Madden NFL Designers Podcast #2

[KANE699]

Re: Madden NFL Designers Podcast #2

I have to strongly disagree, a lot of football fans have managed to find their way to at least one NFL game and if not then at least a college football game.


Both are pretty similar in the way they are handled on the field just the uniforms and speed of the game are slightly different.


Point is everyone knows the broadcast is meant to resemble tv but there are plenty of aspects broadcast trys to get to make you feel like you are on the field or at the game, much like the sky cam for instance. Hell the way you watch the games on tv are basically sitting yay high up in the stands with enhanced zoomed in vision.


I do not believe they do not understand what we're asking for when we talk immersion and broadcast, they just haven't quite nailed it just yet is all.

[tlc12576]

Re: Madden NFL Designers Podcast #2

I have to strongly disagree, a lot of football fans have managed to find their way to at least one NFL game and if not then at least a college football game.


Both are pretty similar in the way they are handled on the field just the uniforms and speed of the game are slightly different.


Point is everyone knows the broadcast is meant to resemble tv but there are plenty of aspects broadcast trys to get to make you feel like you are on the field or at the game, much like the sky cam for instance. Hell the way you watch the games on tv are basically sitting yay high up in the stands with enhanced zoomed in vision.


I do not believe they do not understand what we're asking for when we talk immersion and broadcast, they just haven't quite nailed it just yet is all.

Kane699, what are you disagreeing with? You think most Madden gamers have been to a NFL game? Network broadcasting does NOT make the NFL more immersive?

I never stated "they do not understand", I stated there has not been enough attention focused on these aspects yearly.

I don't understand what you strongly disagree with about my post. Maybe you are a Native American and didn't like my happy Thanksgiving reference. If so, I apologize. LOL

[at23steelers]

Re: Madden NFL Designers Podcast #2

Kane699, what are you disagreeing with? You think most Madden gamers have been to a NFL game? Network broadcasting does NOT make the NFL more immersive?

I never stated "they do not understand", I stated there has not been enough attention focused on these aspects yearly.

I don't understand what you strongly disagree with about my post. Maybe you are a Native American and didn't like my happy Thanksgiving reference. If so, I apologize. LOL

Well, they should understand. It's not like their making the first example of a broadcasting presentation ever! They can just look at all the games playing that week, as an example, or look at games like nhl 11, mlb the show, nfl 2k5, and nba 2k11. Everything is there for helping them improve and "copy" off of, they're just not executing to the quality we expect from them. They need to have it flow and make it come alive. (sorry for my wishlist comment, but I think everyone hopes for this).

[RGiles36]

Re: Madden NFL Designers Podcast #2

I do not believe they do not understand what we're asking for when we talk immersion and broadcast, they just haven't quite nailed it just yet is all.

I know that you have an inside track so to speak, so you're more informed than I am certainly.

But after the last two years, I'm convinced that authentic broadcast presentation is not on their agenda. I always say this: M10 was the year presentation was supposed to be blown out. Bringing atmosphere to Madden was one of the many focuses in that dev cycle. Well it missed the mark, but many of us gave a pass as it was the first effort.

In comes M11 and there was minimal improvement. Yes, the staff has added atmosphere to Madden. But you still don't confuse it with watching a game on TV. There's too many details to list as far as what they're missing -- variety is a biggie though.

NFL2K5 & APF2K8 have been out for years now. Both games did a great job of bringing presentation to a football game. Ian mentioned a few years ago that NFL2K5 was 'looping' in the studio, presumably to get presentation ideas. And 2 years later, fans are still regurgitating how they want broadcast presentation, not Madden presentation.

So why hasn't the team nailed it when they watch just as much (if not more) NFL games than we do? They have to see how games are presented on TV, and how Madden is a shadow of that. Where's the disconnect between what fans want in broadcast presentation & what Tiburon is giving us?

[kjjnesb]

Re: Madden NFL Designers Podcast #2

I just want a deep franchise mode and strong presentation that ties in more than anything... Makes me kinda wish the NFL Head coach series was still going.

[tlc12576]

Re: Madden NFL Designers Podcast #2

I know that you have an inside track so to speak, so you're more informed than I am certainly.

But after the last two years, I'm convinced that authentic broadcast presentation is not on their agenda. I always say this: M10 was the year presentation was supposed to be blown out. Bringing atmosphere to Madden was one of the many focuses in that dev cycle. Well it missed the mark, but many of us gave a pass as it was the first effort.

