Madden NFL Designers Podcast #2

[huskerwr38]

Re: Madden NFL Designers Podcast #2

Always a chance for big changes. 10 was tackling-focused. 11 was locomotion and blocking-focused. 12 will be ?

That is disappointing that 10 was tackling focus when the tackles in Madden are an eye sore and need to be reworked again. Tackles are by far the most unrealistic thing about Madden because of certain things like when one player engages in tackling there can not be any interaction by any of the other players to influence the tackle in progress. And also the "bowling pin" tackles are so horrible.

Another reason is that tackles don't really seem to follow any natural physics. For instance, I can come in full speed hit a guy (who is just standing there like a QB) from the front and we'll fall forward instead of flying backwards.

[BezO]

Re: Madden NFL Designers Podcast #2

So just to clarify - you think that out of the box, a game should take 2 hours to complete with the realistic amounts of penalties?

You don't agree with our stated vision of creating that 100% accurate representation of football but actually making the default gameplay settings and sliders a more approachable and enjoyable experience?

Welcome back Ian! Of course you come on during the weekend when I don't post. Hopefully you'll stick around.

I'm curious about these casual gamers everyone speaks of. By what's said, I never know if they're talking about actual casual gamers, who by definition don't play that often, or arcade-type players who play often but are not looking for an authentic NFL experience. I can't imagine you all spend so much time aiming at true casual gamers.

PS I'd love to be on this forum more but when so many people have seemingly lost trust in our ability to deliver our vision it's really too frustrating and takes a toll personally. As you all know the proof is in the pudding. In August hopefully we'll change your mind.</sigh>

The plus is that you can run these ideas by us and get feedback.

I did listen, but talk only gets so far. Strategy Pad and Gameplanning and GameFlow didn't blow away the hardcore for sure, but those are tiny miniscule drops of dev investment. New locomotion systems on the other hand, are massive. Online team play was an EA mandate...it also was massive. We listened because it seemed like everyone was in unison that we focus on core gameplay changes, and I think it upset too many people when they realize how much time it takes to actually do something like that. Again in the podcasts I keep talking about not putting all the eggs in one basket again as a major learning.

Those smaller dev investments add up. And from my point of view, they were the most noticable improvements. At what point do you attack the big jobs?

When it comes to realistic elements that other games have accomplished and Madden hasn't, I can only imagine the current "engines" make it harder for you guys. At some point the big jobs have to be addressed. Are we waiting for NEXT gen for things like tiered defensive play calling, gap/contain assignments in every defense, engaged player mobility, pause menu formation subs on offense, defense & special teams, ect?

Does EA really believe that new & casual gamers are more profitible than loyal fans?

I am not gung-ho for more pre-play options because they actually AREN'T sim, but many have made the point that because play-calling doesn't have the depth you want, these are a way to get around that restriction. It's something we're looking into.

At what point do you address the depth and abandon the band-aids? At this rate, many of us feel you all will never produce a simulation. It may have been you, but I remember reading something from EA that implied you all regret "rebuilding" the game for this generation of systems. I'm guessing you all won't be doing that again. But that makes me curious about when these big fixes get done.

I think NBA 2K & The Show got away with keeping their last gen "engines" because they were more flexible & easy to build on. Madden's "engines" seem much more rigid.

Last year was a 'back-to-basics' approach from the playbook guys to ensure that all the plays that existed were actually drawn up correctly and a house-cleaning to make sure all the new run-blocking assignment AI was implemented correctly. I'll talk to them about filling them back out again.

I remember there being space issues regarding the playbooks. It seems like you all don't have enough room to include a satisfactory number of plays with the current system. How about re-tiering it?

-Personnel first, instead of formation
-Formation next, but include EVERY formation possible with selected personnel. For example, selecting base personnel will allow for I-formation, 3 "WRs" one of which is a split out HB, 4 "WRs" with HB & FB split out, ect. As it stands, those other base personnel formations are grouped separate.
-Then the play, but have 1 grouping of plays that adjusts to the formation selected. For example, there's just one strong-side isolation, but it can be run from any 2-back set... even 1-back set with a split HB motioning back to the backfield. Same could be done with route combinations.

Something that would cut down on space yet still add more plays is desparately needed.

Ugh, can we for once not blow quotes out of proportion? Is that the situation we are in here? I loved those features too. In fact I was the designer that put those in.

Let's face it - a defense isn't built at pre-play with each player actually changing their assignments all over the field. We all know that isn't REALISTIC or SIM. But as I acknowledge, Madden gamers need that control because the defensive options are limited. It's the same with offensive hot routes. We break realism in pre-play to allow you more options.

Same question. When do you tier the defensive play calling and scrap the band-aids? NFL defensive coordinators are not limited to "plays". They build schemes by combining fronts, stunts, blitzes & coverage. When does Madden get to that?

