Why Limit Gamers?

[ChaseB]

I agree with the premise of the article but I think you're missing Ian's point. He went on to say that the "cheesy" exploits cause stability issues and that won't fly with Sony and Microsoft.

I didn't see any implication that Ian was against allowing "user cheesiness" as long as it doesn't break the game and look bad to the people who approve the game.

I would think this is the most logical conclusion as well even if it wasn't the reason Ian led with. I do get Chris' point though, and I don't disagree with the premise either.

[khaliib]

Chris, I agree.

On the other hand though, it's only natural to put limitations on things that your part of to protect the work that is put into it. We all do it in some way or form.

Prime example:
Something a Dev noted about their product that caused you to, "need to vent and ask some serious questions", inspired you to write this post, which is great for this community based social site (product). Yet within the same discussion that inspired you to write, limitations on the same "Venting" feedback are placed on the community to protect the work put in by yourself and other Moderators.

To protect the integrity of its product, Madden Dev's put editing limitations on their gamers.
To protect the integrity of your social site, you place limitations on gamers also.

ryan36 @ 11/22/10 05:44 PM
From the TOS...

FROM NOW ON, ANY AND ALL OFFENSES WILL BE MET WITH AN IMMEDIATE AND PERMANENT BAN. THERE ARE NO INFRACTIONS, AND WARNING WILL BE USED AT A MODERATOR'S DISCRETION, IF AT ALL.
(Yes there are lines, but lately any "NEGATIVE" feedback seem to be considered offensive)

***I hope this response is not taken the wrong way or seen as an effort to try and show anyone up. Not my intentions by the least and I respect and enjoy all the work that's needed to provide this avenue for gamers like myself.

I just wanted to note how we all may use limitations to protect what we put hours of hard work into.
Thus, I can see why Madden Dev's do it, eventhough it burns my "Jerry-Curl"!

[KingV2k3]

Re: Why Limit Gamers?

if you purposefully limit the experience of the gamer, then you are limiting their enjoyment of your product and lessening the chance they'll return next time.

Quit limiting gamers for no reason, give them the keys. You might be shocked what a dedicated community can do for a game.

The most customizable version of Madden (to date) was the PS2 version from 2005...

It was the last time you could fully "disassemble and reassemble" the Coach Philosophy and Sim engines...

The best example of this is Sm27's "The Manifesto", which remains (IMHO) the pinnacle of what the SIM football community was / is capable of...

That bunch was able to make all the teams play as close to their IRL NFL counterparts as possible b/c ALL the Coach Sliders worked...

You could alter HB1 / HB2 percentages, and the O and D AGG sliders made it possible to have that era's Philly D blitz constantly while Tampa's Tampa 2 chose to "read and react", etc...

The gameplay was excellent and the sim stats were the best to date...

The next year, the ONLY slider that actually "worked" was run / pass and as a result things took a HUGE step backward that has NEVER been retraced...

A bunch of the guys that made that "miracle" happen, got frustrated with the fact that it was no longer possible to reach this level of gaming excellence again, and have bailed off to play and customise the last PC version (2008?) year after year...

So to the quotes I pulled from the OP:

1) You would possibly be VERY surprised what a dedicated effort from dedicated games can produce (that could possibly be of positive future influence) and...

2) Limiting these guys enjoyment / ability to customize mos def resulted in loss of future sales as a result...

That being said, I love the fact that the devs interact around here...that was the number one thing on the sim players "Wish List"...to be heard...

Thanks for listening!

Happy gaming to all!

P.S.

Here is a link to Sm27's final thread from that year on "The Manifesto" that includes a word doc of how this was created and what effects on gameplay and the sim engine it had:

http://www.operationsports.com/vBull...-download.html

A shining example of the "best case scenario" re: gaming forums...

Instead of focusing on "It's Broken", the focus was "Let's Fix It"...

And EA affored us the flexiblity to do just that...along with Custom Playbooks in Franchise, Formation Subs, etc. that one by one all fell inexplicably by the wayside on the way to the "New Gen" era...

Oh well...those WERE the days...

Good times, indeed...

[RaychelSnr]

The most customizable version of Madden (to date) was the PS2 version from 2005...

It was the last time you could fully "disassemble and reassemble" the Coach Philosophy and Sim engines...