In comes M11 and there was minimal improvement. Yes, the staff has added atmosphere to Madden. But you still don't confuse it with watching a game on TV. There's too many details to list as far as what they're missing -- variety is a biggie though.

NFL2K5 & APF2K8 have been out for years now. Both games did a great job of bringing presentation to a football game. Ian mentioned a few years ago that NFL2K5 was 'looping' in the studio, presumably to get presentation ideas. And 2 years later, fans are still regurgitating how they want broadcast presentation, not Madden presentation.

So why hasn't the team nailed it when they watch just as much (if not more) NFL games than we do? They have to see how games are presented on TV, and how Madden is a shadow of that. Where's the disconnect between what fans want in broadcast presentation & what Tiburon is giving us?

Well said Rgiles. This is exactly what I was talking about in my post. Ian was kind enough to take the time to speak on some other areas of sim football in their podcast and I hope they address this. When talking about certain areas of football, it's very easy for the devs' messages to be misunderstood and/or misinterpreted. Like "sim" gameplay, defensive improvements, etc. With the question of network broadcast presentation, there would be no confusion, it's either in or not. There is no such thing as "almost" network broadcast presentation, IMO.

Out of all the things that have happened with Madden since the exclusive license, this topic frustrates me the most. Gameplay changes, franchise upgrades, customizable options and ratings are all open to interpretation. Different gamers have varied opinions on what they think would be good in the game. Presentation is the area where no imagination or spirited debate is needed. Network broadcasts are right there for Madden to copy. Im not saying they have to use an actual networks logo, just copy what is done in real life network NFL/NCAA broadcasts.

The entire notion of trying to do "Beyond Broadcast" in Madden when the game has NOT even done "Broadcast" correctly and completely, makes no sense. How can someone attempt to do something better before they have mastered the basics of it?

This, by far, is the biggest disconnect in Madden, IMO. In the video blog for Madden 11, the devs laughed about how bare bones the Extra Point and halftime show was in Madden 10. I thought that meant they would be upgrading them in Madden 11. Instead, they removed the halftime show and left the Extra Point EXACTLY the same for offline franchise.

Ask a sports gamer what is the biggest difference between Madden and other beloved sports gaming titles like NFL2k5, NBA 2k11 and MLB The Show. I believe the majority would say presentation. I think without question, basic gameplay is the most important part of any video game but for first impressions, it's all about the visual immersion.

I believe the Madden devs work hard to try to give gamers what they want, while also implementing EA mandated features. However, if they honestly can't see that Madden has been and is lacking in it's presentation direction, that's a problem for me. My hope that this dev team can deliver on major Madden upgrades completely rests on how they deliver on the little things in Madden 12. If they continue to refuse to, visually emulate network broadcast and have both commentators in the booth recording lines together, I'll be convinced that they have no intention of creating the type of NFL game I would enjoy.

If that happens, Plan B is to pray that the exclusive NFL license somehow comes to an end and competition is restored.

[KANE699]

Re: Madden NFL Designers Podcast #2

Kane699, what are you disagreeing with? You think most Madden gamers have been to a NFL game? Network broadcasting does NOT make the NFL more immersive?

I never stated "they do not understand", I stated there has not been enough attention focused on these aspects yearly.

I don't understand what you strongly disagree with about my post. Maybe you are a Native American and didn't like my happy Thanksgiving reference. If so, I apologize. LOL

Im disagreeing with this part.

[KANE699]

Re: Madden NFL Designers Podcast #2

I know that you have an inside track so to speak, so you're more informed than I am certainly.

But after the last two years, I'm convinced that authentic broadcast presentation is not on their agenda. I always say this: M10 was the year presentation was supposed to be blown out. Bringing atmosphere to Madden was one of the many focuses in that dev cycle. Well it missed the mark, but many of us gave a pass as it was the first effort.

In comes M11 and there was minimal improvement. Yes, the staff has added atmosphere to Madden. But you still don't confuse it with watching a game on TV. There's too many details to list as far as what they're missing -- variety is a biggie though.

NFL2K5 & APF2K8 have been out for years now. Both games did a great job of bringing presentation to a football game. Ian mentioned a few years ago that NFL2K5 was 'looping' in the studio, presumably to get presentation ideas. And 2 years later, fans are still regurgitating how they want broadcast presentation, not Madden presentation.