[Hova57]

Re: Madden NFL Designers Podcast #2

Honestly, If the reactions to the podcast are getting too harsh if they fed a really big bone to us the podcast and info would be taken differently. Such as telling us that they are use RTP they don't have to get into great detail , but tell us it will be in the game. Most would view info from here on out differently. or something they are doing to the defense. Outcry on here is a result of being in the dark and the feeling of not being listened or acknowledged. Giving a dog a bone in the early stages can do alot for this title once it is released.

[rangerrick012]

Re: Madden NFL Designers Podcast #2

Good that we're in agreement. Football IS fun man. I'm not saying it should be twitchy or unrealistic or offensive shootouts...that's not what I mean with 'quick and fun'. I'm saying the games shouldn't last 2 hours and they should be fun. They should still be realistic, they shouldn't be arcadey, everything should be as close to football as possible. But you shouldn't get 13 holding penalties and 5 false starts and take 2 hours to finish. Do you disagree with that?

I strongly disagree with that. I know you guys elude to 2K11. It's brlliant. They have Sim, Default, Causal, and Arcade settings, to let the user decide what sort of game they want to play. It'd be great if Madden had that. I'd love to play w/ accurate amt of Pass interference, holding, false starts. Everything we see on Sunday, right? I don't see how penalties are something that should not be in the game.

[ryan36]

Re: Madden NFL Designers Podcast #2

Wouldn't penalties be a ratio? x amount of holding per snap, dependent on what type of play , etc?

My things I hope they work on...some more nitpicky than others...
1) The hitch-step for things like the wildcat
2) Playbooks back to normal
3) Commentary
4) D-line play.
5) Play action

The play action usually resulting in a sack/hurry really bugs me because SO MANY of the pass plays in the playbooks are PA. I don't call 'em because I want to call PA, I call them because I like the route.

[Ian_Cummings]

Re: Madden NFL Designers Podcast #2

I strongly disagree with that. I know you guys elude to 2K11. It's brlliant. They have Sim, Default, Causal, and Arcade settings, to let the user decide what sort of game they want to play. It'd be great if Madden had that. I'd love to play w/ accurate amt of Pass interference, holding, false starts. Everything we see on Sunday, right? I don't see how penalties are something that should not be in the game.

ARGH I AM NOT SAYING THAT.

The point is that the DEFAULT settings should not have high penalty numbers and long game times. Period.

I am 100% in agreement with everyone that Madden should be able to have realistic stats, penalties, physics, locomotion, blocking, catching, etc, you name it. I'm just saying that the DEFAULT settings out of the box are going to be shorter games and less penalties. More sliders and customization and toggles are all means to get to an ultimate perfect simulation for those that want it.

[ryan36]

Re: Madden NFL Designers Podcast #2

ARGH I AM NOT SAYING THAT.

The point is that the DEFAULT settings should not have high penalty numbers and long game times. Period.

I am 100% in agreement with everyone that Madden should be able to have realistic stats, penalties, physics, locomotion, blocking, catching, etc, you name it. I'm just saying that the DEFAULT settings out of the box are going to be shorter games and less penalties. More sliders and customization and toggles are all means to get to an ultimate perfect simulation for those that want it.

Imagine OS misunderstanding what Ian says..that never happens!!!

But Ian , I think it would be awesome if the devs tuned the sliders into pre-packaged styles a la the arcade, sim...etc. So maybe default is all "50" but then when I flip one tab to "sim" I get speed threshold "35", Pass rush "55" , kicker accuracy "15" etc... that way we would have a pretty easy starting point to make the slider adjustments?

[Hova57]

Re: Madden NFL Designers Podcast #2

Imagine OS misunderstanding what Ian says..that never happens!!!

But Ian , I think it would be awesome if the devs tuned the sliders into pre-packaged styles a la the arcade, sim...etc. So maybe default is all "50" but then when I flip one tab to "sim" I get speed threshold "35", Pass rush "55" , kicker accuracy "15" etc... that way we would have a pretty easy starting point to make the slider adjustments?

Good post Ryan, I think thats how the game should modeled overall. you have arcade with ratings, playcalling and presentation to match that, sim and so forth so if you have someone that wants a tiered system for playcalling then they fall into that sim package, arcade pretty much would be one button push for everything limited playbook . then have a normal slot that would be the standard setup , with current playcalling, and penalties.

[adembroski]

Re: Madden NFL Designers Podcast #2

Ryan rephrases exactly what Ian said, Ryan gets the "good post" comment and agreement. And people wonder why Ian gets so frustrated:P

Not knocking you, Hova, you just happened to be illustrating it.

I think the thing that threw everyone was the way you guys were praising the "new direction" of EA's NBA franchise, which many took as your personal opinion of how sports games should be.

[rangerrick012]

Re: Madden NFL Designers Podcast #2

ARGH I AM NOT SAYING THAT.

