NBA Elite 11 Demo Roundtable

[LingeringRegime]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Demo Roundtable

In the end the consumer just wants a NBA game that plays like the NBA. With it being as close to sim as possible. It is like EA forgot to put the NBA in the game. Elite is more like a good pick up game of basketball. Nothing wrong with that. It's just not NBA basketball. Smooth out the gameplay and make the NBA players play like themselves and you got a game. Hopefully it does not take 5 years.

That's the best way to say it. It isn't rocket science. Learn from your competition, but don't stop there. Do what they do, just do it better than them. No need to reinvent the wheel this late in the game.

One more important test. Does it pass the wife test?

When your wife walks into the room and you are playing a game does she say, "What game is that?" or does she say, "They are playing basketball already, I thought the playoffs were just finished?" Elite looks like a video game on the TV screen, the competition looks like its real life counterpart.

[SBartlett]

Doesn't have to be. Remember the NFL 2K tackling system. Let's get this straight. Every game will have static animations. What makes them dynamic is how much one makes slight alterations to those animations as they play. Some you can break out of at certain points. Others, you can overlay changes to parts by using another animation or some other physical dynamic. Technically, I can claim a game never uses a static animation if that game uses IK every frame.

So, really, why should we care about the tech? If it works and makes the better game, then who cares if it uses multi-actor animations or not? Who cares if it uses key framed animations instead of mocap? Just make a good game that represents the sport. The tech should only be a tool. Not a feature on the back of the box!

So in my "State of the Association" article, I touch on 2K's ability to represent the sports well - football or basketball. In my unedited version of my article, it's in the Tighter Controls section...this part was removed during the editing process. I guess I was getting a bit biased, but it's just my commentary on the games:

http://www.operationsports.com/SBartlett/blog/10467-the-state-of-the-association/

So what I'm getting at here is the same argument your all making right now. Was a total revamp of the physics in Elite necessary? Did EA feel like they hit a wall in terms of control with Live10? That the ceiling was close or something?

2K doesn't use any of this one to one physics. Some of the animation collisions are scripted, some aren't but the game is so deep it doesn't even matter.

[BlakeSabbath84]

13/14 from 3 point range with Kobe on the Elite demo, in 1 quarter! The only missed shot was one that was blocked, and all of them were right in front of ray allen. I just pulled a jumper in his face. (This was on superstar difficulty btw.) How is this simulation basketball??? For the all the people that will actually buy this game, i feel sorry for them because online is just gonna be a bunch of cheesers

The first line says it all.

And like many have already said this WILL kill online play.

Once you have that stick motion nailed then it's simply far to easy to nail three ball after three ball.

The only way I could see them fixing this is by the "green zone" getting smaller and smaller as you continue to hit shots one after the other. Even then it's debatable if you could even call that a fix.

[Fngb3]

I have another question somewhat similar to the specifics of passing like I asked earlier. And I got a very helpful response then.

With shooting, I know the width of allowable error for a shot decreases the further you are from the basket. I also know the power and window in which you need to release the shot decreases as well.

Based on watching the demo I would like to know if there are other factors that affect these 'windows.' I know a blocked shot can happen any time the defender is in position to get one and times their jump properly, but other than that, does the presence of a defender decrease these windows?

I mean, the closer the proximity of a defender, the smaller those windows for error should be. That seems something that is supremely manageable with the current mechanics, no? Heck, maybe it's already in there and I'm not seeing/feeling it. But I feel like if I get a shot off, and my defender doesn't block me, it's as though the defender isn't there at all.

That right there seems like the kind of thing that can detract from the team-ness of the experience. If I feel as long as my shot isn't blocked that I might as well be alone in the practice gym. Of course those shots go in all the time. But that's not how it works. Am I over explaining at this point? Is this already part of the game anyway? If it is, I think the effect of a nearby defender/well contested shot needs to have a greater negative influence on the paramters of a succesful shot.

SBartlett, maybe you can answer the above question about the shooting particulars...

[Drose420]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Demo Roundtable

For rEAnimator:
I have put about six hours into this game examining it. I have no EA or 2k bias. Here are some improvements I believe will inhance this game:

1. Though I really like the new control system, it can be improved. There is some lag time between you action and the players. You lose alot of your stick ability when you post up. I kept trying to use the spin move to spin off the defender in the post but nothing happens. Stealing feels really awkward unless your in the overhead view and it looks even worse.