The best example of this is Sm27's "The Manifesto", which remains (IMHO) the pinnacle of what the SIM football community was / is capable of...

That bunch was able to make all the teams play as close to their IRL NFL counterparts as possible b/c ALL the Coach Sliders worked...

You could alter HB1 / HB2 percentages, and the O and D AGG sliders made it possible to have that era's Philly D blitz constantly while Tampa's Tampa 2 chose to "read and react", etc...

The gameplay was excellent and the sim stats were the best to date...

The next year, the ONLY slider that actually "worked" was run / pass and as a result things took a HUGE step backward that has NEVER been retraced...

A bunch of the guys that made that "miracle" happen, got frustrated with the fact that it was no longer possible to reach this level of gaming excellence again, and have bailed off to play and customise the last PC version (2008?) year after year...

So to the quotes I pulled from the OP:

1) You would possibly be VERY surprised what a dedicated effort from dedicated games can produce (that could possibly be of positive future influence) and...

2) Limiting these guys enjoyment / ability to customize mos def resulted in loss of future sales as a result...

That being said, I love the fact that the devs interact around here...that was the number one thing on the sim players "Wish List"...to be heard...

Thanks for listening!

Happy gaming to all!

P.S.

Here is a link to Sm27's final thread from that year on "The Manifesto" that includes a word doc of how this was created and what effects on gameplay and the sim engine it had:

http://www.operationsports.com/vBull...-download.html

A shining example of the "best case scenario" re: gaming forums...

Instead of focusing on "It's Broken", the focus was "Let's Fix It"...

And EA affored us the flexiblity to do just that...along with Custom Playbooks in Franchise, Formation Subs, etc. that one by one all fell inexplicably by the wayside on the way to the "New Gen" era...

Oh well...those WERE the days...

Good times, indeed...

Ah man sm27's Madden Manifesto! That made madden 2005 the best playing NFL franchise experience ever! Good memories!

[scottyo60]

Someone mentioned NBA 10 as far as customization settings... I'd like to bring up a live season. I know some people wouldn't want to wait from week to week to play their games, but i feel i might be more immersed in this at some point. Maybe as a alternate way of playing a dynasty or a way to start a dynasty.

[JaymeeAwesome]

If I remember correctly, when purchasing a video game you are buying a license to use the product the manufacturer makes. By that statement alone says they can limit whatever they want if they want you to play the game their way. If the purchaser of the license (game) doesn't agree with the constraints of owning this license then they will need to show the manufacturer how they feel by not buying into the game. It's the gamers fault and not the creators if every year they put out a mediocre title, because all they see is money and if the money is still coming in they will not try as hard to improve.

[KingV2k3]

Re: Why Limit Gamers?

Ah man sm27's Madden Manifesto! That made madden 2005 the best playing NFL franchise experience ever! Good memories!

Who would have thought at that time that a five year old title on a technologically inferior platform would still be The G.O.A.T. (still) to this day???

I have heard that the devs at the time were aware (and impressed) with that document, I hope that the current team is at least interested enough to give it a look...

It illustrates, not only your point of total customization, but also serves as a testament to the best case "cooperative effort" by a bunch of dedicated offline SIM franchise players on this forum...

[Palo20]

Someone mentioned NBA 10 as far as customization settings... I'd like to bring up a live season. I know some people wouldn't want to wait from week to week to play their games, but i feel i might be more immersed in this at some point. Maybe as a alternate way of playing a dynasty or a way to start a dynasty.

I'm all for this since I like to play with multiple teams and go along with the season. I would love this option.

[JAYMO76]

I totally agree with your write-up. 2K sports is an excellent example for user customization. We should have 100% access to global customization. Ihate seeing screwed up cpu depth charts. If the Colts draft a QB, let me go in and re-set Manning to be the starter.

[Dewie12]

Re: Why Limit Gamers?

It is all about customization. It is a shame Peter Moore axed all the PC versions.

So now the small percentage of gamers who want this are left to the consoles, which have all kinds of issues.

I agree that gamers shouldn't be limited. But I understand the rules the developers are working with Sony and Microsoft having say in the product.

That is why I continue to lament EA's neglect of the PC.

[rooney8]

Re: Why Limit Gamers?

It is all about customization. It is a shame Peter Moore axed all the PC versions.