The point is that the DEFAULT settings should not have high penalty numbers and long game times. Period.

I am 100% in agreement with everyone that Madden should be able to have realistic stats, penalties, physics, locomotion, blocking, catching, etc, you name it. I'm just saying that the DEFAULT settings out of the box are going to be shorter games and less penalties. More sliders and customization and toggles are all means to get to an ultimate perfect simulation for those that want it.

Ok. Sorry for the mis communication. Just thought that you were inferring that those elements, default or customizable, shouldn't be in Madden at all.

[PhillyJim76]

Re: Madden NFL Designers Podcast #2

First off, kudos to Ian (hard for me to say) for coming here and explaining the cause and effect relationship between various factors of the game.

I'd still love to know what tweaks and settings changes that the EA development team use for their own offline franchises (if they even have the time or desire to play them because after all, it is still their job and they need downtime).

I ask this because, say Ian thinks out of the box pass blocking is too easy...what does he change his settings to? They know more than any of us, we just all speculate.

[jeremym480]

Re: Madden NFL Designers Podcast #2

ARGH I AM NOT SAYING THAT.

The point is that the DEFAULT settings should not have high penalty numbers and long game times. Period.

I am 100% in agreement with everyone that Madden should be able to have realistic stats, penalties, physics, locomotion, blocking, catching, etc, you name it. I'm just saying that the DEFAULT settings out of the box are going to be shorter games and less penalties. More sliders and customization and toggles are all means to get to an ultimate perfect simulation for those that want it.

Ian, nice to have you back. Quick question...
Have you guys ever considered going with different game play modes for offline play? NBA 2K11 is sort of has this with the Sim, Default, Casual, Arcade settings. However, really it's just slider adjustments rather than a completely different game.

I'm at work now so I don't have a lot of time but here's some quick examples of what I'm talking about:

Arcade:
- CPU snaps the ball at a quicker rate
- Penalties are few and far between (kind of like they are now)
- Offense is a little more "wide-open"

Hardcore:
- CPU QB's like Peyton Manning use the entire play-clock
- Penalties occur at a realistic rate and you see every type of penalty to offensive pass interference to late hits out of bounce
- Offense run an offense similar to their real life counterparts

Default-
Somewhere in the middle of those two.

For example: I know some people would hate to wait on the CPU to snap the ball but, for other's they want the CPU to take longer so that they can make pre-snap adjustments and what not. But, if we can just get this as an option then everyone can set their own happy-medium an this way everyone is pleased. Same goes for penalties.

Is that even possible, or is it to much to implement in one cycle? Either way, I think you guys are heading in the right direction. So keep up the good work!

[rangerrick012]

Re: Madden NFL Designers Podcast #2

Imagine OS misunderstanding what Ian says..that never happens!!!

But Ian , I think it would be awesome if the devs tuned the sliders into pre-packaged styles a la the arcade, sim...etc. So maybe default is all "50" but then when I flip one tab to "sim" I get speed threshold "35", Pass rush "55" , kicker accuracy "15" etc... that way we would have a pretty easy starting point to make the slider adjustments?

Good post Ryan, I think thats how the game should modeled overall. you have arcade with ratings, playcalling and presentation to match that, sim and so forth so if you have someone that wants a tiered system for playcalling then they fall into that sim package, arcade pretty much would be one button push for everything limited playbook . then have a normal slot that would be the standard setup , with current playcalling, and penalties.

Agree with these sentiments.

[ryan36]

Re: Madden NFL Designers Podcast #2

Ryan rephrases exactly what Ian said, Ryan gets the "good post" comment and agreement. And people wonder why Ian gets so frustrated:P

Not knocking you, Hova, you just happened to be illustrating it.

I think the thing that threw everyone was the way you guys were praising the "new direction" of EA's NBA franchise, which many took as your personal opinion of how sports games should be.

AJ, I am very confident Ian knows what we want to be in the game, and he knows what would make it more fun for him. My comment was more in the way that customization was packaged. As a poster above said, if they're making slider tweaks , because they want more sim, a pre-configured slider set would be a way to know, "Ok, this is how the game plays right, in our view."

I doubt that the devs play M11 as it is out of the box.

For me, all I ever do is turn up user pass rush, lower kicker accuracy, and tweak fumbles when possible , because I hate the "cover" button. I think it's a waste of space.

[falconfansince81]

Re: Madden NFL Designers Podcast #2

first off, i thought the podcast was better than any of the ones last year and really hit some majors concerns and issues which is great to see you guys acknowledge. the recent increase in community interaction will only further better the game so i'm already pumped to see these things so far.

my question is, if the game DID have a preset slider set for sim/online (arcade) could online franchise managers choose the simulation route? we run a league called maddengroup with 11 franchises, all sim style members...and are ALWAYS wishing we could apply some of the great sim slider sets that people on here have came up with.