mention before are way too high, but you mention why this one done, but it is still a problem. When it comes to shooting, i don't think ratings play no part at all, I shouldn't be able to go 8/10 from 3 with Gasol b/c i have his release point down. And I'm sure you are aware Bynum doesn't have handles like D. Rose but he has the ability to all the dribbles moves in the game. This is weird b/c i remember the diary you guys released showing Bynum losing the ball when doing a behind the back move, yet it doesn't happen in the demo, at least it doesn't happen to me.

And finally http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xxb6L8vV614

Don't worry i wont post again b/c like someone mention before, I think we are beating a dead horse.

**Kaanyr Vhok** · 09-25-2010, 08:47 PM

Re: NBA Elite 11 Demo Roundtable

Originally posted by ccoaxum

i totally disagree with yall review but everybody have their own opinion, and every like different things. An the person who said that you can dribble with any body on the game like their a pg, is a lie you can not dribble the ball with your center like a pg, hack he will lose control of the ball and they dribble slower then a pg at that. To make it worse on that comment, EA put a video out on that exaxt situation with Andrew Bynum trying to dribble on the game. smh...this game is clearly not for everyone and they said from way b4 the game came out that this game wasn't going to be for everyone, hack some the ppl on here, not calling names but the ones who went to that event at the beach said it themselves that this game was not going to be for everyone. An just because good bit of ppl(lol which is alot not going to lie) don't like dose not mean the game is not good. If thats the case no game in the world is could because every game have that group ppl who do not like a certain game that another person might like. 2k 11 demo is good but they didn't put enough out, but i did like the gameplay, Elite 11 need to work on certain things but i love it and once i got use to the controls, honestly i'm having alot of fun with it. I'm getting both games but for different reason for each.

23 · 09-25-2010, 08:50 PM

Re: NBA Elite 11 Demo Roundtable

That video is crazy.

Thats exactly why this rountable discussion went down, but its not like it matters because Apex is not the outside gamer either. His hardcore nitpicking doesnt matter.

**ccoaxum** · 09-25-2010, 08:53 PM

the controls is not the problem, if any really think the controls is the reason they don't like the game then they just need to take more time with the game or just don't get the game. The problem is tho, the players awarness on d-fense and how they play as a team. The problem is the way the players move on the game, how the players don't out run each other when they need to, this is big since you don't have a turbo button so rEAnimator please fix that in the patch 2. The problem is that people are feeling a huge difference when they dribble, block, steal,shooting when they play the game. ( that's to a certain extent, cause some areas you can feel difference in my opinion. other then the graphics as in the skin texture, cause they look like themselves but look like cartoons but other then that i live game, and not saying everyone should too but just saying some ppl should critique the game the right way.(like it or not)

NBA Elite 11 Demo Roundtable

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