2. Anything you can do to improve this game visually please do it. You're competing against a game that looks amazing. The first thing you notice when the game starts is the players all pacing simultaneously. The camera angles make the game look bad especially while inbounding. the game looks much better from broadcasting perspective but plays much better in overhead. I think there might be a way to better execute the overhead camera.
2.5 Please just take out the cut scene where it looks like the player just got done taking it up the ***.

3. THIS GAME NEEDS A TURBO BUTTON. Basketball is a game based off burst of power. The player will never have complete control if he doesn't control the character's burst. Cutting through the lane with D-Rose is going to be a thousand times sweeter with the stick if you also control his explosiveness.

4. It still seems like you get sucked in at some points on both offense or defense. sometimes I would go to double team a player but my character was getting sucked towards the previous guy i was defending. on offense you'll be on a break away and get sucked in to the defender. I think a turbo button could also help this.

5. AI is pretty stupid.

6. All players feel genaric. Could use custom moves or just different moves.

7. You cant back anyone up at all while playing the post. Bynum cant back up Rondo?

The game needs to feel and look more fluid overall.

[Onpoint17]

Rebooting is one thing. Shooting yourself in the foot is another. Which is what I feel that EA has done to this basketball franchise. In a one-on-one environment (the practice gym) the new controls were innovative and nice to play around with. In a 5-on-5 game, it seemed like everything went to H***.

[rEAnimator]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Demo Roundtable

With all due respect, I think you are well aware of the flaws in your CPU/AI. You continue to pick and choose which post to respond to and that's your right to do so. But please don't don't try to throw the wool over our eyes, like you weren't aware of these issues. I post numerous times, even before the demo dropped asking you to post video of and CPU/AI ran offense that's not the Thunder.(Check my posts if you don't believe me) I even mention the Suns and Spurs as choices. Now you saying that you didn't play against the CPU much. Is that not an aspect of your game that you have to make sure is up to par? I really found that statement hard to believe. Another thing hard to believe. For example, like the quote below.



You should be well aware of this point. This point that Live 10 seems to be better than Elite 11, was beaten to death. And there a tons of profound reason for the dislike. Let's say you knock the controls out the park. There is more to a game than control. Your game lacks, individuality/Signature, it lacks realistic AI/CPU ran offense, verticals as mention before are way too high, but you mention why this one done, but it is still a problem. When it comes to shooting, i don't think ratings play no part at all, I shouldn't be able to go 8/10 from 3 with Gasol b/c i have his release point down. And I'm sure you are aware Bynum doesn't have handles like D. Rose but he has the ability to all the dribbles moves in the game. This is weird b/c i remember the diary you guys released showing Bynum losing the ball when doing a behind the back move, yet it doesn't happen in the demo, at least it doesn't happen to me.

And finally http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xxb6L8vV614

Don't worry i wont post again b/c like someone mention before, I think we are beating a dead horse.

OK, I'm not sure exactly what you mean, but I intentionally avoid AI specific questions because that's stepsix's domain (he's the AI lead) and I don't know the AI very well anyway.

I haven't played against the AI much because I was focused on control and animation for most of the year, and because I was on vacation at the end of the project when the AI usually comes together and difficulty levels are tuned.

There's no funny business going on here.

And the reason I said what I did about the Live 10 is better than Elite comment is because I completely and wholeheartedly disagree with the statement, which is why I'm trying to understand it better as I realize I must be missing something critical.

[rEAnimator]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Demo Roundtable

I have another question somewhat similar to the specifics of passing like I asked earlier. And I got a very helpful response then.

With shooting, I know the width of allowable error for a shot decreases the further you are from the basket. I also know the power and window in which you need to release the shot decreases as well.

Based on watching the demo I would like to know if there are other factors that affect these 'windows.' I know a blocked shot can happen any time the defender is in position to get one and times their jump properly, but other than that, does the presence of a defender decrease these windows?

I mean, the closer the proximity of a defender, the smaller those windows for error should be. That seems something that is supremely manageable with the current mechanics, no? Heck, maybe it's already in there and I'm not seeing/feeling it. But I feel like if I get a shot off, and my defender doesn't block me, it's as though the defender isn't there at all.

