Who wins their next MNC first, Miami or Notre Dame?

[MassNole]

This morning on TomahawkNation.com there was an update on a previous article talking about Miami's unwillingness to go all in to compete at the highest levels of CFB, largely due to being a small private school that has begun to focus on academics more than championships. Notre Dame is in the same boat of being stuck in the mindset of academics first but still believing you can do that an win a Championship.

Financially speaking Miami can't afford to pay a top coach. As it stands actually Randy Shannon makes only a little more than FSU DC Mark Stoops and only earns one half the salary of (non-BCS) TCU's Gary Patterson. Not only that but Miami can't afford to pay their assistants what other schools can to get top assistants, which is needed to compete at the highest level. Whereas Notre Dame has more money than they know what to do with and can afford to pay both a top flight coach and staff. Problem here has been after they were jilted by Urban Meyer their evaluation of coaching hires has been abysmal at best.

Both have seen their once dominant recruiting tactics fizzle in recent years. Due to Rivals and Youtube Miami doesn't have the advantage of finding largely unseen talents in Dade/Broward counties. Similarly Notre Dame doesn't have their television exclusivity to really pitch as now every BCS level team plays almost every game on television, with again the internet providing the ability to even see out of region games.

As for the academics, neither school seems willing to admit the questionable kids you need to win an MNC. Instead they go after kids who have the grades but as we've seen these kids aren't the ones you need to win at a high level. Something will eventually need to give at one of these schools to be allowed more discretion in recruiting.

So what is your take on this? IMHO because of the money involved Notre Dame will do so before Miami.

[NDAlum]

Re: Who wins their next MNC first, Miami or Notre Dame?

With my unbiased opinion I have to go with the Irish...

[Buckeyes_Doc]

Re: Who wins their next MNC first, Miami or Notre Dame?

I think it will be a long time before either team wins their next MNC, but I am leaning more towards Miami.

[Primerica]

Re: Who wins their next MNC first, Miami or Notre Dame?

The U, we have the talent and have turn around Coker awful recruiting. Besides you should put your crappy Noles on this list. They suck just as much as we do. Your Noles haven't did anything great and Miami>FSU over the last several years.

[Cebby]

Re: Who wins their next MNC first, Miami or Notre Dame?

Both are so far away that there's no way to make any sort of accurate call.

However, gun to my head I'd go Miami because they at least seem to get athletes. The highly rated kids who will go to play for a mediocre Miami team are far closer to championship players than the kids who will always go to Notre Dame.

[MassNole]

Re: Who wins their next MNC first, Miami or Notre Dame?

The U, we have the talent and have turn around Coker awful recruiting. Besides you should put your crappy Noles on this list. They suck just as much as we do. Your Noles haven't did anything great and Miami>FSU over the last several years.

One: This was a comparison of two private schools who used to be powerhouses, as such discussion of a public school with different standards didn't seem to make sense. As I pointed out Miami only pays their HBC a little more than FSU pays their Defensive Coordinator. And finally on the public school part, FSU can basically take whoever they want so long as the Clearing House lets them in, Miami and to a much, much larger extent Notre Dame are not allowed to do that because of their admissions departments.

Two:

They suck just as much as we do.

Did you miss the complete beat down FSU gave to Miami a few weeks ago? Since the last of Butch Davis' recruits left the program in 2004 FSU has gone 4-2 against Miami. Historically speaking a Jimbo Fisher coached team averages nearly (if now not over) 40 points a game against a Randy Shannon coached team (dating back to when they were coordinators). And well at the very least since Miami joined the ACC they have not even won their division, much less say the ACC. Hard to believe of the three Big East teams the ACC took that Miami would prove to be the weakest link.

Three:
If you really want to compare the two looking forward be my guest, but at this time FSU has more resources at their disposal than Miami does and a significantly better coaching staff across the board. Not to mention since Fisher has come aboard FSU has generally been beating Miami in recruiting by a large margin and that gap is only getting bigger and bigger with each passing year. The thing is FSU isn't just out recruiting Miami, they are going into South Florida to take whoever they want and only fighting with Florida for these kids services.

[Amoo316]

Re: Who wins their next MNC first, Miami or Notre Dame?

OT:

Spoiler

The thing is FSU isn't just out recruiting Miami, they are going into South Florida to take whoever they want and only fighting with Florida for these kids services.

If you really believe this then you are more jaded then even I thought you were. There's at least half a dozen other teams recruiting the state of Florida with just as much if not more success then FSU at the moment.

I don't really know which way to go on this. Miami still has the whole "The U" thing going for them, and I think today more then in the past students of this generation are more likely to be turned off by a very religious Notre Dame program.

On the flip side, ND clearly has the better fan support and obviously have the budget to bring in any coach or coordinators they can get to agree to a contract. Because I believe talent only gets you so far and it takes good coaching to have MNC caliber football teams I'm going with ND.