So why hasn't the team nailed it when they watch just as much (if not more) NFL games than we do? They have to see how games are presented on TV, and how Madden is a shadow of that. Where's the disconnect between what fans want in broadcast presentation & what Tiburon is giving us?

I think Ian did a good job explaining what took up a lot of their development time last year, a huge part of it was an EA mandated implementation of Online Team Play, I liked a lot of the changes they put into the pregame flow, but as we all know it can be repetetive. Point being, a lot of people don't realize that a lot of the stuff we see during games is the same thing, its just because we only see it a few weeks later that its not repetitive.


For example, think about everytime there is a sunday night or monday night game in Cincy and they show the guys at the stadium making the spaghetti chilli. That will happen multiple times in the year if there is more than one night game for the Bengals.


Prime example of that is what they do in game for Philly showing them making cheesesteaks, kinda the same thing.


Just because it's a different week and its not the same camera angle or maybe even the same person, you feel like its new and fresh everytime you see it. Possibly the best way to represent this in game (but is kinda difficult) is to give cut scenes multiple random camera angles so that it doesn't seem the same everytime going into game.

It's still not a perfect broadcast style and this I understand and clearly see, but they didn't spend as much time on it last year as they probably could of as they had a lot of other huge issues taking up a lot of development time.

[Phixius]

Re: Madden NFL Designers Podcast #2

That's why things aren't done or address, more time are wasted on other stuff. OTP on a game where many gameplay flaws still exist? OTP is pointless when there's still gameplay issues that's been untouched for the last 3 years.

IMO, Presentation can take a backseat, I want the gameplay to dealt with first.

Although it was limited, presentation was the least of my problems with Madden 11'. EA can add a much overlay they want but I can't take having a defender knock over in a two man tackling animation instead of interacting with it or having a player slide into a position in order to make a play rather than missing it for that said reason. If I'm out of position, then I'm out of position. I shouldn't have to make the game make up for my lack of awareness.

[KANE699]

Re: Madden NFL Designers Podcast #2

Again, OTP was mandated by EA, and the guys who work on gameplay like Larry in the podcast, was not working on OTP, therefore your comment makes no sense.


The gameteam is still divided into sections with each section working on different areas.

[Phixius]

Re: Madden NFL Designers Podcast #2

Again, OTP was mandated by EA, and the guys who work on gameplay like Larry in the podcast, was not working on OTP, therefore your comment makes no sense.


The gameteam is still divided into sections with each section working on different areas.

No, I understood the mandated part completely and I didn't read anything about two different team. You didn't mention that in your last post.

I think Ian did a good job explaining what took up a lot of their development time last year, a huge part of it was an EA mandated implementation of Online Team Play

This is what I got from your post and my point still stands regardless who was working on what.

[tlc12576]

Re: Madden NFL Designers Podcast #2

I think Ian did a good job explaining what took up a lot of their development time last year, a huge part of it was an EA mandated implementation of Online Team Play, I liked a lot of the changes they put into the pregame flow, but as we all know it can be repetetive. Point being, a lot of people don't realize that a lot of the stuff we see during games is the same thing, its just because we only see it a few weeks later that its not repetitive.


For example, think about everytime there is a sunday night or monday night game in Cincy and they show the guys at the stadium making the spaghetti chilli. That will happen multiple times in the year if there is more than one night game for the Bengals.


Prime example of that is what they do in game for Philly showing them making cheesesteaks, kinda the same thing.


Just because it's a different week and its not the same camera angle or maybe even the same person, you feel like its new and fresh everytime you see it. Possibly the best way to represent this in game (but is kinda difficult) is to give cut scenes multiple random camera angles so that it doesn't seem the same everytime going into game.

It's still not a perfect broadcast style and this I understand and clearly see, but they didn't spend as much time on it last year as they probably could of as they had a lot of other huge issues taking up a lot of development time.

I think you are trying to make the point that the dev team is going for "perfect" network broadcast style but hasn't got there yet. If that's what you are implying, I disagree. I believe someone from the dev team clearly stated a while back that they weren't trying to emulate tv. I think that has been a fail so far and is the main reason Madden is not more immersive.

If there were 4 tvs lined up in a row, with NFL 2k5, NBA 2k11, MLB The Show and Madden 11 displaying CPU vs CPU games, Madden would look the least like what we see on tv. The fact that a NFL game made 7 years ago, a basketball game and a baseball game have better tv style presentation in 2011 than Madden, which is based on arguably the most watched televised sport in America, should be unacceptable.