That right there seems like the kind of thing that can detract from the team-ness of the experience. If I feel as long as my shot isn't blocked that I might as well be alone in the practice gym. Of course those shots go in all the time. But that's not how it works. Am I over explaining at this point? Is this already part of the game anyway? If it is, I think the effect of a nearby defender/well contested shot needs to have a greater negative influence on the paramters of a succesful shot.

Yes, the proximity of the defender and the "difficulty" of the shot (fade, runner, etc) will dictate the size of the error tolerance along with the distance from the hoop.

When you go in replay you can see that change dynamically based on the context, unfortunately there's no replay in the demo.

You may be able to see it in the 1v1 practice mode.

Also, as I stated before the demo was released, final shot tuning was done after the demo build was cut. We are also collecting metrics from the demo and will re-tune based on that data.

In that sense the demo is a beta test for our shot tuning.

[LingeringRegime]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Demo Roundtable

And the reason I said what I did about the Live 10 is better than Elite comment is because I completely and wholeheartedly disagree with the statement, which is why I'm trying to understand it better as I realize I must be missing something critical.

Live 10 had much better spacing (meaning the players on the court were spread out further in the half court offense.) There were differences among the players. In Elite everyone can cross over, and put it behind their back. In Live 10 you couldn't do that, which is more realistic.

The animations were better in Live 10, they were smoother. The animations in Elite remind me of the spastic looking ones back in Live 07. I don't know if you guys mo cap still, but if not maybe you should get back to that.

Maybe Elite is better than Live with 10 human players on the court. That's fine, but I never play the game that way. I always play against the CPU.

[jordankobewade7]

OK, I'm not sure exactly what you mean, but I intentionally avoid AI specific questions because that's stepsix's domain (he's the AI lead) and I don't know the AI very well anyway.

I haven't played against the AI much because I was focused on control and animation for most of the year, and because I was on vacation at the end of the project when the AI usually comes together and difficulty levels are tuned.

There's no funny business going on here.

And the reason I said what I did about the Live 10 is better than Elite comment is because I completely and wholeheartedly disagree with the statement, which is why I'm trying to understand it better as I realize I must be missing something critical.

How could you say that elite is better than live10?elite is a broken unfinished game..maybe in the long run it will develop to be better,but as it stands this game doesn't even have a franchise mode?or did u guys just slap thatsame one u guys have had for six years into the package and say its all good...and you guys are wondering ysales have gone down...its because you don't focus on the right features and are trying to constantly hit it out of the park with all the new live runs and dynamic seasons,which was kool btw,and fiba...point is you have to get the core downbefore you try adding all the whip creme and cherries...

Did you hear the czar on the OS radio show?he unleashed all of our frustrations on what you guys have done here...it just doesn't make sense,I read ur explanation too,in one of the other threads... still doesn't make sense

[Dantecamp21]

I've been reading this thread from the very beginning, waiting for my turn to share my thoughts.

I'll get this out of the way right from the start: I loved Live 10 and I believe NBA 2K11 will be a stellar effort from Visual Concepts, I'll buy it and my thoughts on NBA Elite 11 aren't related to that game. Also, I was one of the guys who demolished NBA Elite 11 on the Demo Impressions thread saying things like "this game is the biggest disappointment of my gaming life".

Since then, a lot has changed. I put on the time to learn the new controls and came to be truly appreciative of what this game can offer if you give it a fair chance. I agree with the community on many of the game's shortcomings: weird animations, generic feel, foot-planting, just to name a few...but there are positives as well.

For instance, taking a closer look at the rebounding/blocking animations which are the ones gathering most of the heat, while I'll conceive that they indeed look strange, at least they aren't broken from a functional standpoint. What I'm saying is: you can go up for a board/block and succeed.

While it's easy to take things like this for granted since every available action in any videogame should work just fine (in a FPS you pull the Right Trigger and the character will shoot), that's not always the case when it comes to sports games.