[iAM-IncReDiBLe-]

Re: Who wins their next MNC first, Miami or Notre Dame?

Miami just needs better coaching. We also need a new AD but that won't happen anytime soon.

[z Revis]

Re: Who wins their next MNC first, Miami or Notre Dame?

Put a gun to my head and I'll go Irish just based off pure homerism and the money that ND has.

Although I feel Miami is closer right now, but it looks to be going downhill.

[Hooe]

Re: Who wins their next MNC first, Miami or Notre Dame?

Both are so far away that there's no way to make any sort of accurate call.

However, gun to my head I'd go Miami because they at least seem to get athletes. The highly rated kids who will go to play for a mediocre Miami team are far closer to championship players than the kids who will always go to Notre Dame.

I find myself agreeing with this.

Also, the ACC is so bad that if Miami (or any ACC team) were to so much as to have an honest-to-goodness really good quarterback (no, there isn't one in the entire conference right now, other than MAYBE Tyrod Taylor simply because he is the best playmaker in the conference), they'd run roughshod over the conference and have an easy road to a few BCS bowls.

[MassNole]

Re: Who wins their next MNC first, Miami or Notre Dame?

OT:

Spoiler

If you really believe this then you are more jaded then even I thought you were. There's at least half a dozen other teams recruiting the state of Florida with just as much if not more success then FSU at the moment.

Spoiler

Since Fisher's first full season at FSU (Class of 2008) there have been 18 5* level recruits from Florida, FSU has signed or received commitments from 7 of them (I am counting Jeff Luc and Demar Dorsey as 5*s via ESPN). In this season when the rankings are done I expect there to be 2 more players added in Jeff Driskel and Nick O'Leary (is on ESPN) and that FSU will land commitments from O'Leary and Tony Steward bringing the total to 9 of 20. So as I said other than fighting it out Florida (who has commitments from 5 of the 20 counting Driskel and Gary Brown whose since left the program, 6 if Blakely makes the jump). Miami has commitments from just 2 of the 20, with no other school having more than one. And as for the South Florida portion of this, the only South Florida kid to leave the state was Patrick Peterson and well lets not visit how that happened. So really who has been beating FSU in recruiting Florida other than arguably Florida?

EDIT: Sorry Bama has two 5* commitments from Florida, I missed Clinton-Dix when adding them up. Point remains however that neither him or Richardson were South Florida recruits with Richardson from North Florida and Clinton-Dix from Orlando.

[XxKrebsxX]

Re: Who wins their next MNC first, Miami or Notre Dame?

Spoiler

Since Fisher's first full season at FSU (Class of 2008) there have been 18 5* level recruits from Florida, FSU has signed or received commitments from 7 of them (I am counting Jeff Luc and Demar Dorsey as 5*s via ESPN). In this season when the rankings are done I expect there to be 2 more players added in Jeff Driskel and Nick O'Leary (is on ESPN) and that FSU will land commitments from O'Leary and Tony Steward bringing the total to 9 of 20. So as I said other than fighting it out Florida (who has commitments from 5 of the 20 counting Driskel and Gary Brown whose since left the program, 6 if Blakely makes the jump). Miami has commitments from just 2 of the 20, with no other school having more than one. And as for the South Florida portion of this, the only South Florida kid to leave the state was Patrick Peterson and well lets not visit how that happened. So really who has been beating FSU in recruiting Florida other than arguably Florida?

EDIT: Sorry Bama has two 5* commitments from Florida, I missed Clinton-Dix when adding them up. Point remains however that neither him or Richardson were South Florida recruits with Richardson from North Florida and Clinton-Dix from Orlando.

How many National Championships does Florida State have?

Sorry, I just couldn't resist.

[MassNole]

Re: Who wins their next MNC first, Miami or Notre Dame?

How many National Championships does Florida State have?

Sorry, I just couldn't resist.

Wow Miami is becoming Notre Dame with the same rhetoric.

[Primerica]

Re: Who wins their next MNC first, Miami or Notre Dame?

One: This was a comparison of two private schools who used to be powerhouses, as such discussion of a public school with different standards didn't seem to make sense. As I pointed out Miami only pays their HBC a little more than FSU pays their Defensive Coordinator. And finally on the public school part, FSU can basically take whoever they want so long as the Clearing House lets them in, Miami and to a much, much larger extent Notre Dame are not allowed to do that because of their admissions departments.

Two:
Did you miss the complete beat down FSU gave to Miami a few weeks ago? Since the last of Butch Davis' recruits left the program in 2004 FSU has gone 4-2 against Miami. Historically speaking a Jimbo Fisher coached team averages nearly (if now not over) 40 points a game against a Randy Shannon coached team (dating back to when they were coordinators). And well at the very least since Miami joined the ACC they have not even won their division, much less say the ACC. Hard to believe of the three Big East teams the ACC took that Miami would prove to be the weakest link.