So now the small percentage of gamers who want this are left to the consoles, which have all kinds of issues.

I agree that gamers shouldn't be limited. But I understand the rules the developers are working with Sony and Microsoft having say in the product.

That is why I continue to lament EA's neglect of the PC.

I thought pirates were to blame for that.

Nothing should be done to stop cheesing offline and ideally all the stuff done to stop it online should not apply offline.

[carnalnirvana]

Re: Why Limit Gamers?

gamers creativity in a 1 yr cycle would be bad for business if the next years product is not REALLLLLY different and better.

look at fifa(i wont go into details but i could) its not about the offline gamer, its about the online community and quick games played thousands of times per day........

i call it the COD halo syndrome, everyone wants 200,000 players online....

i remember reading in gamepro and EGM, dev's would envy the PC community creativity and craved next gen where they could give us the tools to edit and share, i remember xbox live being touted as the agent of player creativity trading hub similar PC gaming....them came halo 3 and cod 4, then fifa joined now the craze is about pick and play ability....

look at the patches, 3 offline components vs 10 things for online stability, its clear where gaming has gone, US offline gamers are now the dinosaurs of gaming.

i never play online because i dont believe sport games fit well with online lag, and people's mentality.....

there is a common trend in my games, sport games that play well offline are garbage online ex. nba 2k, PES online they are bad.. compared to the decent online of fifa, live and madden which are uhhhh offline. i have not played the show or nhl games cant comment on that........

if you crave online success OFFLINE will suffer

[Galarius]

I don't consider keeping a game more legit 'limiting'.........I am glad Ian Cummings is mindful of these things, shows a heck of a lot of thought

[jestep123]

Arent there rules set forth by the NFLPA on this type of thing? I honestly dont know. Even if not, while the premise of this article is good, I think it is flawed.

Someone mentioned earlier in the thread about devs protecting their work. That person was right IMO. To me, I wouldnt allow full blown customization simply to protect the integrety of the game.

I think Ian Cummings used an interesting word in "cheesing". That isnt an industry term I am sure but gamers have come to accept "cheesing" and associate it with "cheating" or more concerning to devs "cheap". Nobody wants their product to be branded that way and the fact is that if you allow the consumer to do as they please, that is what you are going to be looking at.

As mentioned, 2k games have done a great job of allowing customers to customize thier experience and IMO that does cheapen the game because it potentially allows for workarounds that would kill off the intergrity of the AI.

Most game companies limit gamers and I dont think there is anything wrong with that. Think of it this way, an author writes a book and they copyright it because they dont want you taking it, changing a plotline here or there and altering the outcome. I would like someone to explain how this is different.

[Cletus]

Arent there rules set forth by the NFLPA on this type of thing? I honestly dont know. Even if not, while the premise of this article is good, I think it is flawed.

Someone mentioned earlier in the thread about devs protecting their work. That person was right IMO. To me, I wouldnt allow full blown customization simply to protect the integrety of the game.

I think Ian Cummings used an interesting word in "cheesing". That isnt an industry term I am sure but gamers have come to accept "cheesing" and associate it with "cheating" or more concerning to devs "cheap". Nobody wants their product to be branded that way and the fact is that if you allow the consumer to do as they please, that is what you are going to be looking at.

As mentioned, 2k games have done a great job of allowing customers to customize thier experience and IMO that does cheapen the game because it potentially allows for workarounds that would kill off the intergrity of the AI.

Most game companies limit gamers and I dont think there is anything wrong with that. Think of it this way, an author writes a book and they copyright it because they dont want you taking it, changing a plotline here or there and altering the outcome. I would like someone to explain how this is different.

the difference is video games are more tangable. If you buy a book, you are free to write on the pages and thus you can change the plot. IT's your book, if you want to write on it and make the protagonist a sociopath you can. In video games, a lot of times if you want to play it your way you can't even though you paid 60 bucks for it. Online I see why you can't make things cheesy, but offline, you're playing against the cpu and a lot of times the cpu does things you can't, especially on higher difficulty.

For example, on NHL 11 the cpu passing is super accurate even when the slider is set to zero. If they didn't include a pass acurracy slider, then there's nothing you could do to combat that. That would be just as cheesy as setting it to rookie and jacking all the sliders in favor of human.