Madden Sales Down 18% Y-o-Y in October

[bearschicago]

Re: Madden Sales Down 18% Y-o-Y in October

^ Agree that competition doesn't equal a better game. However if Madden did not buy the NFL license and allowed ESPN NFL 2K series to continue, at least this gave consumers options. In the end, isn't that what we all want? To make the customers happy?

So if Madden continues to not improve while 2K is constantly the better game, eventually more will buy 2K not EA. IMO this will force EA to make a better game. Or continue to sell less with each new title.

[roadman]

Re: Madden Sales Down 18% Y-o-Y in October

Yes osmosis was a joke. Sarcasm would be a more apt description though lol.

You are missing the point. All TLC, and I are saying, is that competition DOES NOT GUARANTEE a better Madden. That's it. And there are people who post on here who think that if they had comp that Madden would be better GUARANTEED. That is just wrong.

You can bring up track record, or the past all you want, that proves nothing. Past performance is not indicative of future results.

I don't want to argue, because there is no reason to. This should be obvious. Competition does not guarantee a better game. Period. The people who think it does are wrong. If you aren't one of those people, then you are ahead of the curve. If you are one of those people... stop thinking that way lol.

That's all.

Where is the word guarantee coming into play?

I go back to a few post by me. I would think optimism is a better word then guarantee.

I haven't seen anyone state that bringing in competition guarantees anything.

I just don't think it's right to curb people's enthusiasm or optimism that there could be competition down the road. I don't think it's right to tell people they are wrong in their thinking, either. If that starts happening, people will be afraid to post their opinions, which is all it is.

I see people saying on here, competition will make the game better, but I don't think those people are guaranteeing anything. Anything can happen.

Optimism/enthusiasm is different than guaranteeing.

You know I'm a stats person. If Prince Fielder avg's 50 hr's per yr during the last 5 yrs, it would be well within my bounds to be optimistic that Fielder will hit near 50 hr's the next season. I'm not guaranteeing it, he could tank it and hit 35 the next year.

Good post, bearschicago, I agre.

[jbrew2411]

Re: Madden Sales Down 18% Y-o-Y in October

No one can say they know Madden would be better with competition. On the other hand we all know competition pushes for the best out of people. I coach high school kids. If I walk up to my QB and tell him not to worry he will be the starter next year no matter what he does then I can't think he is going to work hard during the spring and summer to improve. Why would he? The thing is when there is another company making a game that they have to compete for sales then they are forced to put out the best product they can or risk lossing sales/money.
It's easy to see that sales are down for Madden 11 due to it being a repackage of Madden 10. I know I didn't buy Madden 11 for that reason. Only the second time I didn't buy a Madden since 95 (08 was the other time). Gamers have become smarter. We demand better to justify the price tag. When they make little change then why buy a game. Updated roster is not worth the money. I will wait and see if Madden 12 improves the franchise mode. If there is not improvement then I will stay away again.

[dxhowe2k]

If I'm not mistaken, the NFL license is up for grabs next year. So, whether 2K Sports, EA, or Natural Motion comes up with a new football game, this may be the best year in SIM Football gaming. Look for Madden to be forced on major changes. The pressure will be on 2KSports because they've sat on the sidelines for years. And Natural Motion's Backbreaker II, who know's what they have up their sleeves with unscripted tackling.

[Only1LT]

Re: Madden Sales Down 18% Y-o-Y in October

Where is the word guarantee coming into play?

I go back to a few post by me. I would think optimism is a better word then guarantee.

I haven't seen anyone state that bringing in competition guarantees anything.

I just don't think it's right to curb people's enthusiasm or optimism that there could be competition down the road. I don't think it's right to tell people they are wrong in their thinking, either. If that starts happening, people will be afraid to post their opinions, which is all it is.

I see people saying on here, competition will make the game better, but I don't think those people are guaranteeing anything. Anything can happen.

Optimism/enthusiasm is different than guaranteeing.

You know I'm a stats person. If Prince Fielder avg's 50 hr's per yr during the last 5 yrs, it would be well within my bounds to be optimistic that Fielder will hit near 50 hr's the next season. I'm not guaranteeing it, he could tank it and hit 35 the next year.