That's why things aren't done or address, more time are wasted on other stuff. OTP on a game where many gameplay flaws still exist? OTP is pointless when there's still gameplay issues that's been untouched for the last 3 years.

IMO, Presentation can take a backseat, I want the gameplay to dealt with first.

Although it was limited, presentation was the least of my problems with Madden 11'. EA can add a much overlay they want but I can't take having a defender knock over in a two man tackling animation instead of interacting with it or having a player slide into a position in order to make a play rather than missing it for that said reason. If I'm out of position, then I'm out of position. I shouldn't have to make the game make up for my lack of awareness.

Just to be clear, I agree gameplay is the most important aspect of any video game. Ian has clearly stated that gameplay upgrades are MAJOR tasks and take time to implement. In the meantime, I would like to see network broadcast presentation upgrades made EVERY year. I would think these upgrades would be easier than some others because the blueprint is already present from tv broadcasts and other video games.

[KANE699]

Re: Madden NFL Designers Podcast #2

The pre game flow is very very very much like a real broadcast flow showing the quarterbacks, the team getting hyped up the fans outside all of it is very much a lot like what a broadcast does at the beginning of the game, the only thing is, they need to work a lot more on broadcast elements during the game, other than that I feel they have the post game and pre game broadcast elements well represented.

[at23steelers]

Re: Madden NFL Designers Podcast #2

The pre game flow is very very very much like a real broadcast flow showing the quarterbacks, the team getting hyped up the fans outside all of it is very much a lot like what a broadcast does at the beginning of the game, the only thing is, they need to work a lot more on broadcast elements during the game, other than that I feel they have the post game and pre game broadcast elements well represented.

Honestly, it's mediocre at best. Grading scale wise, I would give the pre-game a C, during game D-, and post game a C-. The pre-game has to be more specific and talk about the keys to the game as well as key matchups. Don't just have QB-QB comparisons but any key players. Then during the game, have all the way through how the teams are doing, compare it to keys of the game, see which side of the field the offense is running to and passing to, and their success. Show stats on who the QB is picking on, on D, how well the online is playing with sack, hurries, and pressures. Talk about different story lines between the two teams, and the teams in general. During replays, have the announcers analyze it, and share their thoughts. For franchise mode, talk about their division and the standings and the standouts on each team. Just have everything flow. Then, half-time show adjustments from coach, and make the necessary adjustments to depth chart, game flow, and WR matchups. Then, post game, talk about the game, it's effect on the NFL, and just general thoughts including player / play of the game.

Btw, my favorite game presentation wise (not including announcing) is NCAA Basketball 10. Awesome presentation.

[GiantBlue76]

Re: Madden NFL Designers Podcast #2

Just to be clear, I agree gameplay is the most important aspect of any video game. Ian has clearly stated that gameplay upgrades are MAJOR tasks and take time to implement.

Yawn...

It gets tiring getting an excuse for why things are lacking. Everything that any company produces takes work. Customers don't want to hear excuses. It takes me time to make the 65 dollars it costs to buy the game. Big deal. I'm a software engineer too. If we told our customers things like, "That's too hard", "That takes a long time", we'd be out of business very quickly. That's a crock. What it really means is that they don't have the chops, they don't have the budget, or they don't want to invest in the effort. Or maybe it's just all 3. I don't hear other developers saying that. I saw 2k completely implement the ESPN name, likenesses, overlays and commentary into a game in one year. On top of making the greatest gameplay improvements in a sports game ever. I never heard them complaining. They also didn't have exclusive access to the NFL, unlimited resources in money and development, etc. etc. These podcasts are not helpful to EA or to the community. They are a turn off because it's just a session to give excuses.

How about finishing things you started. Pro-Tak (untouched in 11), Online Franchise (incomplete in 10, got story of server side so can be completed without a new version, 11 came out, still no updates, fixes, sliders, salary cap, etc.), Halftime presentation (untouched), Animations (look exactly the same). The list goes on. Note to the Tiburon guys... You can afford to be a little arrogant when your product is actually really good. Otherwise, stay humble and focus on what really needs work.

Madden 11 is a big improvement since Madden 06, but it's still a very lacking game. The Exclusive license is selling it, and it's wearing thin.