Three:
If you really want to compare the two looking forward be my guest, but at this time FSU has more resources at their disposal than Miami does and a significantly better coaching staff across the board. Not to mention since Fisher has come aboard FSU has generally been beating Miami in recruiting by a large margin and that gap is only getting bigger and bigger with each passing year. The thing is FSU isn't just out recruiting Miami, they are going into South Florida to take whoever they want and only fighting with Florida for these kids services.

Just like your kickers, your post went wide left. I don't see how you can justify being better than Miami. We were ranked higher in the last 10 years. We beat you guys much more than you beat us in the last 10 years. We have a better ranking than you losers overall the past 10 years. In Shannon era we are 2-2 v. FSU so... You guys are in the superweak Atlantic and still sorry as all knows what. I can't believe you took a hit at us when you just lost to NCST and unlike us didn't lose your starter in the 2nd qt in a 0-0 game.

FSU should be the embarrassed ones, we joined your conference and you haven't s*** since. Please man, even GT has been class compared to you. Your such a homer, it's not like you guys are even close. We return just about everyone next season and you guys have a 1st round QB all while playing like a mid tier Mountain West school.

[MassNole]

Re: Who wins their next MNC first, Miami or Notre Dame?

Just like your kickers, your post went wide left. I don't see how you can justify being better than Miami. We were ranked higher in the last 10 years. We beat you guys much more than you beat us in the last 10 years. We have a better ranking than you losers overall the past 10 years. In Shannon era we are 2-2 v. FSU so... You guys are in the superweak Atlantic and still sorry as all knows what. I can't believe you took a hit at us when you just lost to NCST and unlike us didn't lose your starter in the 2nd qt in a 0-0 game.

FSU should be the embarrassed ones, we joined your conference and you haven't s*** since. Please man, even GT has been class compared to you. Your such a homer, it's not like you guys are even close. We return just about everyone next season and you guys have a 1st round QB all while playing like mid tier Mountain West school.

Lets call a horse a horse, Shannon was 2-1 against Bobby Bowden in 3 close games that amounted to little more than ******s in a slapping contest. Shannon is 0-1 against Fisher as a HBC in a game that was over before halftime. This FSU staff isn't the group of dinosaurs and unqualified chums Bowden had, this is actually a good staff whose DC is the same guy who coached up the likes of Ed Reed and Sean Taylor as Miami's secondary coach during their time at The U.

If you want to compare losing games to N.C. State (who I don't think anyone will debate would beat Miami this year) to Virginia (a team FSU beat by 20 on the road) then so be it. But either way I don't see how that would do anything to offset a 28 point loss at home.

The tides of this series as turned since Butch Davis' stamp on the program as faded, and as I said prior since the last of his recruits left the program they are 2-4 against FSU. As the linked article pointed out and is the point I've tried to make is that the culture change of not only the program but the landscape of CFB is nearly incalculable. Those days are gone now, Miami either can't get those local studs in because of grades or because they are no longer undiscovered.

If you want to look ahead to next season, FSU returns pretty much their entire defense who will all have another full year of Stoops' coaching (unless he gets poached, then Greg Hudson steps in as the DC in waiting). On offense FSU will lose 3 starters in Ponder, Rodney Hudson, and Ryan McMahon, of whom Rodney Hudson is the biggest loss. As for Ponder, as we were discussing in the game thread from this week, it's clear to those who have watched him that his arm strength has been trashed from his shoulder and elbow injuries and that he isn't physically the same kid from 2009. I know Miami returns a lot next year too, but well coming off a 28 point loss and considering Brandon Harris is likely NFL bound, with the game in Tally why should FSU worry?

I also don't see how you can say FSU hasn't done ****, when they have actually won the conference since Miami joined, whereas Miami has failed to win their division. Sure VT and BC (to a lesser extent) can talk about that since they've each out performed FSU to date in the ACC, but well as I said Miami is the weak link of the expansion. And as you said Miami joined FSU's conference, but doesn't even have a Divisional title to show for it. This was the same school selling shirts before the 2004 season that said the ACC stood for Another Canes Conference. How's that worked out?

Finally just take a look at recruiting, I'll admit in the rankings Miami edged out FSU in 2008, but at this point through attrition FSU's class may have jumped Miami's from that year. In 2009 FSU opened up a gap and in 2010 that gap only got larger even with the late gift of Seantrel Henderson. Looking forward to 2011 FSU is putting together a class that will be in the mix for the #1 overall class (Alabama likely wins, I just said in the mix) and well Miami's class at this point has less total commits (6) than FSU has from the ESPNU 150 (8) and the disparity only looks to get worse looking at each team's remaining recruiting board.