Good post, bearschicago, I agre.

Roadman. You never said guarantee. My point was never that you did. My one, and only point was, that there are people, not necessarily you, that think that competition guarantees that Madden will be better.

It is those people that TLC was addressing when he made his comment, and that was the point he was making as well. To try and retort that, which you did, by bringing up other games and trying to show him he was wrong for thinking that way, either means that you do think comp guarantees a better Madden, or that you misunderstood what he was trying to say. I tend to think it is the latter. That was the only reason for my post. To try to better explain what his point was, which was unequivocally true, and quite innocuous, and to make you see that you shouldn't be arguing his point, because again, unequivocally true.

To sum up, competition does not guarantee a better game. That's it. It doesn't require anymore exposition than that. It was just a reminder to those that think it does. Doesn't mean, that I mean, you said that it does. Doesn't mean that I don't want comp. Doesn't mean I'm trying to crush anyone's dream of having comp. The statement that comp guarantees nothing, has no hidden meaning. There doesn't need to be a lengthy discussion about it. It is incontrovertibly true and was the only point that tlc was trying to make, to those that think otherwise.

Don't take this post for anything that it is not. It isn't written to try and belittle you or your points, or to be rude in anyway. I am just trying to say that this isn't something that you and tlc, or I for that matter, should be arguing about, because it is really a misunderstanding, and not a difference of opinion, which it seems that you think it is.

[Only1LT]

Re: Madden Sales Down 18% Y-o-Y in October

^ Agree that competition doesn't equal a better game. However if Madden did not buy the NFL license and allowed ESPN NFL 2K series to continue, at least this gave consumers options. In the end, isn't that what we all want? To make the customers happy?

So if Madden continues to not improve while 2K is constantly the better game, eventually more will buy 2K not EA. IMO this will force EA to make a better game. Or continue to sell less with each new title.

Absolutely, 100% true, but you are attempting to create an argument or discussion, where there really is none, which is what I have been trying to convey.

Comp does not guarantee a better game. You agree with that. There are those that don't. And it is to those that tlc's and my post were aimed at. If you don't fall in that category, then it should really be end of discussion.

There are obviously other benefits of comp, like having choice, and I was never, and would never, dispute that.

[roadman]

Re: Madden Sales Down 18% Y-o-Y in October

Roadman. You never said guarantee. My point was never that you did. My one, and only point was, that there are people, not necessarily you, that think that competition guarantees that Madden will be better.

It is those people that TLC was addressing when he made his comment, and that was the point he was making as well. To try and retort that, which you did, by bringing up other games and trying to show him he was wrong for thinking that way, either means that you do think comp guarantees a better Madden, or that you misunderstood what he was trying to say. I tend to think it is the latter. That was the only reason for my post. To try to better explain what his point was, which was unequivocally true, and quite innocuous, and to make you see that you shouldn't be arguing his point, because again, unequivocally true.

To sum up, competition does not guarantee a better game. That's it. It doesn't require anymore exposition than that. It was just a reminder to those that think it does. Doesn't mean you said that. Doesn't mean that I don't want comp. Doesn't mean I'm trying to crush anyone's dream of having comp. The statement that comp guarantees nothing, has no hidden meaning. There doesn't need to be a lengthy discussion about it. It is incontrovertibly true and the only point that tlc was trying to make, to those that think otherwise.

Don't take this post for anything that it is not. It isn't written to try and belittle you or your points, or to be rude in anyway. I am just trying to say that this isn't something that you and tlc, or I for that matter, should be arguing about, because it is really a misunderstanding, and not a difference of opinion, which it seems that you think it is.

I got it from the beginning.

I was only trying to show the other POV, not prove anyone wrong. If you think that on a message board of communication, I can't help in that area.

My bottom line is that I haven't seen anyone at OS post the word guarantee that Madden would be better with competition. I don't know where that word came form. Guarantee is too strong of a word. I'm speaking for other posters, not myself, when I feel that they feel there is optimism/enthusiasm for competition.