While I'm playing the demo I'll say to myself: this time around I'll try to dominate the boards and patrol the paint with Gasol or KG, and the game will offer me the tools to do that without cheating (ball warping/pre-determined outcomes). From there, we get to a number of variants that should define the outcome of my being successful: player ratings/tendencies, game difficulty, user skill, etc. If all of those things are in place you at least have a shot to succeed and that, in my opinion, makes the experience very powerful. That's what you do when you are a kid playing basketball on a court with your friends, you say to yourself: today I'll pass like Magic, venture into the paint like MJ, be quick like Zeke.

Unfortunately, at the moment, I could attempt to shut the paint down with Rondo or Kobe and succeed as well, which suggests the ratings system isn't impacting the game like it should. That breaks the immersion of the game and pushes away the sim audience. Anyway, I've seen a lot of cool unpredictable moments (and sadly, a lot of weird ones as well) while blocking and rebounding just to mention these aspects of the game.

I could say the exact same things about shooting the ball (which I found incredibly fun and rewarding), driving to the hoop, calling for picks, and running plays.

To sum it all (in my humble view): despite all of its glaring flaws, the game brings some refreshing concepts to the table, it's not THAT far from being a simulation and can be fun if you are inclined to overlook those things (which 90% of you aren't, and rightfully so). Somehow I was able to, and I'm enjoying it for what it is.

The thing is: the little cracks all over its foundation make it looks like everything is broken, which it isn't the case.

[rEAnimator]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Demo Roundtable

I've been reading this thread from the very beginning, waiting for my turn to share my thoughts.

I'll get this out of the way right from the start: I loved Live 10 and I believe NBA 2K11 will be a stellar effort from Visual Concepts, I'll buy it and my thoughts on NBA Elite 11 aren't related to that game. Also, I was one of the guys who demolished NBA Elite 11 on the Demo Impressions thread saying things like "this game is the biggest disappointment of my gaming life".

Since then, a lot has changed. I put on the time to learn the new controls and came to be truly appreciative of what this game can offer if you give it a fair chance. I agree with the community on many of the game's shortcomings: weird animations, generic feel, foot-planting, just to name a few...but there are positives as well.

For instance, taking a closer look at the rebounding/blocking animations which are the ones gathering most of the heat, while I'll conceive that they indeed look strange, at least they aren't broken from a functional standpoint. What I'm saying is: you can go up for a board/block and succeed.

While it's easy to take things like this for granted since every available action in any videogame should work just fine (in a FPS you pull the Right Trigger and the character will shoot), that's not always the case when it comes to sports games.

While I'm playing the demo I'll say to myself: this time around I'll try to dominate the boards and patrol the paint with Gasol or KG, and the game will offer me the tools to do that without cheating (ball warping/pre-determined outcomes). From there, we get to a number of variants that should define the outcome of my being successful: player ratings/tendencies, game difficulty, user skill, etc. If all of those things are in place you at least have a shot to succeed and that, in my opinion, makes the experience very powerful. That's what you do when you are a kid playing basketball on a court with your friends, you say to yourself: today I'll pass like Magic, venture into the paint like MJ, be quick like Zeke.

Unfortunately, at the moment, I could attempt to shut the paint down with Rondo or Kobe and succeed as well, which suggests the ratings system isn't impacting the game like it should. That breaks the immersion of the game and pushes away the sim audience. Anyway, I've seen a lot of cool unpredictable moments (and sadly, a lot of weird ones as well) while blocking and rebounding just to mention these aspects of the game.

I could say the exact same things about shooting the ball (which I found incredibly fun and rewarding), driving to the hoop, calling for picks, and running plays.

To sum it all (in my humble view): despite all of its glaring flaws, the game brings some refreshing concepts to the table, it's not THAT far from being a simulation and can be fun if you are inclined to overlook those things (which 90% of you aren't, and rightfully so). Somehow I was able to, and I'm enjoying it for what it is.

The thing is: the little cracks all over its foundation make it looks like everything is broken, which it isn't the case.

In my humble opinion this is the single most balanced and fair impression of Elite I have read.

Thank you for that.

I've seen several other people draw the same conclusion as you did, after having posted a very harsh first impression.

We clearly made mistakes, and one of those is the first impression people get as a result of the rough edges.

Lesson learned there I think.

I can only hope that with experiences like this, and a solid first patch to address problems, we can start building momentum again.