I'm not trying to belittle anyone, either.

This will be my last post on this topic. The topic doesn't appear to be on the same page for some people that are responding. I'll let a sleeping dog lie.

Edit- Lkg over the old post from last night and this morning, I know see where the word guarantee came from. I like TLC's, not a given terminology better.

As I stated before, not sure if posters that feel the Madden would be better with competition feel like it's a given. I would hope posters would feel optimistic about competition, and not think it's a given. I don't know and neither does anyone else, know, how people feel writing on a message board.

[Only1LT]

Re: Madden Sales Down 18% Y-o-Y in October

I got it from the beginning.

I was only trying to show the other POV, not prove anyone wrong. If you think that on a message board of communication, I can't help in that area.

My bottom line is that I haven't seen anyone at OS post the word guarantee that Madden would be better with competition. I don't know where that word came form. Guarantee is too strong of a word. I'm speaking for other posters, not myself, when I feel that they feel there is optimism/enthusiasm for competition.

I'm not trying to belittle anyone, either.

This will be my last post on this topic. The topic doesn't appear to be on the same page for some people that are responding. I'll let a sleeping dog lie.

I can't say, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that I have seen people use the word guarantee either. That is beside the point though.

It is beside the point, because I HAVE seen, people say in answer to the question of "what would make Madden better", and them answer competition. I HAVE seen people say that lack of competition is THE biggest reason why they think Madden is not a good game. I HAVE seen people say that the only way to have a good Madden, is to bring back competition. How else can you take those statements, other than to mean that they think that if there was competition, that Madden would magically be better? They don't have to specifically use the word guarantee. Their position could not be clearer, even if they did.

And there is nothing wrong with optimism, but there is also nothing wrong with cautioning against, or tempering enthusiasm, to a realistic level. And if anyone's optimism includes thinking that all Madden needs is comp, then yes, that is an unrealistic expectation. Competition MAY help, but it very well MAY NOT. Not saying anything more than that.

It's fine to give the other POV, but on this one single statement, "competition does not guarantee a better Madden", there is no other POV. That is a statement of fact and should be treated as such. Facts don't have POVs. Opinions do. If you think that there is another POV to that statement, then that adds more credence to my belief that this is a misunderstanding.

But it should not be an argument.

[King_B_Mack]

Re: Madden Sales Down 18% Y-o-Y in October

What's being lost in this whole argument is the fact that we have seen Madden WITH competition and the series was at it's best, now without it's at it's worst. Now does that mean that competition is going to automatically make the game better? Not immediately, but it will. Whether anyone likes to believe it or not, EA Sports is a company full of talent and the developers of the Madden games are good at they're jobs, you don't get where they are without being that. That said it's not like they're incapable of making a good game because we've seen it done before.

It's as close to a guarantee as you can get that Madden would improve with competition because Madden is and always will be EA's cash cow and biggest property. All the resources will always go to that series first over any other and if Madden is truly in danger of falling out of the top football game spot EA will do what it takes to keep it on top. If Madden was always the only game in town then arguing that competition wouldn't make it better would make sense because we have no history to draw from for that genre, however we've seen Madden when it's got other NFL games breathing down it's neck and we got the best of the series during that time. Using the NBA doesn't count for anything because Live has never been EA's baby, it's never been THE game at the company, Madden, NHL, MVP and Fifa have always been EA's priority. Live suffered as long as it did because EA didn't give a crap about the franchise as long as Madden, NHL, etc. flourished.

Bottomline it's not a slam dunk that competition will make the game better, however anyone saying that it will has more ground to stand on than anyone trying to argue otherwise cause two of the best NFL football games of all time are generally considered to be NFL 2K5 and Madden 2005.

[Only1LT]

Re: Madden Sales Down 18% Y-o-Y in October

What's being lost in this whole argument is the fact that we have seen Madden WITH competition and the series was at it's best, now without it's at it's worst. Now does that mean that competition is going to automatically make the game better? Not immediately, but it will. Whether anyone likes to believe it or not, EA Sports is a company full of talent and the developers of the Madden games are good at they're jobs, you don't get where they are without being that. That said it's not like they're incapable of making a good game because we've seen it done before.