[Court_vision]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Demo Roundtable

I've been reading this thread from the very beginning, waiting for my turn to share my thoughts.

I'll get this out of the way right from the start: I loved Live 10 and I believe NBA 2K11 will be a stellar effort from Visual Concepts, I'll buy it and my thoughts on NBA Elite 11 aren't related to that game. Also, I was one of the guys who demolished NBA Elite 11 on the Demo Impressions thread saying things like "this game is the biggest disappointment of my gaming life".

Since then, a lot has changed. I put on the time to learn the new controls and came to be truly appreciative of what this game can offer if you give it a fair chance. I agree with the community on many of the game's shortcomings: weird animations, generic feel, foot-planting, just to name a few...but there are positives as well.

For instance, taking a closer look at the rebounding/blocking animations which are the ones gathering most of the heat, while I'll conceive that they indeed look strange, at least they aren't broken from a functional standpoint. What I'm saying is: you can go up for a board/block and succeed.

While it's easy to take things like this for granted since every available action in any videogame should work just fine (in a FPS you pull the Right Trigger and the character will shoot), that's not always the case when it comes to sports games.

While I'm playing the demo I'll say to myself: this time around I'll try to dominate the boards and patrol the paint with Gasol or KG, and the game will offer me the tools to do that without cheating (ball warping/pre-determined outcomes). From there, we get to a number of variants that should define the outcome of my being successful: player ratings/tendencies, game difficulty, user skill, etc. If all of those things are in place you at least have a shot to succeed and that, in my opinion, makes the experience very powerful. That's what you do when you are a kid playing basketball on a court with your friends, you say to yourself: today I'll pass like Magic, venture into the paint like MJ, be quick like Zeke.

Unfortunately, at the moment, I could attempt to shut the paint down with Rondo or Kobe and succeed as well, which suggests the ratings system isn't impacting the game like it should. That breaks the immersion of the game and pushes away the sim audience. Anyway, I've seen a lot of cool unpredictable moments (and sadly, a lot of weird ones as well) while blocking and rebounding just to mention these aspects of the game.

I could say the exact same things about shooting the ball (which I found incredibly fun and rewarding), driving to the hoop, calling for picks, and running plays.

To sum it all (in my humble view): despite all of its glaring flaws, the game brings some refreshing concepts to the table, it's not THAT far from being a simulation and can be fun if you are inclined to overlook those things (which 90% of you aren't, and rightfully so). Somehow I was able to, and I'm enjoying it for what it is.

The thing is: the little cracks all over its foundation make it looks like everything is broken, which it isn't the case.

Very good post.

I also think a lot of the aspects are good and some are very SIM like. I'm enjoying the demo much more than I first did and I have to say that comparisons with LIVE 07 and SONY NBA are grossly unfair. Those two games were Hall Of Fame bad.

This game is a hell of a lot better than them...and some aspects are very good.

Unfortunately, some aspects...too many...are very, very poor and that's one reason the general impressions have been bad. It's not even debatable...some aspects are extremely poor.

Driving to the hoop off a pick...laying the ball up with your opposite hand as a shot blocker comes across...hitting a perfect J = all very nice.

The game's big problem IMO is that for every one of those 'nice' moments there's at least two "WTF" moments...

I won't be buying the retail version...but i will be interested to see post release if people say that some of the bad things have been ironed out / real team styles are noticeable with more teams...i.e. Utah and the Suns are completely different...and what kind of impact a patch has. The DEMO hasn't completely turned me off the game just yet. Post release feedback will be vital and I really want to see different team styles.

[Halfamazing]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Demo Roundtable

The game is sick for me looking pass some of the bugs.
Fact is if shootin is to easy theres a slider to make it harder.
Only thing I dont like are the oops working to much, and cpu play, everything else is good enough to pass........ Game is addictingly fun if you appreciate it.

[Dantecamp21]

Let's hope the development team stands by its vision and keeps supporting the product post launch, otherwise this whole dev. cycle will be lost. I'll take rEAnimator being here through all of this struggle as an indicator that they'll do just that.

A lot of people that don't like the game as it stands right now, will buy it anyway just to put their hands on NBA Jam. If the patch really improves things, then those who bought it won't have nothing to loose trying to give it a second chance since they already own the game.