It's as close to a guarantee as you can get that Madden would improve with competition because Madden is and always will be EA's cash cow and biggest property. All the resources will always go to that series first over any other and if Madden is truly in danger of falling out of the top football game spot EA will do what it takes to keep it on top. If Madden was always the only game in town then arguing that competition wouldn't make it better would make sense because we have no history to draw from for that genre, however we've seen Madden when it's got other NFL games breathing down it's neck and we got the best of the series during that time. Using the NBA doesn't count for anything because Live has never been EA's baby, it's never been THE game at the company, Madden, NHL, MVP and Fifa have always been EA's priority. Live suffered as long as it did because EA didn't give a crap about the franchise as long as Madden, NHL, etc. flourished.

Bottomline it's not a slam dunk that competition will make the game better, however anyone saying that it will has more ground to stand on than anyone trying to argue otherwise cause two of the best NFL football games of all time are generally considered to be NFL 2K5 and Madden 2005.

This is a classic cause of fallacy of causation. In other words, "There were better versions of Madden when Madden had competition, therefore it was obviously competition that made those games better, and if competition comes back, it WILL be better again guaranteed." Umm... no lol.

Competition guarantees, or "close to guarantees" as you put it, nothing. Competition guarantees nothing but choice. If competition guaranteed great products, then we'd just have great products everywhere there is competition. The fact that we don't, proves that it guarantees nothing.

You can give as many examples of competition "making" an EA sports title great as you want. I need only provide ONE example where competition did not result in a great game to prove my point. If you say that mating 2 black rabbits always results in a black rabbit offspring, I only need to show ONE example where this does not happen. You can show a 100 trillion examples where this does, but the ONE that I show is enough to prove that that assertion is untrue. This is the same situation.

EA has made many sports games, with comp, that were not perceived at large to be good titles, so to say that comp guarantees or even "close to guarantees" a great Madden, is just false.

And the last time I checked, Basketball was more popular than Hockey in this country. So why you think that EA doesn't care about Basketball but really, really cares about Hockey, I don't understand. It is just you trying to rationalize away an example of EA putting out a bad product, WITH comp, and saying, yeah that don't count cause they don't care about B-ball lol.

If people want to believe that comp would light a fire under EA/Tiburon and that they would put forth more effort, then I could some what understand that argument. I may not necessarily agree with it, but I would understand. But said effort, does not HAVE to produce great results. There are many games that are just plain bad, and it isn't for lack of effort.

Some people think that it will "force" EA/Tiburon to make a better game. Someone could hold a gun to your head and tell you make me a great Football game or else. Unfortunately for you in that scenario, it doesn't mean that you will.

Competition guarantees nothing but choice.

[kjcheezhead]

Re: Madden Sales Down 18% Y-o-Y in October

Competition would make a better Madden game simply by offering that choice. If 2k made a godawful game, Madden instant becomes a better game to the consumer without changing a thing because people will choose it over a bad 2k game. If 2k makes a great alternative, EA would be forced to make madden a much better game or go the way of NBA elite.

Either scenario produces a better football game for the gamers, at least in thier mind's eye.

[Only1LT]

Re: Madden Sales Down 18% Y-o-Y in October

Competition would make a better Madden game simply by offering that choice. If 2k made a godawful game, Madden instant becomes a better game to the consumer without changing a thing because people will choose it over a bad 2k game. If 2k makes a great alternative, EA would be forced to make madden a much better game or go the way of NBA elite.

Either scenario produces a better football game for the gamers, at least in thier mind's eye.

There go those terms, like "forced" again. You can't force EA/Tiburon to do anything. If they can make a great game, they can. If they can't, they can't. Nothing that the competition does will change that fact. Not by threatening to take away sales. Not even by threatening their physical person.

Your last sentence makes me think that you weren't totally serious with this post, but I'm not sure. In any even, comp will never "force" EA/Tiburon to make a better game.

You can't get blood from a turnip.

[tlc12576]

Re: Madden Sales Down 18% Y-o-Y in October

What's being lost in this whole argument is the fact that we have seen Madden WITH competition and the series was at it's best, now without it's at it's worst. Now does that mean that competition is going to automatically make the game better? Not immediately, but it will. Whether anyone likes to believe it or not, EA Sports is a company full of talent and the developers of the Madden games are good at they're jobs, you don't get where they are without being that. That said it's not like they're incapable of making a good game because we've seen it done before........

Se Roadman, this is what I was talking about, people that are convinced competition = improvement.

.......Competition guarantees nothing but choice.

Exactly!

Now, IMO, I dont see where competitors made EA produce something better.

Yeah they have innovated with competition but I don't think it is BECAUSE of competition. EA has "innovated" next-gen Madden without competition but that hasnt translated all that well into making it a better game, IMO. When I think of competition making something better, I think of one game doing something better one year and then the other game trying to outdo them in that area next year. Like if Game A had a better presentation than Game B, the next year Game B works hard to make their presentation better than Game A. However, that's not what EA does with its' sport titles. If a competitors game does something better, EA just tries to add something totally different to their game. That doesn't make much sense to me when we are talking about sports titles, both games are supposed to be "simulating" the actual sport. If Game A has a good tackling animations, Game B should strive for a better tackling animations, not "innovate" a new tackling system that's incomplete and looks WORSE.

I personally don't understand why some people think Madden 2005 or the NHL series were good games BECAUSE of competition. IMO, EA "makes it do what it do", competition or not. LOL

I guess some of you guys been asleep since the exclusive license happened or have really short memories. Im not talking about the devs but the powers that be at EA don't seem to even care much what EA consumers want in EA sports games, so I doubt they would let the competition dictate it.

Also, please spare me the talk about competition making Madden better because EA doesn't want to lose money. EA doesn't think like us average joes, if we were losing money from making something, most of us would try to make it better to attract more people. However, EA just continues to "innovate" their games to add more casuals and "monetize" their consumers, year round.

I think alot of us are nostalgic for the way business used to be but it's a new day my friends.

[tlc12576]

Re: Madden Sales Down 18% Y-o-Y in October

Competition would make a better Madden game simply by offering that choice. If 2k made a godawful game, Madden instant becomes a better game to the consumer without changing a thing because people will choose it over a bad 2k game. If 2k makes a great alternative, EA would be forced to make madden a much better game or go the way of NBA elite.

Either scenario produces a better football game for the gamers, at least in thier mind's eye.

I guess this is why I need another NFL game so badly. I don't compare sports titles DIRECTLY to each other, I compare how they simulate the actual sport in comparision. I could careless what ANY companies artisitc vision or "innovation" is for the game if it doesn't SIMULATE the sport properly.

NFL 2k5 is a better game than Madden, IMO, because of the ways it did a good job of simulating NFL football. If 10 different companies made NFL games, good or bad would be decided how well they SIMULATE the actual NFL.

[kjcheezhead]

Re: Madden Sales Down 18% Y-o-Y in October

There go those terms, like "forced" again. You can't force EA/Tiburon to do anything. If they can make a great game, they can. If they can't, they can't. Nothing that the competition does will change that fact. Not by threatening to take away sales. Not even by threatening their physical person.

Your last sentence makes me think that you weren't totally serious with this post, but I'm not sure. In any even, comp will never "force" EA/Tiburon to make a better game.

You can't get blood from a turnip.

It's like this, if I make my living selling coffee and someone opens a shop next door which offers better tasting coffee at a lower price, I have to adjust what I'm doing. I have to change my coffee, my price, offer free donuts, put my baristas in bikinis...something in order to stay in business. I'm "forced" to improve or go out of business.

If someone opens a coffee shop next door with higher prices, crappy coffee and terrible service...then my coffee shop suddenly seems a whole lot better to the customers. They stop complaining about the things I do wrong because my shop is better than my competitions.

Either way, the customers are happier than they were when my shop was the only choice. My last sentence was talking about this phenomena.